Wigglesworth

[JimB]

I do not doubt that Smith Wigglesworth was a man of faith to be admired, even an example for the rest of us, although I am convinced that much of what we hear of his exploits are more legendary than factual. That is usually the case with charismatic figures (as we have just experienced with the Lakeland Washout, before the meetings caved in).

I do not know, or care, if SW had a drinking problem or not. If he did it would not effect my admiration for, or estimation of him. But the fact that he allegedly healed almost every sick person who walked (or was carried) on his stage does not explain his deaf daughter, Alice, who traveled with him after the death of his wife Polly (who was not healed), who was never healed or why his son, George, who died in 1915, was not healed, or why SW himself suffered from kidney stones in the early 1930's but told the physician, "Doctor, the God who made this body is the one who can cure it. No knife shall ever cut it as long as I live." He endured six years of pain before the stones were passed. Later he suffered from sciatica, which made walking painful and often, they say, he was more sick than the people he prayed for! At seventy-eight he ruptured badly and in 1944 he suffered a slight stroke.

Again, I repeat, none of this lessens my appreciation for him and, in fact, helps me appreciate him all the more. He was, after all, a man subject to the same problems we are, problems that “faith” alone does not always resolve, problems that may be the design of God: “painful” chastening, suffering designed to “train” us (Heb. 12.11 SEE HERE); a thorn in the flesh to teach us (2 Cor. 12 SEE HERE); “afflictions” which “work for us” more “eternal” values. (2 Cor 4.17 SEE HERE) . .




~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

 

[BenAdam]

Smith's value was in his spreading of the Gospel.

 

[Always in His Presence]

And yet Smith was called the Apostle of Faith!

I happen to own a very large collection of Wigglesworth material.

Not what some book says he said, but the actual transcripts from his sermons and quite a few of his hand written notes.

Much of what Smith taught and preached would be run into the ground and absolutely trashed by the anti-WoF people here.

Yes, Smith preached faith, stronger than Copeland and company.

• Smith refused to pray for people more than once, because he believed God healed them the moment he prayed.
• Smith once kicked a child during a healing service.
• Smith slapped a woman with throat cancer in the throat.

I can only imagine what he would say if he read half the threads that are here.

Remember, Smith is the one who said:

I went to a Quakers' meeting, quiet and
still, and there was such a silence that I was moved .
You know it is of faith, and so I jumped up and I
had the time of my life . All these Quakers came
round me and they said, You are the first man that
we have ever seen in this place who was so quickly
led by the Spirit . I said, If the Spirit does not moveme, I move the Spirit .

Smith Wigglesworth ~ Dominant Faith 1930

​

Can you even imagine if someone on this board or a well known minister said this today. Why, we would probably have a whole bunch of threads calling him a false teacher, watchmen calling the alerts and discerners shouting warnings. I could be wrong, but I don't think Smith would be invited to a whole lot of churches.
​

 

[JimB]

I admire Wigglesworth (though probably not as much as some) but I would not call him the “Apostle of Faith”. That label was stuck on him by Stanley Frodsham; not by the church. It was the title of a book. Somewhere beneath all the legends that have been created around the Wigglesworth I imagine there was a ordinary man whose successes were matched by failures.

All idols have clay feet.

IMO.




~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

 

[ARBITER01]

Can you even imagine if someone on this board or a well known minister said this today. Why, we would probably have a whole bunch of threads calling him a false teacher, watchmen calling the alerts and discerners shouting warnings. I could be wrong, but I don't think Smith would be invited to a whole lot of churches.

Knowing what I know now from GOD? There is no way I would accept such a ministry when there are way better examples of a worthy calling. Maria Etter's ministry completely overshadows Smith's, not just in power but in bibilical adherance, and it had none of the flamboyancy known for in Smith's.

Why was she able to walk it in power without the need to roughhouse people and such?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Knowing what I know now from GOD? There is no way I would accept such a ministry when there are way better examples of a worthy calling. Maria Etter's ministry completely overshadows Smith's, not just in power but in bibilical adherance, and it had none of the flamboyancy known for in Smith's.

Why was she able to walk it in power without the need to roughhouse people and such?

Mother Etter - the Evangelist from the mid 1800's who was convinced God personally called her to usher in the second coming of Christ? Did you know that? Did you know she had a multi-year verbal fight with Dowie who called her a false teacher?

There's always controversy with a nationally known preacher.

Mother Etter, what country besides the US did she minister in? Cause I don't remember her traveling outside the US. I could be wrong -

But to compare her to Smith's is a bit prideful at best
- different time - different place -
Smith was international - Mother Etter was not -
In Smith's timetravel was a whole lot easier

Smith never got physically attacked in his own meeting - Etter did.

Apples and Oranges my friend.

 

[ARBITER01]

Mother Etter - the Evangelist from the mid 1800's who was convinced God personally called her to usher in the second coming of Christ? Did you know that? Did you know she had a multi-year verbal fight with Dowie who called her a false teacher?

There's always controversy with a nationally known preacher.

Mother Etter, what country besides the US did she minister in? Cause I don't remember her traveling outside the US. I could be wrong -

But to compare her to Smith's is a bit prideful at best
- different time - different place -
Smith was international - Mother Etter was not -
In Smith's timetravel was a whole lot easier

Smith never got physically attacked in his own meeting - Etter did.

Apples and Oranges my friend.

It's not prideful to compare when the material is there for all to read. GOD points out a lot of things to people who are moving into ministries, why wouldn't HE?

Didn't you just compare it and stand up for Smith?

But anyways, maybe it is apples and oranges in the end, but I find certain individuals tend to adhere to scripture better than others in regards to their ministries given to them. Maria did a better job at it than Smith in my opinion, and I think GOD honored her greatly for all the troubles she walked through as a woman in that period of time.

 

[lismore]

He was, after all, a man subject to the same problems we are, problems that “faith” alone does not always resolve

​

I might be cynical but you say the miracle reports may be exaggerated, what if the illness reports are exaggerated?

The extreme viewpoint of people who want to suffer physically for God believing it is a way of serving God and thereby make themselves ill, Catherine Emmerich for example, what if these people have exaggerated Wigglesworth's illnesses believing every bit of pain is a holy affliction?

 

[JimB]

I might be cynical but you say the miracle reports may be exaggerated, what if the illness reports are exaggerated?

The extreme viewpoint of people who want to suffer physically for God believing it is a way of serving God and thereby make themselves ill, Catherine Emmerich for example, what if these people have exaggerated Wigglesworth's illnesses believing every bit of pain is a holy affliction?

Could be. We will never know. And that’s my point. It’s probably best to let Wigglesworth R.I.P. and not hold him up as an example. Shouldn’t our model always be Christ and not Smith Wigglesworth or anyone else?

For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves [Wigglesworth included]. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. (2 Cor. 10.12)

~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

 

[ARBITER01]

Could be. We will never know. And that’s my point. It’s probably best to let Wigglesworth R.I.P. and not hold him up as an example. Shouldn’t our model always be Christ and not Smith Wigglesworth or anyone else?
For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves[Wigglesworth included]. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. (2 Cor. 10.12)

~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

Yes it should always, and it should be what we look for in other people. Too many folks are giving a pass on ministries that have nothing in common with Him.

 

[Svt4Him]

Wasn't there someone who said "Follow me as I follow Christ"? Seems we like to vilify the forefathers to make our small ministries seem more important? Personally I think if the church had more fathers in the faith, it would be a lot more affective than it is now.

Mother Etter - the Evangelist from the mid 1800's who was convinced God personally called her to usher in the second coming of Christ?

Too true, and this is the type of thing we are to judge the fruit of. One of her meetings was called hypnotic evangelism akin to devil worship, or something like that...

Found it:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Dowie spoke at one of Mother Etter’s meetings in Oakland, California, and called her methods "trance evangelism." Liardon explains that Dowie "said it was something of the devil and it was the worst deception he had seen in his entire life."[/FONT]

Seems the fruit didn't look good to those watching it. Weird how we can see it so much better now.

 

[Always in His Presence]

6:35am
I do not doubt that Smith Wigglesworth was a man of faith to be admired, even an example for the rest of us,

5:17 PM
Could be. We will never know. And that’s my point. It’s probably best to let Wigglesworth R.I.P. and not hold him up as an example.

Just curious what happened in those 11 hours to make you change your mind?

 

[Svt4Him]

I'm discerning something here...

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm discerning something here...

You're just a little bit late,.. we already knew about bentley months ago.

 

[JimB]

Just curious what happened in those 11 hours to make you change your mind?

And this post is an “example” of how it is possible to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.

Let’s say that Wigglesworth is an example of how we should not follow men’s example.

~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

 

[Always in His Presence]

And this post is an “example” of how it is possible to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.

Let’s say that Wigglesworth is an example of how we should not follow men’s example.

~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

LOL

 

[Svt4Him]

LOL

Ha, at least you didn't get the "I don't know what you mean" line/icon.

 

[charityagape]

And this post is an “example” of how it is possible to strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.

Let’s say that Wigglesworth is an example of how we should not follow men’s example.

~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​

A gnat? I guess in the course of events it is a gnat, because its no big deal if you change your mind........but its a pretty big gnat in this conversation because you said completely opposite things which tends to make in unclear as to what your opinion is on the topic of Wigglesworth.

 

[Tenebrae]

And yet Smith was called the Apostle of Faith!

I happen to own a very large collection of Wigglesworth material.

Not what some book says he said, but the actual transcripts from his sermons and quite a few of his hand written notes.



Much of what Smith taught and preached would be run into the ground and absolutely trashed by the anti-WoF people here.

Yes, Smith preached faith, stronger than Copeland and company.

• Smith refused to pray for people more than once, because he believed God healed them the moment he prayed.
• Smith once kicked a child during a healing service.
• Smith slapped a woman with throat cancer in the throat.

I can only imagine what he would say if he read half the threads that are here.

Recently I've heard of Sws alledged violence being held up as an excuse to justify Bentleys violence

If Smith Wigglesworth attacked someone with an axe under the guise of praying for their healing, does that mean we should do the same. From what I've read of Smith Wigglesworth, he was an awesome man of faith. That said, he was human, and he was falliable. Just because he may have done something doesnt mean it was right, or something that should be repeated by those who come after.


The one we should be taking our example from is Jesus Christ. And as far as I know He didnt have the need to kick the heck out of the people He healed.


I have several clients who are interested in the christian faith and in the process of exploring by going to a church. Both of these clients come from very abusive back grounds, abusive parents, abusive partners, the worst sort of abuse, I know for a fact if they saw the preacher kicking slapping, or even shoving people, that would be them gone not just from that church, but from christianity for ever.


I dont care how many famous people have shoved or kicked or slapped people in the name of healing, its not right, and its certainly not how Jesus would be advocating for it to be done.

 

[JimB]

I agree. What is so compelling about a bully resorting to violent acts as part of the healing show, then blaming his actions on God—“The Lord told me to body slam the cancer victim”?

And people cheer such stupidity.

Stuff like this boggles the mind.

~Jim

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979​