Why would Christians support abortion?

Should Christians support abortion?

  • No. Christians should fight against the murder of innocent babies.

  • Not unless there is a serious medical reason.

  • Only in the first trimester. It isn't really a baby yet.

  • Christians should not support it, but it should be the woman's choice.

  • Yes. The government should not take the right to safe abortion away.

  • No, with some exceptions, as for pregnancy as the result of rape or incest.

  • Yes, when the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest.

  • Yes. It is the woman's body, she should have the right to choose.


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Crowns&Laurels

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The more reasonable approach is to save as many human lives as possible.

Since abortion is not mentioned in the bible it is more of a secular debate.

And since it is immoral to kill a human being without justification, and the unborn are human beings, then abortion is immoral.

It is mentioned in the Bible, in Leviticus, where it just so happens to imply that the fetus is more like property than an actual vessel. If a man strikes a pregnant woman, he had to pay a fine. If the woman died, only then was there eye for eye.
 
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TomZzyzx

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Embryonic science has shown that fetuses have human DNA, and in the later stages of development, biology. What it doesn't tell us is what life is. For example, a corpse also has human DNA and in most cases is far more developed then a fetus. Yet obviously it is not alive. So the question left for us now is what characterizes life. The Bible seems pretty clear that breath is what defines life.



So if life begins with breath, then at what point is an fetus alive? It's a question I'm still trying to figure out, but for now I'm happy to go with the Roe viability framework as the best guess we have.

Embryonic science has shown the the unborn are 100% whole, distinct (from the mother) and alive entities. If they are not human beings then what kind of beings are they? Science has shown that humans only give birth to other humans.

As far as the bible... at best you can say that every time that God is involved in creating a full grown human then you have a point. But that is not how the rest of humanity has come to be. So you biblical evidence for life is not valid.
 
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TomZzyzx

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It is mentioned in the Bible, in Leviticus, where it just so happens to imply that the fetus is more like property than an actual vessel. If a man strikes a pregnant woman, he had to pay a fine. If the woman died, only then was there eye for eye.

You have got to be kidding me? We just had a discussion about this on another thread where I showed you that your understanding of Exodus(not Leviticus) 21:22-25 was in error.

This time you don't even quote the entire verse and the part you try to quote is wrong.

The fine the men pay is for the premature birth they cause. But if there is any injury to either the mother or the baby then eye for eye...
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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You have got to be kidding me? We just had a discussion about this on another thread where I showed you that your understanding of Exodus(not Leviticus) 21:22-25 was in error.

This time you don't even quote the entire verse and the part you try to quote is wrong.

The fine the men pay is for the premature birth they cause. But if there is any injury to either the mother or the baby then eye for eye...

Except my understanding is not in error, it is very correct. The fact that the Bible doesn't speak on the death of a fetus any further concretes it. By what idea do you suppose men in those times would ever try to suppose their wife should die in regard to a fetus anyway? They wanted many sons, not one and a dead wife.

The Old Law was an agreement between God and men. Man could do what they wanted so long as they held to God's demands within them. There's no way they accepted an idea that a fetus is life so precious that a person should die as a result of aborting or otherwise killing it.
 
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TomZzyzx

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I'll play Devil's advocate for a bit.

Define "alive"

Scientist generally agree that anything that exhibits irritability (reaction to stimuli), metabolism (converting food to energy), and cellular reproduction (groth) is alive.
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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Scientist generally agree that anything that exhibits irritability (reaction to stimuli), metabolism (converting food to energy), and cellular reproduction (groth) is alive.

A plant exhibits the same, and yet, there is no shame in eating carrots.
 
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Arcangl86

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Scientist generally agree that anything that exhibits irritability (reaction to stimuli), metabolism (converting food to energy), and cellular reproduction (groth) is alive.
Ok, I'll give you that. But is there a difference between being alive and being human? And I'm not talking just "something with human DNA is human," but on the more spiritual level. What gives us the image and likeness of God?
 
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TomZzyzx

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A plant exhibits the same, and yet, there is no shame in eating carrots.

Are you saying the there should be no shame in eating the unborn because there is no shame in eating carrots?

Besides, what does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about?
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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Are you saying the there should be no shame in eating the unborn because there is no shame in eating carrots?

Besides, what does that have anything to do with what we have been talking about?

Fetuses do not experience real life. They are unborn.
God gave us preeminence over life, it is stated in the Bible.

It's not my intention to be pro-abortion, I'm very against it actually. But to suppose that it's murder to get an abortion is to suppose killing a cow is murder. All life have souls, and a person with permanent memories and experience suffers a much harsher death than one who has experienced nothing.
 
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TomZzyzx

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Ok, I'll give you that. But is there a difference between being alive and being human? And I'm not talking just "something with human DNA is human," but on the more spiritual level. What gives us the image and likeness of God?

And when do we get that image and likeness of God? I believe it is at conception.
 
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TomZzyzx

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Fetuses do not experience real life. They are unborn.
God gave us preeminence over life, it is stated in the Bible.

It's not my intention to be pro-abortion, I'm very against it actually. But to suppose that it's murder to get an abortion is to suppose killing a cow is murder. All life have souls, and a person with permanent memories and experience suffers a much harsher death than one who has experienced nothing.

Wouldn't anything that is alive be expierencing "real life"?

Can you tell me where exactly in the bible does it say that "God gave us preminence over life"? And why couldn't anyone believe it to mean it would be okay to kill any human born or unborn?

I never said killing the unborn is muder. I said killing the unborn is immoral.

And lastly, Pro-Lifers have never advocated killing anyone with "permanent memories and experience", so I don't know what that has to do with abortion.
 
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TomZzyzx

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Except my understanding is not in error, it is very correct. The fact that the Bible doesn't speak on the death of a fetus any further concretes it. By what idea do you suppose men in those times would ever try to suppose their wife should die in regard to a fetus anyway? They wanted many sons, not one and a dead wife.

The Old Law was an agreement between God and men. Man could do what they wanted so long as they held to God's demands within them. There's no way they accepted an idea that a fetus is life so precious that a person should die as a result of aborting or otherwise killing it.

Exodus 21:22-25 does not say anyone dies. It's a premature birth. The mother is alive and the baby is born alive. So I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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SarahsKnight

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While I am against abortion for any cause except in severe medical cases, where the life of the mother is at risk, or where the baby would have a short, painful life, I can understand why someone who had gotten pregnant by rape might not want to carry the baby. Still, no one should have to die for the sin of his father. And I have known mothers who have decided to keep the child...and it helped her to deal with the horror of what had happened to her. The baby can be a blessing.
After all, look what a blessing God brought forth from the horror of the cross...

I agree with Barrd wholly in all this.

For any other reason, though, I don't see how abortion can possibly be justified.
 
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CurtisNeeley

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I don't think all abortion is on the same degree of sin.

Getting an abortion, for example, due to a medical condition which serious, mortal potential isn't really wicked. There's no shame in the woman wanting to live.
Getting an abortion to be having been raped is sinful, but not necessarily so bad as one having to feel marked for perdition.
But getting an abortion because one simply just doesn't want a child? That's where the true mortal sin lies.

I think this is the more reasonable approach to this issue, rather then laboring under whether the fetus is alive, has a soul, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Killing an "unborn child" when no human is aware this infant is alive does not affect ANYONE but the female, the "unborn child", and doctor directly as well as the maker of all "artificial abortion" related products. Indirectly this affects one male, the doctor and the maker of "artificial abortion" related products.

Human laws are used to create secular rule-sets regulating various human actions that will affect another human(s).

Roe v Wade considered only Norma McCovey and her desire to abort gestation of her third child. There was no abortion of the "clump of cells" creating the "standing" for Norma McCovey. She gave these up for adoption after born.

Norma McCovey had three children but was NEVER a mother.

The Roe v Wade litigation was about law(s) already passed making abortion(s) illegal. These law(s) would have been challenged without Norma McCovey because two young women lawyers challenging these law(s) were looking for anyone with obvious legal "standing".

The issue of gestation regulation gives all fertile women "standing". The two young women lawyers did not want to risk losing their case due to not having a legitimate issue to be brought before the court. The fact that Norma McCovey was no longer pregnant when Roe v Wade resolved made "standing" no longer an issue given much weight in most abortion cases.

Roe v Wade did not mention viability except in attempting to weigh the earliest the clump of cells could possibly have their own right(s). The interests of the State(s) were pinned to the desire to enforce the rights a "speculative person".

Human laws are used to create secular rule-sets regulating various human actions that will affect another human(s).

Why has no litigation ever considered the other rational for regulating gestation? The male source of sperm; The innocence of children; Doctors or the public opposed to ANY abortion.

Not being aware of pregnancy does not absolve females of the responsibility to determine if voluntary sexual activity has resulted in pregnancy. Rapes do not either but make the State(s) responsible for this as well.

When the "group of cells" has developed a heartbeat after 12-weeks, innocent children, doctors, or the public might hear. The potentially listening public has a real claim of interest in gestation of the "group of cells" creating this heartbeat to proceed naturally. This public interest is as strong as the public desire to prosecute murders.

As the death penalty becomes disfavored by judges and the public, the right to artificially abort gestation does the same.

Humans, "cell groups", fetuses, or the unborn are not usually able to live outside of a womb till 24-weeks. Still; Only 7 nations on earth allow abortions after 20-weeks.

Most people do not agree with aborting gestation after 20-weeks. Source(s). A bill passed in the House of Representatives in 2013 prohibiting aborting gestation after 20-weeks but was never addressed by the less representative Senate oligarchy.

The 20-week bill will be irrelevant after Arkansas' 12-week ban is found to comply with Roe v Wade EXACTLY because Roe did not consider anyone before the court but only "speculatively" pregnant females and the duty of the State to protect the "cell groups", fetuses, or the unborn humans within "speculatively" pregnant females.

The Supreme Court has already punctured the "viability" argument by allowing the partial-birth method from being banned regardless of fetal age.

The Eighth Circuit just attempted to create a human right to abort before "viability" by intentionally misreading the Casey reaffirmation of Roe like ALL law schools and judges continue to do while misreading Roe the way Casey did twenty-plus years ago and ignoring the Gonzales v. Carhart contradiction.

The regulation of gestation at 12-weeks is the future that ends the legally and politically profitable intentional abortion issue but has extreme culture impacting consequences. Oh sure; the surgical abortion money has funded pre-viability misinterpretation of Roe by Casey.

The corporate interests of drug manufacturers will soon start funding the 12-week ban in order to begin the fight that results in an almost OTC abortion pill.

The fundamental human right to control the self without affecting ANYONE else directly or for 12-weeks of gestation is the argument and cornerstone for allowing abortion pills to extinguish abortion's legal furnace and ignite the legal furnace regarding control of abortion pills.
 

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Haasrecht

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@OP

I know many Christians that are pro-choice. Some hold to that belief for political reasons such as a particular notion of individual rights, privacy, small government, etc.. Others believe that the term 'unborn child' is ontologically incorrect for the first X number of weeks or something similar. In that case, the theoretical morality of having an abortion is a non-issue for them.
 
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