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Why would you not get the Covid vaccine as a Catholic?

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    I’m just curious. I know there is the abortion factor. We just got the Moderna vaccine on Holy Saturday. In my state at this point it is 40 years old on up. I was very leery of getting it but since it was Moderna I went ahead and scheduled. I did feel exhausted and a bit off after getting it a few hours later but Tylenol and lots of water was recommended and I took it to alleviate the side effects which worked. My MIL’s doctor seemed to think Moderna was the best vaccine and that’s what she got with no side effects at all. My husband did not have any side effects as well. But I get a flu shot every year and feel a bit funky afterwards. I guess I just do not do well with vaccines in general. I’m just curious about why one would not get the vaccine if we can rid ourselves of it and it benefits our neighbor. I told my mother and sister I was getting it and they acted shocked. I was not going to ask as my side of the family can be drama city. But as a Catholic... what are the objections or trepidations besides the fetal cell issues??
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  2. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    I think the abortion issue is the biggest Catholic reason against those vaccines. A non-Catholic reason would be the fact that the production was rushed and mRNA vaccines are new. That is to say, the vaccines would still be in a testing and approval process if we weren't in a state of emergency.

    I will probably get a vaccine if the non-mRNA options are available, despite the fact that they have a lesser efficacy.
     
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  3. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    There is actually a really interesting position that Aquinas takes on usury that relates to the abortion question. It is quite complicated, so it's not clear whether the two issues run parallel, but they may.

    In ST II.II.78.4 Aquinas asks whether it is lawful to borrow money under a condition of usury. The Medieval Church followed the Old Testament in saying that usury--lending money at interest--is sinful. Aquinas is thinking of the situation in which you need a loan. Can you receive a loan from a usurer (someone who lends at interest). The issue is not so much that the borrower is made to pay interest. They are willing to pay interest. The issue is that usury is a sin, so if you ask for a loan from a usurer you are apparently causing them to sin or at least cooperating in their sin of usury.

    Interestingly, Aquinas says that it is lawful to take out a loan from a usurer, as long as the lender is in the profession of lending and commonly practices usury. That is, if you convince someone who doesn't usually give loans or practice usury to lend to you at interest, then you have caused them to sin. But if the person is already in the business of lending at interest, then your loan is not causing them to sin in any special way. In that case the sin is on their part, not yours.

    It might be the same for receiving a vaccination from someone who has produced vaccines by the remote means of an abortion. It also might not. For a fuller treatment of the usury issue, see chapter 5 of Kevin Flannery's Cooperation with Evil: Thomistic Tools of Analysis. Of all the many Catholic articles discussing the aborted fetal cells, I have not seen anyone reference Thomas' treatment of usury.
     
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  4. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Thank you Zippy. I will look into it tomorrow. Unfortunately, I’m the only Catholic in the family so I’m thinking some odd conspiracy theory or they think I just took the Mark of the Beast. I really do not know. But things have been awkward since.
     
  5. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    I dont trust the vaccines at this moment in time. I have twice turned down the vaccine.
     
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  6. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    I completely understand your trepidation. I struggled as well. But is there any particular reason why?
     
  7. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    Trust. Lack of it.
     
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  8. JustSomeBloke

    JustSomeBloke Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Please excuse my interruption. You might like to read my posts in another thread.
    Post #14
    Post #15
     
  9. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    I think some of the distrust regarding the vaccines is due to the fact that the government shot themselves in the foot. For example, last year Fauci claimed that masks are ineffective and unnecessary. He later admitted that he only said that because he wanted masks to be reserved for front-line workers and did not think we had a sufficient supply of masks for everyone to use them. So he admitted to lying to the American public on a very serious issue.

    That's just one example. There have been plenty. So one big reason there is distrust towards the medical and governmental institutions is because we know, as a matter of fact, that we have been lied to by these institutions during the pandemic. I think it's hard for people to weigh that.

    Fauci's lie is typical: instead of telling the truth and allowing citizens to make an informed decision, he lied in order to ensure that we behaved in a particular way. That is, he lied in order to ensure that we did not obtain masks needed by front-line workers. So now people resent being treated like behavioral lab rats and they are just knee-jerk opposing the behavioral recommendations of the overlords out of distrust and spite. It's an ugly situation, but it is even worse in some other countries.
     
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  10. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    I agree with those who state their mistrust of Fauci and government in general. I think Fauci is just a mouthpiece and have very little trust in the government .

    I based my decision on what I saw happening around me, not only locally but internationally . People were getting sick and dying and every time we let up the numbers went up.

    I felt comfortable taking the Pfizer vaccine and large studies in Israel seem to back its safety and efficacy .
     
  11. Fenwick

    Fenwick ☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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    The language of human rights is all over Catholic theology (CCC 1928-1948), and the freedom of mankind is described as such:

    1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.​

    Beyond that, important Catholic thinkers and Saints like Francisco Suarez and Saint Robert Bellarmine had profound influences on the founding philosophies of our nation such as life, liberty, and property.

    My refusal to accept the vaccine comes from my Catholic faith and my natural instincts that at the very least, something is amiss with both the circumstances that created the context by which the vaccine was necessitated, as well as the creation and implementation of the vaccine itself.

    The mere fact that governments around the world are siphoning off individual freedoms by proxy should be cause for alarm for anyone with a shred of unadulterated intellect. Yes, they're not directly telling you that you no longer have the freedom to do thus-and-so, but they are squeezing us all by saying if you have the vaccine then you can do thus-and-so.

    We left tinfoil hat territory a long time ago, this is real world stuff now. This is happening. Our very own government is making regular statements about citizens carrying documentation verifying ones vaccination, the lack of which will restrict your movement and access to businesses.

    They're using citizen soldiers to apply psychological pressure by leveling accusations of indifference and callousness for vulnerable parties because we refuse to comply with mask guidelines (not laws) and sweeping vaccination propaganda.

    Like if someone wants to get a vaccine or wear a mask, that's their right to do so, but nobody has the right to impose the same on someone else.
     
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  12. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    Yes I'm really interested in the discussion in the thread. I am in a similar place as @Michie as far as looking at getting the vaccine in the near future. I guess I'm not too bothered by the fetal issue because at least this is about trying to save lives and prevent people from having lasting issues like lung damage etc. that will lower their life expectancy.

    Two of my friends and many of their Facebook followers are really against the vaccinations as far as being a kind of gamble that is not worth doing unless you are really elderly or in multiple high risk groups. And I got to say, their fears seem to be somewhat valid when you read the instructions of the one dose one. They want to monitor you 16-32 minutes after taking it incase of complications. I haven't had a vaccine in decades but I know that is not normal. (You get stuck, you pay the bill and go).

    My best friend especially raises the various issues with vaccines. He is really against brand new vaccines until they have been thoroughly tested, but he has reason to be because he nearly was killed when he was 3 from a German measles vaccine that gave him measles!


    Anyway I'm looking at taking the one dose maybe later this month or next month. But they don't make it easy for you, their is an online form, and you have to have your special appointment etc. And what bums me out is their is no immediate benefit to things. I have not done well with the masks, so I would at least want some kind of pass on night wearing them for the next year, or two or three.

    So I'm going to pray a bit more on things. Most likely I will bit the paperwork bullet and sign up in a week or two. But I'm taking the time to listen to all the criticism. Usually I do just fine when it comes to flu season etc. and its been 31 years since my last vaccination that happened when entering grad school in California....
     
  13. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    I completely understand everyone’s concerns. They are my concerns as well. We still have to wear masks even if vaccinated. I’m concerned about long term effects as well. But I really did not have a choice as both of our parents are elderly with illnesses. I really felt like there was not much of a choice. My husband and I are pretty much the only ones they depend on. So what to do? I just pray this is not as nefarious as everyone seems to think.
     
  14. AvilaSurfer

    AvilaSurfer Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Got the 2nd shot 10 days ago. No side effects at all.
     
  15. Taodeching

    Taodeching Well-Known Member

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    Got the second shot 9 days ago and nothing, no side effects and I have 5 until the shots completely take effect
     
  16. Fenwick

    Fenwick ☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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    Not for nothing, but both of my parents have been vaccinated since my mom is almost 68 with bad rheumatoid arthritis and my dad is almost 74 with a history of respiratory problems. They were adamantly against it but then their doctors both ordered them to get it, so my mom did Pfizer and my dad did Moderna.

    I still don't trust it as far as I can throw it (much less the people behind it) but I'm not judging anyone who does get it.

    And now for a little levity, my dad—who never memes—sent this to me last night and said "This is you!"

    [​IMG]
     
  17. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    I don't have much of an answer for your question because I think the risks associated with the vaccine are far less than the ones associated with getting COVID and its after effects. I also fall into the group who thinks we have an obligation to heavily consider the overall community and others we may infect in our decision. The decision to be vaccinated or not is not one that's made in a vacuum; there are ripple effects far beyond ourselves.

    I think the abortion factor is a legitimate concern, but why it suddenly became a concern over this particular vaccine is a bit suspicious to me. The reality is almost all vaccines and many commonplace medicines use fetal stem cell lines for testing, but it was never a big deal until people wanted to try to convince people this particular vaccine should be rejected.
     
  18. narnia59

    narnia59 Regular Member

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    It will be interesting to see what kind of restrictions there are for people who have not been vaccinated. I think the biggest one that may be 'government' required will be schools and college campuses. Although I don't think that will be a state mandate in most places but left up to individual universities and school districts.

    I do think private entities will vary, but would say they have the right to do so. I often frequent a monastery for private retreats. They have just opened up their guest house this month for people to come, provided you've been vaccinated. Their house, their rules. I just hope people don't try to destroy those businesses who may opt to go that route.
     
  19. Lady Bug

    Lady Bug Let's get real Supporter

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    OK I'm one of those "cringeworthy" people who think that although this vaccine is NOT the Mark of the Beast, it looks like a prototype to see how many people will obey a massive campaign to get them to do something in order that they "conduct normal business."
     
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