Why would Christians support abortion?

[RedPonyDriver]

I can only wish I could have carried a child to term, but it was not to be for me.

HOWEVER...I do not see where trying to push my beliefs (aided by spurious "medical" advice) does anyone any good. I do not have the right to force someone to do something to appease MY beliefs. I would prefer, that if someone would choose to have an abortion, they are able to have it done in a safe manner, in a clean facility, by qualified medical personnel. I am old enough to have heard the horror stories of pre-Roe v. Wade back alley abortions and that's not something I would want to have return.

 

[TomZzyzx]

I can only wish I could have carried a child to term, but it was not to be for me.

HOWEVER...I do not see where trying to push my beliefs (aided by spurious "medical" advice) does anyone any good. I do not have the right to force someone to do something to appease MY beliefs. I would prefer, that if someone would choose to have an abortion, they are able to have it done in a safe manner, in a clean facility, by qualified medical personnel. I am old enough to have heard the horror stories of pre-Roe v. Wade back alley abortions and that's not something I would want to have return.

So in your view it's alright to murder an innocent human being? Even if it's morally wrong?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

So in your view it's alright to murder an innocent human being? Even if it's morally wrong?

That is for me to decide for myself...however, it is not for me to decide for someone else...I also dispute the idea of "human being" when discussing a fetus before the age of viability...the hot button language of "innocent human being" also has turned me off to the "pro-life" movement (among many other issues).

Therefore...you have my stance. I will not continue to deal with the rabid pro-lifers, as they are pro-fetus, not pro-life...IF you want to be pro-life then work to correct the injustices and and problems of those already born, INCLUDING comprehensive sex education and availability of contraception. If you can't back those things, you're pro-fetus and as far as I am concerned, a total hypocrite...

 

[TomZzyzx]

That is for me to decide for myself...however, it is not for me to decide for someone else...I also dispute the idea of "human being" when discussing a fetus before the age of viability...the hot button language of "innocent human being" also has turned me off to the "pro-life" movement (among many other issues).

Therefore...you have my stance. I will not continue to deal with the rabid pro-lifers, as they are pro-fetus, not pro-life...IF you want to be pro-life then work to correct the injustices and and problems of those already born, INCLUDING comprehensive sex education and availability of contraception. If you can't back those things, you're pro-fetus and as far as I am concerned, a total hypocrite...

Science has already determined that the unborn are 100% whole human beings. So you loose that argument.

In Proverbs 6 God says "These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: ...Hands that she'd innocent blood," Prov 6:16-17

"Pro-life" is a term used exclusively for people against abortion and not for the already born.

Why do you think you know me and what I do or don't do for the "already born? Do you have any evidence to prove you're not lying?

 

[TheBarrd]

That is for me to decide for myself...however, it is not for me to decide for someone else...I also dispute the idea of "human being" when discussing a fetus before the age of viability...the hot button language of "innocent human being" also has turned me off to the "pro-life" movement (among many other issues).

Therefore...you have my stance. I will not continue to deal with the rabid pro-lifers, as they are pro-fetus, not pro-life...IF you want to be pro-life then work to correct the injustices and and problems of those already born, INCLUDING comprehensive sex education and availability of contraception. If you can't back those things, you're pro-fetus and as far as I am concerned, a total hypocrite...

Excuse me, but most pro-life people are very much involved in working to correct injustices and problems of those already born.
Comprehensive sex education ought to be done by someone who cares what happens to his or her students...someone who is involved enough to worry about their students becoming pregnant before they are ready for a child, or whether they wind up with an std. It should not be done by someone to whom it is "just a paycheck."
And it should include teaching women to value themselves as something more then a "quick lay". The truth is, that when a young man is ready to take a wife and start a family, he prefers the girl with the purity ring on her finger to the fast and easy girls he knew in his youth.
Yes, I know..."abstinence doesn't work". Actually, it is the ONLY "contraceptive" we know of that is guaranteed 100% effective, as well as the best defense against sexually transmitted diseases.
It is also good for self esteem, as well as bringing the girl the respect of others.
How do I know this? I have two brothers, and three sons....I hear them and their friends talking, and I know just how much respect they really do have for their "easy" girlfriends. I know that, when it came to choosing a mother for their children, they didn't want "used goods"...each one of them hoped to find a virgin. Of course, those are a bit harder to find these days...but, believe it or not, one of my sons actually did find such a girl. So, it is possible.

And did you really say "availability of contraception", as if our young people might have a problem obtaining these "necessities"? Puh-leeeze....even here in Alabama, one only needs ask the school nurse or walk into the health department to get a free little brown paper bag with maybe a dozen condoms...

As far as "back alley abortions"...well, if you're going to murder an innocent human being...and yes, what a pregnant woman is carrying in her womb is a human being, just as surely as a pregnant dog is carrying puppies, or a pregnant horse is carrying a foal...I have very little pity for you.
Oh, and speaking of consequences...WE may have made it legal to kill these little ones in the womb...but that doesn't mean that God has changed His mind about it.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

"To ABORT" is to stop something that has already started. Babies and newborns do not have souls because souls are born later. Living cells are alive but do not have "lives".
(Unprovable speculation, just as any other idea about creation of souls.)

"For a time" females have the fundamental natural right to control the self even after waiving the absolute right to uterine privacy via voluntary intercourse.

After the selected and deposited sperm has fertilized an egg and developed a heartbeat the natural right to exclusively control the uterus no longer exists because a second heartbeat can be heard by the listening public.

AR Act 301 prohibits artificially aborting gestation after 12-weeks AND development of a heartbeat. Awaiting en banc appeal at Eighth Circuit after invalidation by Honorable Susan Webber Wright was affirmed by a panel of three at the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals.

I filed the first amicus brief in this appeal and an amicus REPLY that was considered by the confused panel for almost one year. This honorable amicus REPLY addressed all briefs filed to aide ONLY the Eighth Circuit. My motion to intervene as a party was just denied.

Edwards v Beck, (14-1891) < <<
/\/\/\/\/\ Free links herein to docket and ALL filings in this case, including all amicus for 12-week gestation regulation and all amicus against prohibiting aborting gestation after 12-weeks and a heartbeat.
One motion for costs was entered.
Two responses opposing these costs were entered.
One motion to intervene and seek en banc consideration was denied. (mine)
The State of Arkansas request for en banc consideration remains pending.
This is how the legal "abortion" debate ends and becomes PRIVATE as it always should have been.

Jesus Christ supported abortion in the end times when He tells us homosexual weddings will become common again like in the days of Noah.

Read of Jesus considering His Father killing almost every human alive. Mathew 24:38

Those who reject Christ will probably raise children who also reject Christ and Jesus Christ clearly said many mothers will be called blessed after aborting. This scriptural FACT is in my amicus REPLY, which was before the Eighth Circuit panel for eleven months and three days and then was denied as moot.

The simple answer to this thread's question is:
Those trying to be Christ-like will ALL support most "abortions" in these end times.

 

[Holoman]

I have to say in the case of rape I have less issue seeing right from wrong, if it is wrong to abort a fetus then it is wrong even if the woman was raped and I dont think it should be legal. I know someone that was raped and had a child which she gave up for adoption. The experience was incredibly scarring and she told me of her hatred of the child but the mental torment of what had happened and how she felt towards her own daughter. I wouldn't wish it on anyone but she has the most kind heart and its taken such incredible strength for her to carry on. Her whole life has been a struggle as well, this rape was one of many things she's had to cope with, I have such respect for her and any woman that goes through it as I can't even imagine how difficult it is.

Rape aside, I have much more problems seeing right from wrong in the case of severe medical issues which threaten the life of both mother and child. If both mother and child have only a slight chance of survival then I'm not sure it is up to me to force her to go through with it. I still probably just fall on the side that it is morally wrong to abort, but honestly I couldn't make it illegal with a clear conscience.

 

[TheBarrd]

"To ABORT" is to stop something that has already started. Babies and newborns do not have souls because souls are born later. Living cells are alive but do not have "lives".
(Unprovable speculation, just as any other idea about creation of souls.)

"For a time" females have the fundamental natural right to control the self even after waiving the absolute right to uterine privacy via voluntary intercourse.

After the selected and deposited sperm has fertilized an egg and developed a heartbeat the natural right to exclusively control the uterus no longer exists because a second heartbeat can be heard by the listening public.

AR Act 301 prohibits artificially aborting gestation after 12-weeks AND development of a heartbeat. Awaiting en banc appeal at Eighth Circuit after invalidation by Honorable Susan Webber Wright was affirmed by a panel of three at the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals.

I filed the first amicus brief in this appeal and an amicus REPLY that was considered by the confused panel for almost one year. This honorable amicus REPLY addressed all briefs filed to aide ONLY the Eighth Circuit. My motion to intervene as a party was just denied.

Edwards v Beck, (14-1891) < <<
/\/\/\/\/\ Free links herein to docket and ALL filings in this case, including all amicus for 12-week gestation regulation and all amicus against prohibiting aborting gestation after 12-weeks and a heartbeat.
One motion for costs was entered.
Two responses opposing these costs were entered.
One motion to intervene and seek en banc consideration was denied. (mine)
The State of Arkansas request for en banc consideration remains pending.
This is how the legal "abortion" debate ends and becomes PRIVATE as it always should have been.

Jesus Christ supported abortion in the end times when He tells us homosexual weddings will become common again like in the days of Noah.

Read of Jesus considering His Father killing almost every human alive. Mathew 24:38

Those who reject Christ will probably raise children who also reject Christ and Jesus Christ clearly said many mothers will be called blessed after aborting. This scriptural FACT is in my amicus REPLY, which was before the Eighth Circuit panel for eleven months and three days and then was denied as moot.

The simple answer to this thread's question is:
Those trying to be Christ-like will ALL support most "abortions" in these end times.

I think you're reading some things into scripture that are not there.
For one thing, even Jesus did not know when "these end times" would be. Every generation since His time has thought it was "these end times". If you had lived during WWII, for instance, you'd have much better ground for the belief that we are in the end times than for now. Many, many, many people have embarrassed themselves, insisting that the end was such and such a time. Remember 2012? Thousands of people were sure that the Mayans knew something they didn't...but the time came and went, like many a dire day predicted before it...
For another, why do you assume that gay marriage was prevalent during the days of Noah? Perhaps it was..or perhaps it wasn't. There is nothing in the text that tells us one way or the other.
And finally, where do you get Jesus supporting abortion in any of this? I don't see anything that even vaguely supports this off-the-wall notion.
Anyone can submit an Amicus Curae (sp) brief...that doesn't mean the court has to consider it.
Lots of them are tossed out...and especially if they contain a lot of pseudo religious nonsense...

 

[CurtisNeeley]

I think you're reading some things into scripture that are not there.
[snip]Jesus did not know when "these end times" would be. Every generation since His time has thought it was "these end times". If you had lived during WWII, for instance, you'd have much better ground for the belief that we are in the end times than for now. Many, many, many people have embarrassed themselves, insisting that the end was such and such a time.

Jesus and ALL those in heaven or hell know the year but ONLY this. None, including Jesus, know the season, hour, or day. I think I know the year but this might be just a delusion. I will never tell either way.

For another, why do you assume that gay marriage was prevalent during the days of Noah? Perhaps it was..or perhaps it wasn't. There is nothing in the text that tells us one way or the other.

The text gives us an example of a similar time where the Heavenly Father killed "innocent" children growing up. These were the days of Lot in two cities.

And finally, where do you get Jesus supporting abortion in any of this? I don't see anything that even vaguely supports this off-the-wall notion.

This notion is not off the wall but is from Luke 23:29. This was Jesus preparing to take on the sins of ALL TIME and remembering the days of Noah and of Lot and killing the innocent to prevent the creation of more "lost" souls.
Most religious "scholars" say this was prediction of Jerusalem being destroyed in AD 70 and the children being killed. Perhaps. This was also referring to the days of the Nazis and now finally these "end times" many say we are in now when those who kill their unwanted children would, otherwise, raise children who would die "lost".
Jesus prefers mothers who will raise children to reject Him have abortions.

Anyone can submit an Amicus Curiae brief...that doesn't mean the court has to consider it. Lots of them are tossed out...and especially if they contain a lot of pseudo religious nonsense...

Submitting an amicus curiae requires a great deal of care ro comply with Fed. Rules of A. P. Rule #29. Most lawyers never prepare these except in law school. The court must read these carefully whether ignoring these or following these. Each party involved in the litigation must also read each.

I appreciate your thoughts and link to sources and references for further consideration.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

I want to know....how many Christians here support abortion...and why?

I am a sinner saved by Jesus and support the "lost" aborting gestation.
I also support anyone aborting gestation in the first 12-weeks before a heartbeat develops if doing this is their own decision.
The Heavenly Father killed almost everyone in the days of Noah and all people in two towns in the days of Lot. There are times when killing the innocent is the proper thing to do.

 

[TheBarrd]

I am a sinner saved by Jesus and support the "lost" aborting gestation.
I also support anyone aborting gestation in the first 12-weeks before a heartbeat develops if doing this is their own decision.
The Heavenly Father killed almost everyone in the days of Noah and all people in two towns in the days of Lot. There are times when killing the innocent is the proper thing to do.

Well, than you for giving me your opinion.
I don't agree with you, of course, but I'm not going to argue with you about it.

 

[CurtisNeeley]

Well, than[k] you for giving me your opinion. I don't agree with you, of course, but I'm not going to argue with you about it.

You are welcome.

I opposed the (52,497.44) Bill of Costs filed by Susan Talcott Camp of ACLU Foundation, Holly Dickson or Legal Director of ACLU, Stephanie Toti for Center for Reproductive Rights and, Bettina E. Brownstein for ACLU of Arkansas. I filed the only amicus supporting the en banc request petition thus far. The motion seeking to file this still pends after the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals awarded only 54% of the requested (52,497.44) or 28,435. I disagree with even this amount but the State of Arkansas suggested allowing almost this amount or 27,985

Abortion of gestation is a fundamental human right granted by the Heavenly Father that is comparable to the fundamental human right to reject Jesus. These fundamental human rights separate humans from other animals. The right of the State to protect the innocent public from becoming aware of human "abortion" ALONE is sufficient rational for banning artificial termination of gestation after 12-weeks and development of a heartbeat.

Whether the Eighth Circuit agrees with me and ends public litigation regarding aborting gestation or does not accept my counseling and end this controversy with Edwards v Beck, (14-1891) is my only concern.

I never argue.

 

[TheBarrd]

 

[CurtisNeeley]

1. A Christian gives up absolute uterine privacy by granting limited access to the uterus via sex. This Christian still has the fundamental human right to claim absolute uterine privacy whether a virgin or no longer a virgin.
2. Until the prior waiver of absolute uterine privacy is detectable by the public, the fundamental human right to claim absolute uterine privacy supports aborting pregnancy.
3. Normal gestation results in a second detectable heartbeat after 12-weeks.
4. A second detectable heartbeat supports "AR Act 301" banning abortion of gestation.
5. Jesus told of when the barren would be called blessed. (Luke 23:29)
6. Jesus told of a time when homosexuals and others would marry and give in marriage (Luke 17:27) by comparing the times of Noah to the times of Lot. (Luke 27:28)
8. Jesus was aware of the homosexuality from the time of Lot from (Genesis 19:1-11)
9. Jesus implies quite clearly that there was a coming time when marriage would again be common irrespective of gender (like in the days of Lot) and the women who were barren or who did not breastfeed would be called blessed. (Luke 23:29)

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I don't think all abortion is on the same degree of sin.

Getting an abortion, for example, due to a medical condition which serious, mortal potential isn't really wicked. There's no shame in the woman wanting to live.
Getting an abortion to be having been raped is sinful, but not necessarily so bad as one having to feel marked for perdition.
But getting an abortion because one simply just doesn't want a child? That's where the true mortal sin lies.

I think this is the more reasonable approach to this issue, rather then laboring under whether the fetus is alive, has a soul, etc.

 

[TomZzyzx]

I don't think all abortion is on the same degree of sin.

Getting an abortion, for example, due to a medical condition which serious, mortal potential isn't really wicked. There's no shame in the woman wanting to live.
Getting an abortion to be having been raped is sinful, but not necessarily so bad as one having to feel marked for perdition.
But getting an abortion because one simply just doesn't want a child? That's where the true mortal sin lies.

I think this is the more reasonable approach to this issue, rather then laboring under whether the fetus is alive, has a soul, etc.

The more reasonable approach is to save as many human lives as possible.

Since abortion is not mentioned in the bible it is more of a secular debate.

And since it is immoral to kill a human being without justification, and the unborn are human beings, then abortion is immoral.

 

[Arcangl86]

The more reasonable approach is to save as many human lives as possible.

Since abortion is not mentioned in the bible it is more of a secular debate.

And since it is immoral to kill a human being without justification, and the unborn are human beings, then abortion is immoral.

Except not all people believe that fetuses are human beings. And honestly, there is scriptural evidence to back that belief.

 

[TomZzyzx]

Except not all people believe that fetuses are human beings. And honestly, there is scriptural evidence to back that belief.

Embryonic science has already determined that the unborn are distinct and whole human beings.

What would be your scriptural evidance?

 

[PapaZoom]

Ah thank you. Whats your view on that particular point? I've vaguely skimmed through some of the posts in another thread.

Regarding rape. You can't kill the rapist so what justifies killing the unborn innocent human being?

 

[Arcangl86]

Embryonic science has already determined that the unborn are distinct and whole human beings.

What would be your scriptural evidance?

Embryonic science has shown that fetuses have human DNA, and in the later stages of development, biology. What it doesn't tell us is what life is. For example, a corpse also has human DNA and in most cases is far more developed then a fetus. Yet obviously it is not alive. So the question left for us now is what characterizes life. The Bible seems pretty clear that breath is what defines life.

then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being.

4Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them: O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5Thus says the Lord God to these bones: I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6I will lay sinews on you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

So if life begins with breath, then at what point is an fetus alive? It's a question I'm still trying to figure out, but for now I'm happy to go with the Roe viability framework as the best guess we have.