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Wild Olives and Torah

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by HARK!, Jul 14, 2020.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It has come to my attention that there are some Messianics (I've never met one in person) who believe that Wild Olives have no obligation to follow Torah.

    Let's see what the greatest Messianic cheerleader of Wild Olives, of all time, had to say about this.

    This is what Paul said to the Wild Olives at Corinth:

    (CLV) 1Co 11:1
    Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

    Hmmm...that doesn't sound very wild.

    Now Yahshua's whole ministry emphasized keeping the Torah, unto his death. Yahshua kept the Torah blamelessly. Perhaps when Paul says to follow him as he follows Yahshua, he means it in some other way.

    Did Paul really keep the Torah blamelessly?


    (CLV) Ac 25:8
    Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

    Unless Paul was lying; it looks like he did.

    So how can the Wild Olives follow Paul, the greatest cheerleader for the Wild Olives, following Torah, as he follows Yahshua, who followed Torah, and preached Torah, as he told us to follow his example; if we don't follow Torah?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
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  2. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ephesians 2

    11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

    Not anymore!

    12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

    Not anymore! Hmmm...covenants, plural.


    13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ."

    Citizens of Israel.


    (CLV) Hb 8:10
    "For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.



    14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier"

    No difference between those who were born into the false dogma of Judaism, and those who were born into the false teaching of Paganism. All of those in Yahshua are in the truth of YHWH's perfect Torah.

    15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, (dogma, Talmud) that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;"

    Israel!

    (CLV) Mt 15:24
    Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."



    16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it."

    (CLV) Num 15:15
    As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.


    17 And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near, 18 for through Him we both have had access, in one spirit, to the Father." 19 Consequently, then, no longer are you guests and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family,

    (CLV) Num 15:16
    One law and one custom, it shall come to be for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you.

    (CLV) Ex 12:49
    One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.


    (CLV) Lv 24:22
    The same judgment shall you come to have; for the sojourner as well as the native shall it be: for I, Yahweh, am your Elohim.

    (CLV) Num 15:29
    For the native among the sons of Israel and for the sojourner sojourning in their midst, one law shall apply for you, to anyone doing it through inadvertence.
     
  3. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞Steadfast Lutheran, Messianic leaning ✡ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    If they don't believe in following Torah to some extent, how are they "Messianics"? Wouldn't they just be run of the mill Evangelicals at that point?
     
  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My understanding is that to be Messianic, one must follow Messiah. Messiah followed Torah.

    For those who are considering being a Messianic, I would suggest checking out multiple congregations. That might not be so easy; because there just aren't that many Messianics. Within a congregation I've found a wide range of beliefs. Some would come over from other congregations that had broken up over issues such as the calendar. (This might sound silly from the outside; but if you're loyal to following YHWH with all your heart; it's very serious.)

    Some congregations teach crazy stuff; and you should run from them.

    I've found that everyone I've met, who attends a Messianic congregation is seeking a deeper understanding of the truth. We're all heading in the same direction; but we've all taken different paths to get there. In other words, we've all seen different things, and some have seen the same things from different perspectives. We can learn from each other's experiences. Some however, have more learning to do than others.
     
  5. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞Steadfast Lutheran, Messianic leaning ✡ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    Agreed 100%. But how do these particular people claim to be "Messianic", it is more than just a label. The implications are that one is trying, in some capacity, to follow a more Jewish-Christian path. To say that Torah is irrelevant to believers would negate even taking the "Messianic" label at all, to me. They could claim to be "Christians", but "Messianic" has more to it.
     
  6. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I pulled this excerpt:

    "As a Gentile, should I keep the Law?
    Rabbi does not believe that either Jews or Gentiles are under the Law. However, the Law is a self-revelation of the Lord and can teach us how to live by the Spirit as we follow Yeshua HaMashiach. Our relationship to the Law is not as those that are under the Law. However, we should study the Law and apply its Spiritual principles to our life. Because it is the self-revelation of God."

    From this link: » FAQ

    From this thread: Rabbi Kirt Schneider

    Notice the confusion that the Rabbi (Mt 23:8 you may not be called `Rabbi,' ) created by mixing terms. He's equating keeping the law, to being under the law. To the contrary, if we keep the law; we are not under the curses of the law.

    He seems to be replacing the keeping of the law, with studying the law.

    This is false doctrine.

    (CLV) Ja 1:22
    Now become doers of the word, and not only listeners, beguiling yourselves.

    (CLV) Ja 1:23
    For if anyone is a listener to the word and not a doer, this one simulates a man considering the face he inherited in a mirror;

    (CLV) Ja 1:24
    for he considers himself and has come away, and immediately forgot~ what kind he was.

    (CLV) Ja 1:25
    Now he who peers into the perfect law, that of freedom, and abides, not becoming a forgetful listener, but a doer of the work, this one will be happy in his doing.

    (CLV) Ro 2:13
    For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
     
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  7. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞Steadfast Lutheran, Messianic leaning ✡ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    Interesting, I can see it now, thank you for sharing the information. I don't agree with him, but I can see what he is saying.
     
  8. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    Not sure exactly why you have chosen an individual you do not know personally nor have had fellowship and conversation with.

    True,
    accordinding to a Jewish tradition the man uses the title of rabbi.
    And whether or not he is a Levi there is nothing wrong with doing so according to the prophets, Torah, and scriptures.

    With sound judgement the Man has been consistent according to Torah and precepts concerning manners.

    If you are looking for a fault in the title of rabbi used by a messianic jew.
    You will meet absolute opposition for doing so.

    Just as the rabbi has been quoted to say.
    "Neither jew nor stranger is under a law."
    (Law being a curse upon both as a partition)
    [Read the sop closely]

    Blessings Always
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  9. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because I find it disturbing.

    I'll just go with what Matthew says. Yahshua rebuked the traditions of men.
     
  10. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    Have you ever had and elder man or woman teach you?

    If I recall correctly there are a number of scriptures you cited concerning instructions from a mother and father.

    Teachers in rabbinical judaism are considered leaders whom walk in the way they teach.

    Any rebellion against such leaders of generations is frowned upon by Adonai.

    As a matter of historical fact.

    "The earth devoured them"

    Do you Understand?
     
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Was Yahshua in rebellion against them; or were they in rebellion against him? How about the rest of Yahshua's disciples?
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then I'm familiar with him. What does he have to do with the subject?
     
  13. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    Elihu is the familiar subject of the enemy.

    If you are familiar with such an entity then your days posting here are numbered
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm familiar with him from scripture; and you're officially off topic.
     
  15. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    Remind me exactly what the topic is?

    And motivation you have for starting multiple thread topics?
     
  16. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can find it in post #1.

    That would be off topic too.
     
  17. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    As I've said before ole friend,
    there is much to learn from wild olives.
    While a choice to cite ephesians 2 , is there ever a time of consideration found that relates to a personal relationship with The Lord of Host in your life.

    Would a consideration ever cross your heart to flee elihu the enemy whom betrays all mankind.

    Or is the feast of sukkot a goal chosen against The Torah and prophets written upon your heart.

    Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21 - Complete Jewish Bible
     
  18. pinacled

    pinacled walking with the Shekinah

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    לֵ֤ב חֲכָמִים֙ בְּבֵ֣ית אֵ֔בֶל וְלֵ֥ב כְּסִילִ֖ים בְּבֵ֥ית שִׂמְחָֽה׃

    Wise men are drawn to a house of mourning, and fools to a house of merrymaking.
     
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