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Why would a benevolent god condone slavery?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Brother Billy, Sep 30, 2018.

  1. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    But WHICH Pharisees? Hillel's? Shammai's?

    One group griped about everything He did or said. The other warned Him of Herod coming to arrest Him.
     
  2. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    I would have objected to keeping them contrary to their wishes.
     
  3. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If God didn’t know slavery was repugnant then slavery wouldn’t have ended globally. The Biblical God couldn’t declare slavery as wrong under punishment of death regarding the context of the time of revelation as to many people just wouldn’t be able to cope that slavery would now be banned. Minor cultural things can be changed by God, however God can’t declare something like slavery which had a big effect on the lives of Israelites as repugnant as it would just be to big a change for that specific time. Are you seriously comparing the Israelite dietary laws and the Sabbath law to something as big as slavery?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  4. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe Jesus was what the Pharisees should have been and were meant to be while not literally being a Pharisee.
     
  5. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    If I were you (I'm speaking about myself here), I would be more worried about my slavery to haughtiness and gluttony, both of which alienate me from God.
     
  6. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    What does that even mean? "Not literally being a Pharisee?"
     
  7. Brother Billy

    Brother Billy Member

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    I don't think that many slaves would voluntarily agree to become the permanent property of another person. However even if they did, don't you think it is immoral for a slave-owner to accept such an offer? This would be taking an extreme advantage of someone in a desperate situation, don't you think? It would be much more moral to offer that person a job instead.
     
  8. Brother Billy

    Brother Billy Member

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    Do you really think that when the Hebrews attacked an enemy city as described in Deuteronomy 20:10-18, that when the city fell, the Hebrews said "okay folks, who wants to be a slave?"
     
  9. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    Which is exactly how I perceive 'christian slavery,' more of an employer-employee relationship.
     
  10. durangodawood

    durangodawood Dis Member

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    Yes. Fortunately I live in a time and place where I dont need to worry about chattel slavery personally. And my own habits are literally my worst enemy. But thats not really the point here.
     
  11. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus was not a member of the Pharisee party.
     
  12. durangodawood

    durangodawood Dis Member

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    Actually, I agree. This is why you see an evolving standard of morality on display in the Bible (and everywhere else) rather than a fixed standard.
     
  13. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    "party" means faction or sect. His teaching put Him firmly in that sect.

    But he was NOT a graduate of either of the main schools of Pharisees. (as far as we know) But is possible that He discussed with the 2 founders, Hillel and Shammai, when He was in the temple at age 12. They would have been in their 90s.
     
  14. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus did not agree with all the teachings of the Pharisees, furthermore he wasn’t an official member of the Pharisee party.
     
  15. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    He did not agree with the Shammai Pharisees, but most of what He taught was close to Hillel Pharisee teaching.

    There was no "official" membership.
     
  16. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    I was merely explaining historically how slavery arose and how it ended - it was economics, not moral philosophy. I'm not saying that God had the aim of abolishing slavery. His aim was much higher than that - the redemption of mankind from sin. Toward that end He condescended to work with people where they were.

    Slavery did not exist in antiquity because people were morally backward. It existed because they were economically backward. Athens may have abolished debt slavery, but what propped up ancient Athens economically were the mines Laurion, where slaves provided the muscle power. Abolishing the slave trade is not the same thing as abolishing slavery itself. China has abolished and reinstated slavery an number of times in history, most recently abolishing it 1910. This was possible because like Europe, China had developed an economic system that was more efficient than slavery, indeed similar to medieval European feudalism, not because slavery was regarded as immoral.
     
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  17. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    There are many good Pharisees in the Bible and Jesus didn't actually warn his disciples against the Pharisees but their teachings only.

    The flexibility of Hillel's theology seems more agreeable with Christ's teachings so the bad teaching must be the Torah which both Hillel and Shammai taught. Christ's warning of bad doctrines seem to point towards the Torah.

    Of very curious note is that Saul / Paul came from Hillel School, under the wing of Gamaliel. Yet, Paul bitterly and severely persecuted Christians.

    Don't get me wrong that I'm trying to connect Paul's bitter oppression of the Christians to the Hillel School.

    I don't think Hillel Pharisee would support such evil actions. I think Paul is operating with another authority or power that is not Pharisee during those times. Quite possibly from the Roman empire. Paul is a Roman citizen after all.

    The Roman Catholic Orthodox drew much from Paul's unique teachings not found in the Gospels. Higlights the strong Roman Empire involvement in the creation of the Orthodox religion and Canon Bible ever since Paul began oppressing Christians.

    It's also possible that the Christ is warning against both the Torah which both schools of Pharisee teaches and against Paul who claims to be a Pharisee but may be a Roman troublemaker with intentions to derail the Christian movement.
     
  18. Par5

    Par5 Well-Known Member

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    Don't be silly. I am not saying that laws about such mundane things as diet, what to wear, and when not to work are on a par with slavery. Slavery is an abomination, to use a word favoured in the bible, although the law regarding the Sabbath not so mundane because to break it would mean you could be stoned to death.
    Even if I was to accept, which I don't, that the biblical god did not put a stop to slavery because people could not cope with such a sudden change, why didn't he, when he laid down instructions on having slaves, tell the people not to beat their slaves and why did he give the slave owners a way to escape punishment if one of their slaves died as a result of a beating? Why did he not tell them not to take ownership of a slaves children and not to tag the ears of the slaves like a farmer tags his animals in order to show ownership?
    It strikes me that the biblical god is more concerned about his own ego by ensuring that he is worshipped in a way that he finds pleasing, hence the slaughter of people that worship other gods or who don't worship him to his liking.
    The bible reports the biblical god as saying that certain things were an abomination to him. It would appear that slavery wasn't one of those things.
     
  19. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Indeed. Gamaliel was Hillel's grandson. He apparently sent some of his students to warn Jesus of Herod's scheme, and in Acts he refused to kill the Apostles that had been arrested. I think Paul was incensed at his mentor's "weakness" on the Jesus cult, so he did a HUGE social no-no and went to the OTHER guys (Sadducean High priest) to get arrest warrants for Damascus. Gamaliel as president of the Sanhedrin could just as easily issued them.
     
  20. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Not really. It was against the extras and add-ons that both Shammai and Hillel added to the Torah. (Oral tradition)
     
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