Wiccan's in heaven???

Tsaxgurl317

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"I am a Christian and not a Wiccan. A Christian is one who has been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and who has made a personal, free-will decision to commit himself and all his or her life to our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Both of these things are true of me. I am a member of St. Mary's Eastern Orthodox Church, Calhan, Colorado. In this paper, I am not speaking as agent for any church, but I am, entirely on my own responsibility, speaking the truth in love, as we Christians are supposed to do.

A Situation of Strife and Shame:

There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion, a Pagan, proclaimed:

"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)

If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)

"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew 7:2)

"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)

"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:36-38)

Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things, will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace, which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either. The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works, nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right church. Rather, it is faith in God, and in His mercy:

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)

But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them Satan-worshippers are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it should. In the Bible we find the following:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, The One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)

The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!

For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1). You will find that, while the power manifested there may be less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is clearly the power of God.

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, these people of Wicca have been terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan, which they do not. We have persecuted them, and God will hold us accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)

Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our sins."

by james clemant taylor

is it true?
 
hahaha....well don't I feel like an eejit then!! I'm so sorry - my mistake!!

I think he makes some very interesting points, clearly you do also. I admire those who base their opinions on solid research, rather then then uneducated opinions & ascertions. I commend you on your own quest for knowledge & suggest the most powerful path you can follow is the one your own heart tells you to....
Blessings
Skyspirit
 
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oneiric

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Rae said:
Maybe, oneiric, they don't reject Christ but Christianity's flawed and inaccurate picture of Christ. ;) Just a thought.
Christianity's "flawed and inaccurate" picture of Christ comes straight from the Bible, the Word of God. This "flawed and inaccurate" picture of Christ comes straight from the words He said and those who lived, preached, ate with Him, and witnessed His many wondrous miracles. Christ said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Light and that no one will reach Heaven except through Him. Christianity didn't make this up for the hell of it. It was said by Him. And I believe Him.
 
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ByGrace

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You seem to have pointed out the source of your flawed thinking. You say that you have been studying wicca for a few days and the more you study the more it looks good. You are allowing the devil in to tempt you and delving into things that God has warned you about. Now you are agreeing with evil and disagreeing with Gods word. This is why you are warned about getting into occultic practices. It is of satan and will lead you astray if you allow it to. I suggest you repent and get back into the Word.
 
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Hmm....the word of God - thats your interpretation - (hense the flawed & inaccurate part of it) - in actual fact the bible was written by those who knew christ - not Christ himself, therefore they are not Christs words but the words of mere mortals. In this respect is not the bible a man made religion, based on heresay? Because of mans imperfections is it also not possible that there are indeed flaws in the Bible, inaccuracy & misinterpretation? Further to that the bible was not written in English & where ever there is translation (especially from ancient languages) meaning is lost & further, misinterpreatation can occur?

As for wicca being satanic, well if this beautiful planet that supports our very exisitance & all life as we know it, is deemed satanic, then hey - life itself must be a form of satanism & if life itself is satanism then sure I'm a satanist. Your lables have no effect on me because I know you dont know what you are talking about, clearly you know nothing of that which exisits beyond your own vision & your fundamentalism will ensure you never will. To each there own.
 
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oneiric

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Skyspirit said:
Hmm....the word of God - thats your interpretation - (hense the flawed & inaccurate part of it) - in actual fact the bible was written by those who knew christ - not Christ himself, therefore they are not Christs words but the words of mere mortals. In this respect is not the bible a man made religion, based on heresay? Because of mans imperfections is it also not possible that there are indeed flaws in the Bible, inaccuracy & misinterpretation? Further to that the bible was not written in English & where ever there is translation (especially from ancient languages) meaning is lost & further, misinterpreatation can occur?
So it is just a coincidence that all four gospels written in different places at different times by different people all are extremely similar to each other? What a huge coincidence!! I bet the many prophecies in the OT fulfilled in the NT by one person in detail are just a coincidence too, huh? The Bible is also backed up by nonbiblical accounts through people and events.

'written by mere mortals and men' proves nothing if it is God breathed. you cannot prove it isnt God breathed, and you cant prove it is. It is a matter of faith in certain aspects.

And if you can';t trust the Bible because man is flawed, then don't trust any history books, because they are probably lying because they are flawed according to your logic. Might as well not trust anyone ever for that matter.

As for the translations, you should read Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell if you truly cared for Truth. I challenge you to find a way to prove that the Bible is errant.
 
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Tsaxgurl317 said:
"I am a Christian and not a Wiccan. A Christian is one who has been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and who has made a personal, free-will decision to commit himself and all his or her life to our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Both of these things are true of me. I am a member of St. Mary's Eastern Orthodox Church, Calhan, Colorado. In this paper, I am not speaking as agent for any church, but I am, entirely on my own responsibility, speaking the truth in love, as we Christians are supposed to do.

A Situation of Strife and Shame:

There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion, a Pagan, proclaimed:

"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)

If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)

"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew 7:2)

"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)

"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:36-38)

Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things, will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace, which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either. The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works, nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right church. Rather, it is faith in God, and in His mercy:

"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)

But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them Satan-worshippers are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.

Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it should. In the Bible we find the following:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, The One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)

The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!

For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1). You will find that, while the power manifested there may be less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is clearly the power of God.

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, these people of Wicca have been terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan, which they do not. We have persecuted them, and God will hold us accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)

Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our sins."

by james clemant taylor

is it true?

If James Clemant Taylor thinks Wiccans are so close to Christians, then why is it that they don't simply call themselves Christian? Surely something must be standing in the way, or on Taylor's reasoning, they would all be attending church every Sunday.

Most of these verses are wrested from their context and twisted to mean what the author is trying to prove:

["Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12) ]

First of all, the Centurian called upon Jesus in Faith - this is obvious because he addressed Him as Lord, and told Him he was not worthy to receive Him. Jesus' declaration at the end means that Gentiles as well as Jews can be saved. Throught the Bible the Jews have been God's people by choice, thus they are called the 'sons of the kingdom;' they are the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and so forth. But Jesus makes it clear that you do not have to be a Jew to be a Christian. This verse can't be stretched in any way to prove 'pagans' can be 'pagan-Christian.' The centurion was obviously not a Jew, but a Christian nonetheless.

[Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)

"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew 7:2)

"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)

"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:36-38)
]

These are not referring to the criteria for the entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Where does it say that? I only see moral teachingd of how humans should act and forgive. This passage has nothing to do with salvation. John 3:16 adequately summarizes how to obtain salvation: by believing on Jesus Christ as your Savior. Furthermore, when Jesus was teaching on morality, He was talking to believers (Christians).

And since when are we saved by a requirement of works?? This is proof that James does not know his Bible, or possibly stopped after the Gospels. The NT constantly, over and over again says that our works cannot ever justify us - we are justified by FAITH. None of us have ever lived up to the standards Jesus set forth, so we need Him to forgive us and come into our lives. It is not merely a 'title' or signing on a 'doctrinal line,' but TRUE, LIVING FAITH in Christ. Whether or not Wiccans worship satan or not, they do not have this faith in Jesus Christ, which is offered to them, but refused. They cannot 'earn' their way to heaven on their own or in a Wiccan religion, but only through Jesus.

["Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, The One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)

The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!]

The inhabitants of Athens had no exposure to the Gospel. They knew in their hearts that there was an "Unknown God," and they wished to know Him. Paul filled in the gaps, revealing to them the Gospel message. Such a situation has no parallel with the Wiccans, for they know about the Gospel. God is no longer unknown; we have been given the Gospel and will be judged henceforth. Unless the Wiccans turn from their religion, repent of their sins, and accept Jesus as their Savior, they cannot call themselves Christian. For us to stretch the term so as to create some 'anonymous Christian' would be to make Christian revelation contradict itself, and render it useless.

The Bible clearly tells us who are Christian, and who are not. The path is available to all, but narrow. We are not to widen the path so as to lower the bar that God has set. Like I said earlier, Wiccans do not call themselves Christian for a reason, and we shouldn't either.

Kyle
 
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Rae

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So it is just a coincidence that all four gospels written in different places at different times by different people all are extremely similar to each other?
No...it's quite obvious the authors of the gospels attributed to Matthew and Luke copied the gospel attributed to Mark, according to mainstream Biblical scholars like Burton Mack and Marcus Borg. :)

I bet the many prophecies in the OT fulfilled in the NT by one person in detail are just a coincidence too, huh?
--They weren't prophecies of Jesus. Ask the Jewish members of this board...after all, members of THEIR faith wrote the OT.

...you should read Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell if you truly cared for Truth.
--I have. I have rarely seen such twisting and explaining away and presentation of such flawed pieces of "evidence" in my life (e.g. the Josephus interpolation, which is obviously forged, at least in part if not in its entirety).

I challenge you to find a way to prove that the Bible is errant.
--To one who is determined to believe it is without error despite the evidence, there is no way to prove that anything is in error. ::shrug::
 
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Quiet Storm

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*sigh*

This is why I NEVER go to the debate forum. Lies, lies, and more lies with nobody seeking truth, and the sad thing is that even some Christians are liberal in supporting them when the response should be, "NO! Thus says the Word with no compromising." Yes, we're children of love, but we're not pushovers. Jesus said that He didn't come to bring peace into the world, but a sword. Not saying that He came to intentionally bring strife, but He was saying that His word is uncompromising and because certain people want to twist things around and say things like "It's okay to sin or not accept Christ", it'd create strife with those who stand firmly on it without budging. Reply slandering me all you like. I'm not even coming back to this area of the forums. Just had to stick my head in.
 
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Well, if it makes you feel any better most Wiccans would not want to go to the Christian heaven. :sick:


Quiet Storm said:
*sigh*

This is why I NEVER go to the debate forum. Lies, lies, and more lies with nobody seeking truth, and the sad thing is that even some Christians are liberal in supporting them when the response should be, "NO! Thus says the Word with no compromising." Yes, we're children of love, but we're not pushovers. Jesus said that He didn't come to bring peace into the world, but a sword. Not saying that He came to intentionally bring strife, but He was saying that His word is uncompromising and because certain people want to twist things around and say things like "It's okay to sin or not accept Christ", it'd create strife with those who stand firmly on it without budging. Reply slandering me all you like. I'm not even coming back to this area of the forums. Just had to stick my head in.
 
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vajradhara

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Rae said:
So it is just a coincidence that all four gospels written in different places at different times by different people all are extremely similar to each other?
No...it's quite obvious the authors of the gospels attributed to Matthew and Luke copied the gospel attributed to Mark, according to mainstream Biblical scholars like Burton Mack and Marcus Borg. :)

I bet the many prophecies in the OT fulfilled in the NT by one person in detail are just a coincidence too, huh?
--They weren't prophecies of Jesus. Ask the Jewish members of this board...after all, members of THEIR faith wrote the OT.

...you should read Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell if you truly cared for Truth.
--I have. I have rarely seen such twisting and explaining away and presentation of such flawed pieces of "evidence" in my life (e.g. the Josephus interpolation, which is obviously forged, at least in part if not in its entirety).

I challenge you to find a way to prove that the Bible is errant.
--To one who is determined to believe it is without error despite the evidence, there is no way to prove that anything is in error. ::shrug::

Namaste Rae,

There is another theory regarding the synoptic gospels... the whole thing is termed the Synoptic Problem. in essence, so many of the same things are repeated in the synoptic gosples that they were given the name "synoptic gospels" :) the theory that i've seen advanced pretty convincingly is the Q theory. this theory basically states that there was a source document (hence the name Q, source in german is Quelle) that Mark used and then Luke and Matthew composed theirs based on Mark. this accounts for the differences in the narritive quite well.

it should be noted that there are other, equally valid theories on the Synoptic Problem.
 
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