Why... ?

CShephard53 · Oct 10, 2007

KCDAD said:
Your opinion, based on nothing but your thoughts, is not evidence.

I've given evidence- objective, originating with an objective source. Yet you accuse me of being subjective.

Let me say this: If you're going to deny evidence, fine. But don't try to make me look like an idiot when you do. It's rude, and loses you credibility... this is a debate thread. The purpose is to debate, not be ignorant or rude towards other's evidence and points.

Both Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel got their info from legit sources, coming at it objectively. That is where I've gotten 90% of the info on history and the Bible's reliability that I've posted.

KCDAD · Oct 10, 2007

Tawhano said:
Can you provide the source in which you came to the conclusion that Satan was a god to the Hebrews?

You seem pretty sure of yourself; care to provide the proof that they were wrong?

There were other godsfalse godsobjects and concepts that man made into gods. They werent really gods at all in the sense that God is a god.

This argument would hold weight if the word God was first written in English but it was not. El in the plural form Elohim was how the one and only true god was referenced in the Old Testament. This is why translators translated the word into the English word God instead of Gods.

Come let us reason together...
Whether satan ("the adversary") was a God or not is irrelevant. What is important is that the Hebrews believed there were other Gods that were not as great as their God, and this belief allows the understanding that satan might actually be Satan.
Recall all the stories of testing one or another God against the Hebrews' God. (The altar fires, the staves and snakes, etc)

...the sun does not move across the sky, the sky moves across the sun. If that process stopped, the entire contents of this planet would continue flying eastward at around 1000 miles per hour... among many other physical occurences. Donkeys do not have the physical vocal or neural structures required for speech... there isn't a miracle available for God to perform to make a donkey talk. The idea that a hero could slay an entire army with a jawbone is incoceivable. It is worse than those kung foolish movies where the hero kicks the beejeebies out of ten guys in a circle who attack him one at a time rather than in force. If blood is such a pure and cleaning spiritual agent, why is it that for women it is a sign of uncleanliness? Leprosy is NOT contageous. Demons do not cause mental illness. We learned that 200 yers ago when they stopped bleeding and leeching sick people.

El in the plural form of Elohim was the name of the Babylonian Supreme God and Yah was his son...

Re: Elohim: According to you we don't have a God that we worship, but Gods? Is that your explanation of the trinity? Plural Gods?

False gods... uh huh. Idolatry. Sort of like putting the Bible before reality... a man made object before God's creation.

KCDAD · Oct 10, 2007

jawsmetroid said:
I've given evidence- objective, originating with an objective source. Yet you accuse me of being subjective.

Let me say this: If you're going to deny evidence, fine. But don't try to make me look like an idiot when you do. It's rude, and loses you credibility... this is a debate thread. The purpose is to debate, not be ignorant or rude towards other's evidence and points.

Both Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel got their info from legit sources, coming at it objectively. That is where I've gotten 90% of the info on history and the Bible's reliability that I've posted.

I am very familiar with Josh McDowell but not Strobel. Evidence That Demands a Verdict was an important book in my spiritual journey. Fortunately, I investigated his sources and did my own research and found many of his premises and conclusion faulty and biased. It is the same mentality that uses the Shroud of Turin and the sarcophagus of James as evidence of Jesus... even though one has been proven not to be authentic and other unrelated to Jesus of Nazareth.

CShephard53 · Oct 10, 2007

Yes, what's that supposed to prove exactly?

Tawhano · Oct 10, 2007

KCDAD said:
Come let us reason together...
Whether satan ("the adversary") was a God or not is irrelevant. What is important is that the Hebrews believed there were other Gods that were not as great as their God, and this belief allows the understanding that satan might actually be Satan.
Recall all the stories of testing one or another God against the Hebrews' God. (The altar fires, the staves and snakes, etc)

Why did you mention Satan as a god then if it is irrelevant? Regardless if the Hebrews thought the other gods were real or not the Bible stories serve to show that they werent. That was the message of the stories about the altar fires, staves and snakes, etc.

KCDAD said:
...the sun does not move across the sky, the sky moves across the sun. If that process stopped, the entire contents of this planet would continue flying eastward at around 1000 miles per hour... among many other physical occurences.

Source for this please? The sun moves across the sky in our perspective because the earth rotates on its axis. This rotation is not the source of gravity. See http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/circles/u6l3c.html

KCDAD said:
Donkeys do not have the physical vocal or neural structures required for speech... there isn't a miracle available for God to perform to make a donkey talk.

This isnt what I was asking. I asked for proof this didnt happen. What makes you think there has to be a certain sort of miracle to perform this action? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. By definition a miracle is a miracle because it is unexplainable and shouldnt have been able to occur in the normal circumstances.

KCDAD said:
The idea that a hero could slay an entire army with a jawbone is incoceivable. It is worse than those kung foolish movies where the hero kicks the beejeebies out of ten guys in a circle who attack him one at a time rather than in force.

Thats it? That is your proof? You think it is inconceivable so therefore it is wrong?

KCDAD said:
If blood is such a pure and cleaning spiritual agent, why is it that for women it is a sign of uncleanliness?

Diseases are spread through blood.

KCDAD said:
Leprosy is NOT contageous.

Leprosy is a slightly contageous disease caused by a tiny rod-like germ called Mycobacterium Leprae (M.leprae) . It was first discovered by Dr. G.A. Hansen in 1873.(http://www.webspawner.com/users/PRASHAN/)

KCDAD said:
Demons do not cause mental illness. We learned that 200 yers ago when they stopped bleeding and leeching sick people.

Bleeding and leeching sick people is a valid medical practice still today. Again, I asked for proof and you give me your opinion. Where is the proof? Also how did we go from Demons possessing people to Demons do not cause mental illness? I dont think I mentioned it, did you?

KCDAD said:
El in the plural form of Elohim was the name of the Babylonian Supreme God and Yah was his son...

And this has exactly what to do with what I said? I cant find any information to support your claim, do you have one?

KCDAD said:
Re: Elohim: According to you we don't have a God that we worship, but Gods? Is that your explanation of the trinity? Plural Gods?

No idea what this is suppose to mean since it isnt a quote of anything I said.

KCDAD said:
False gods... uh huh. Idolatry. Sort of like putting the Bible before reality... a man made object before God's creation.

If this is an accusation aimed at me it is baseless and offensive.

I find it amusing that you said to jawsmetroid Your opinion, based on nothing but your thoughts, is not evidence. and have absolutely nothing to offer but your opinion, based on nothing but your thoughts.

KCDAD · Oct 10, 2007

Proof that it didn't happen? Are you kidding? Donkeys can not and will not and do not talk. (Except when running for political office)Period. There is your proof.
The principle involved in the Earth stopping its rotation is inertia, not gravity.
There is no such thing as a demon. If there is, find one and produce him.
Did you know write that Elohim is plural?
I find it amusing that you claim you are offended. I think the correct word is defensive.

CShephard53 · Oct 10, 2007

Proof that it didn't happen? Are you kidding? Donkeys can not and will not and do not talk. (Except when running for political office)Period. There is your proof.

That's not proof of anything, especially when you have a reliable historical document disagreeing with you.

The principle involved in the Earth stopping its rotation is inertia, not gravity.

That proves nothing.

There is no such thing as a demon. If there is, find one and produce him.

You assume based on what? Observation? Feeling? I go by fact.

Did you know write that Elohim is plural?

You've said this already. You have no point behind it.

I find it amusing that you claim you are offended. I think the correct word is defensive.

Who exactly are you talking to?

Seriously, if you're going to argue, do it right.

KCDAD · Oct 10, 2007

jawsmetroid said:
That's not proof of anything, especially when you have a reliable historical document disagreeing with you.

That proves nothing.

You assume based on what? Observation? Feeling? I go by fact.

You've said this already. You have no point behind it.

Who exactly are you talking to?

Seriously, if you're going to argue, do it right.

Apparently you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you.
The fact is donkeys can not talk. If there is one that talks, produce it, and show how it is possible.
The Earth can not stop rotating. That is a fact.
If there is a demon, produce it. The fact is, there is no such thing.

If a donkey can talk, if the Earth can stop on its axis, if there are demons, it should be an easy thing to PROVE it. That then would be a fact.

The "reliable" document is YOUR opinion. There is no proof of the Bible being reliable for anything. There is not even ONE single authentic copy of the Bible. There are Coptic editions, Greek Orthodox editions, Catholic editions, Jehovah Witness editions, ad nauseum.

Read slowly... the Bible says God is plural... Gods. Not monotheism, polytheism. Not one God, but many, and they talk to each other. That is how reliable your Bible is.

CShephard53 · Oct 10, 2007

KCDAD said:
Apparently you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you.
The fact is donkeys can not talk. If there is one that talks, produce it, and show how it is possible.
The Earth can not stop rotating. That is a fact.
If there is a demon, produce it. The fact is, there is no such thing.

If a donkey can talk, if the Earth can stop on its axis, if there are demons, it should be an easy thing to PROVE it. That then would be a fact.

The "reliable" document is YOUR opinion. There is no proof of the Bible being reliable for anything. There is not even ONE single authentic copy of the Bible. There are Coptic editions, Greek Orthodox editions, Catholic editions, Jehovah Witness editions, ad nauseum.

Read slowly... the Bible says God is plural... Gods. Not monotheism, polytheism. Not one God, but many, and they talk to each other. That is how reliable your Bible is.

My Bible? I'll note to you yet again that everything you've spewed in that post is subjective opinion. I've given evidence that you have not refuted. You've made claims, that have no backing to them. And if you're going to use the word 'prove' it shows that you can't win an argument yourself, you have to rely on semantics to win it for you. No one can prove anything, but one can give evidence to have something be true beyond a reasonable doubt, which is what both I and another have done on this thread. You've ignored it claiming that you're right and we're wrong. That doesn't fly in debate.

CShephard53 · Oct 10, 2007

Apparently you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you.

Sarcastic assumptions? I didn't think you'd sink that low in a debate.

The fact is donkeys can not talk. If there is one that talks, produce it, and show how it is possible.
The Earth can not stop rotating. That is a fact.
If there is a demon, produce it. The fact is, there is no such thing.

It's only theory unless it can be observed every single time, and it hasn't. There's reasonable doubt.

If a donkey can talk, if the Earth can stop on its axis, if there are demons, it should be an easy thing to PROVE it. That then would be a fact.

Your premises are appallingly flawed. You assume that such things can be proven on demand. God doesn't work that way. Read the Gospels, you'll find Jesus answers for those who ask for miracles.

The "reliable" document is YOUR opinion. There is no proof of the Bible being reliable for anything. There is not even ONE single authentic copy of the Bible. There are Coptic editions, Greek Orthodox editions, Catholic editions, Jehovah Witness editions, ad nauseum.

Original language. You have no basis for your claim. I've given evidence that you never refuted or laid claims to.

Read slowly... the Bible says God is plural... Gods. Not monotheism, polytheism. Not one God, but many, and they talk to each other. That is how reliable your Bible is.

That's your opinion, it ignores the Trinity doctrine. I've said that and you've ignored it.

KCDAD · Oct 10, 2007

jawsmetroid;39644278Sarcastic assumptions? I didn't think you'd sink that low in a debate.

Surprise... sometimes someone has to sink to the intellectual level of the person one is conversing with.

It's only theory unless it can be observed every single time, and it hasn't. There's reasonable doubt.

Do you know what reasonable means? Donkeys have no vocal chords... they can not speak. There is no reasonable anything in that assertion.

Your premises are appallingly flawed. You assume that such things can be proven on demand. God doesn't work that way. Read the Gospels, you'll find Jesus answers for those who ask for miracles.

REALLY? Name one instance in the Bible where Jesus answered a prayer.

Original language. You have no basis for your claim. I've given evidence that you never refuted or laid claims to.

Then prove that it is a possibility. You don't have to prove it happened... just show how it COULD happen.

That's your opinion, it ignores the Trinity doctrine. I've said that and you've ignored it.

The trinity doctrine does not say there are plural Gods. The Bible, specifically Genesis, does.

CShephard53 · Oct 10, 2007

REALLY? Name one instance in the Bible where Jesus answered a prayer.

Off topic much? I was talking about Jesus answering those who ask for miracles... and how he answers them. Matthew 16:1-4. Read it.

Do you know what reasonable means? Donkeys have no vocal chords... they can not speak. There is no reasonable anything in that assertion.

You do realize it was the angel speaking through the donkey? And that anything is possible with God? Very plausible and reasonable.

Then prove that it is a possibility. You don't have to prove it happened... just show how it COULD happen.

I've already done that, and you've ignored it. Why would now be any different?

The trinity doctrine does not say there are plural Gods. The Bible, specifically Genesis, does.

Trinity doctrine states there are three persons of God- Father, Son, Spirit. It never claims that there are more than one true God. It does claim that there are such things as false gods... I don't know what your point is here, but you're not making it very well.

Do you have any objective arguments? Any at all?

KCDAD · Oct 11, 2007

jawsmetroid said:
Off topic much? I was talking about Jesus answering those who ask for miracles... and how he answers them. Matthew 16:1-4. Read it.

You do realize it was the angel speaking through the donkey? And that anything is possible with God? Very plausible and reasonable.

I've already done that, and you've ignored it. Why would now be any different?

Trinity doctrine states there are three persons of God- Father, Son, Spirit. It never claims that there are more than one true God. It does claim that there are such things as false gods... I don't know what your point is here, but you're not making it very well.

Do you have any objective arguments? Any at all?

Jesus doesn't answer prayers... it isn't his job. You brought it up... now let's see you provide "evidence" of your claim. You already have my position; Jesus doesn't answer prayer... now it is your turn.

KCDAD · Oct 11, 2007

jawsmetroid said:
Off topic much? I was talking about Jesus answering those who ask for miracles... and how he answers them. Matthew 16:1-4. Read it.

You do realize it was the angel speaking through the donkey? And that anything is possible with God? Very plausible and reasonable.

I've already done that, and you've ignored it. Why would now be any different?

Trinity doctrine states there are three persons of God- Father, Son, Spirit. It never claims that there are more than one true God. It does claim that there are such things as false gods... I don't know what your point is here, but you're not making it very well.

Do you have any objective arguments? Any at all?

Anything is possible with God? Do you really mean that? God can create impossible things like square circles and rocks so big he can't move them, and see= through people, and time travel... God can hate and destroy, God can lie and deceive, God can condemn and torture...?
Angels can talk? Want to try to explain how an incorporeal entity can talk? Talking is a unique ability that is totally dependent upon physical structures in the throat and nouth and the language processing centers of the brain. Angels have mouths, throats and brains? They breathe? PLEASE, be reasonable.

KCDAD · Oct 11, 2007

jawsmetroid said:
Off topic much? I was talking about Jesus answering those who ask for miracles... and how he answers them. Matthew 16:1-4. Read it.

You do realize it was the angel speaking through the donkey? And that anything is possible with God? Very plausible and reasonable.

I've already done that, and you've ignored it. Why would now be any different?

Trinity doctrine states there are three persons of God- Father, Son, Spirit. It never claims that there are more than one true God. It does claim that there are such things as false gods... I don't know what your point is here, but you're not making it very well.

Do you have any objective arguments? Any at all?

Saying it could happen is not the same as showing HOW it could happen. How is a scientific question. It requires information, not opinion.

Tawhano · Oct 11, 2007

KCDAD said:
Proof that it didn't happen? Are you kidding? Donkeys can not and will not and do not talk. (Except when running for political office)Period. There is your proof.

Proving my point that you have nothing but your opinion, based on nothing but your thoughts which proves nothing except that you hold your opinion in high regard over others which you dismiss because somehow you are more in tune with reality than they are.

KCDAD said:
The principle involved in the Earth stopping its rotation is inertia, not gravity.

This still does nothing to back up your claim that If that process stopped, the entire contents of this planet would continue flying eastward at around 1000 miles per hour. Your claim is false and shows that you know nothing about what you speak of.

KCDAD said:
There is no such thing as a demon. If there is, find one and produce him.

I asked for proof and you have none so now you try and shift the focus away from your lack of evidence that anything you say is based on anything more than your opinion, based on nothing but your thoughts, which proves nothing.

KCDAD said:
Did you know write that Elohim is plural?

Im not sure if this is a typo or just more nonsense. I do know that you have consistently ignored my request for proof and this is no exception. Do you or do you not have proof that El in the plural form of Elohim was the name of the Babylonian Supreme God and Yah was his son...?

KCDAD said:
I find it amusing that you claim you are offended. I think the correct word is defensive.

Nope Im sure I am offended by your comment. It is like anywhere I go on this forum; people assume that because you hold a different view than them then you must believe the same way as all the others they debate with. Your comment placed me in a group that believes the bible being inspired of God must also be inerrant and your view that these people must therefore worship the bible. I find this view very offensive. I have told you nothing about what I believe about the bible or anything else; I am simply pointing out the fallacy in your views. You have nothing substantial to offer to this thread.

KCDAD · Oct 11, 2007

Tawhano said:
Proving my point that you have nothing but your opinion, based on nothing but your thoughts which proves nothing except that you hold your opinion in high regard over others which you dismiss because somehow you are more in tune with reality than they are.

This still does nothing to back up your claim that If that process stopped, the entire contents of this planet would continue flying eastward at around 1000 miles per hour. Your claim is false and shows that you know nothing about what you speak of.

I asked for proof and you have none so now you try and shift the focus away from your lack of evidence that anything you say is based on anything more than your opinion, based on nothing but your thoughts, which proves nothing.

Im not sure if this is a typo or just more nonsense. I do know that you have consistently ignored my request for proof and this is no exception. Do you or do you not have proof that El in the plural form of Elohim was the name of the Babylonian Supreme God and Yah was his son...?

Nope Im sure I am offended by your comment. It is like anywhere I go on this forum; people assume that because you hold a different view than them then you must believe the same way as all the others they debate with. Your comment placed me in a group that believes the bible being inspired of God must also be inerrant and your view that these people must therefore worship the bible. I find this view very offensive. I have told you nothing about what I believe about the bible or anything else; I am simply pointing out the fallacy in your views. You have nothing substantial to offer to this thread.

I know you are not stupid so please read this carefully. Inertia is a law of nature. One of God's laws. If the planet stopped rotating, everything on it would continue at the same rate of speed... unless you think God is some cosmic lawbreaker that would violate his own laws...

I can no more prove there is no demon than you can prove there are not little green men on Mars.. So why don't you prove there is just one demon anywhere, and I can bow at your wisdom and truth.

Of course this isn't "proof" but here is a discussion of the names:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~theseeker/Yahweh.htm

You can find many discussions and archeology of these names.

Offense is always taken, and very rarely given.

Tawhano · Oct 11, 2007

KCDAD said:
I know you are not stupid so please read this carefully. Inertia is a law of nature. One of God's laws. If the planet stopped rotating, everything on it would continue at the same rate of speed... unless you think God is some cosmic lawbreaker that would violate his own laws...

Gravity would hold everything to the earths surface and they wouldnt fly off, inertia isnt what holds everything to the earths surface. The rotation of the earth has nothing to do with the earths gravitational pull. Earths gradational pull would hold everything to the surface in the event the earths rotation stopped. Did you not read the link I gave you? Try this one http://www.sciencemonster.com/gravity_inertia.html

KCDAD said:
I can no more prove there is no demon than you can prove there are not little green men on Mars.

So why the arrogance you display in pretending your views have greater credibility than anyone elses?

KCDAD said:
So why don't you prove there is just one demon anywhere, and I can bow at your wisdom and truth.

Because it isnt about what I believe, its about your attitude and the way you post things as if they are facts and not just your opinions, which is all you have offered so far.

KCDAD said:
Of course this isn't "proof" but here is a discussion of the names:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~theseeker/Yahweh.htm

Then you base your beliefs on a web site that provides no source to validate any of its claims. This is starting to make sense now. Did you author that web site? The argument style of that web site matches yours; nothing but unsubstantiated claims.

KCDAD said:
You can find many discussions and archeology of these names.

But none that gives any credibility to your views.

KCDAD said:
Offense is always taken, and very rarely given.

A bird in the hand feels funny.

KCDAD · Oct 11, 2007

Ok... I'll keep it simple. When you are driving in a car, or riding a bike or riding a horse and it stops... you continue to move forward. That is inertia. An object in motion tends to remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force.

The Earth revolves at around 1000 miles per hour. If it were to stop EVERYTHING would continue to move at a thousand miles per hour until gravity, friction and that side of the mountain in their path stopped them.

YOU ( nor anyone else) CAN NOT PROVE SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

There are no demons or devils... of course I can't prove it because there is nothing to prove. You claim there are demons and devils and angels and miracles and answered prayers... PROVE IT. That should be easy to prove something that is. I can prove a dog exists, I can prove that inertia exists. I can prove that thoughts exist.
Can you prove ANYTHING that you claim to be true?

KCDAD · Oct 11, 2007

Tawhano said:
Then you base your beliefs on a web site that provides no source to validate any of its claims. This is starting to make sense now. Did you author that web site? The argument style of that web site matches yours; nothing but unsubstantiated claims.

You are so funny! I chose one of hundreds of websites... I could show the books I have on my shelf that say the same things. I could direct you to Rabbi's that say the same thing. Try and discover the truth for yourself. Get out of that Bible for a change and start seeking the TRUTH of God's creation. You have one point of view based on Hellenized Christian traditions.

Why... ?

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