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Featured Why worship Mary?

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Lybrah, Jun 28, 2018.

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  1. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

    Eastern Orthodox
    What makes a woman a mother?
    She carries a person in her womb for roughly nine months, gives birth to that person and nurtures that person as they grow to adulthood. The only difference between Mary and every other mother in the entirety of creation is that Mary's Son already existed before she conceived whereas everyone else is created by God at the moment of conception.
    Mothers don't create their children, God does.
    If you deny that Mary is the mother of God then you have a distorted understanding of motherhood.
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  2. wilts43

    wilts43 Newbie

    In Relationship
    (1)By what authority do you say Joel Osteen's interpretation-of-scripture is false; and your interpretation-of-scrpture is true?

    Are not all Protestants created equal?
    Are they not all equally entitled to claim Holy-Spirit-guidance in equal priesthood of all believers?

    (2)Who "represents the Protestant position"?
    Who can ever represent "Truth" in the "democratic-freedom-of-Babel"?
    In Rebellion you overthrew Popes, Bishops, & Councils, rejecting the organs-for-discerning-truth that Jesus gave His Apostolic Church.


    When the first major contention arose in the Church of Acts ("Must Gentile converts observe the Jewish Law?") what did they do?
    Peter, the Apostles & Elders had a Council at Jerusalem(chapter 15).
    They discussed; and made a decision of what was required....


    They than sent their decision out to all the Church in a letter. (This was the first Ecumenical Council of The Catholic Church). The same Catholic Church still does exactly this.

    HERE'S WHAT THEY DIDN'T DO ....... In every local Church they said let's have a "Tanakh (Old Testament) Study". Then they all said "what the spirit is telling ME". Of course the "Spirit" told them all different truthes". So they said "Let's all do our own thing!; It doesn't matter as long as we "love Jesus" or "Have a personal relationship with Jesus" or "are born again" or "speak in tongues". And when we still disagree we can do Church-Splits or Church-Shopping".

    [Staff edit].

    (3)So who does speak for "The Protestant Position"?

    Let us take the first Marian Dogma.
    "Theotokos" Mother of God

    "She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

    "Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord", because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

    "I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

    So I am clear what they thought.....
    But I have the clear impression that most Lutherans, Calvinists & Zwinglians today have trouble with this Title. When, why and by what authority, did this "truth" change?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2018
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  3. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

    Eastern Orthodox
    Mary is the mother of the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.
    Your mother is not merely the mother of your flesh, she is the mother of your person, flesh, soul and spirit.
    When you make statements like the one above, you unwittingly separate Christ into two parts regardless of how vehemently you claim otherwise. If Jesus, as God has no mother, and Jesus, as man has a mother, then you are talking about two different Jesus's, because one person cannot both have and not have a mother. It is a logical impossibility.
    Catholics, Orthodox and a large number of Protestants recognise Jesus as one person, the God-man and understand that because Mary is the mother of that one, undivided person, that she is without question the mother of God. You may not like the direction that Catholic devotion towards Mary has sometimes taken them, but the fact remains that every ancient Church bar the Nestorians agree that Mary is the mother of God and they have always understood it as a reference to who Christ is. It does not elevate Mary to demigoddessness because that would then throw doubt on Christ's humanity. We know that Christ is human because His mother Mary is human. Humans give birth to humans. But because Christ is also God, then by definition Mary is the mother of God. That one title declares both Christ's humanity and His divinity and defeats a number of heresies in one fell swoop.
    I pray that you are able to understand.
  4. wilts43

    wilts43 Newbie

    In Relationship
    But every "interpretation-of-scripture" is a "human opinion".

    It can be very frustating discusing with Protestants who constantly move the goalposts on literal exegesis.....to fit their Tradition!
    The most insistently literal passage in the New Testament is "The Bread of Life Discourse" ( John 6;23-71)
    Jesus loses most of his disciples because of His literal insistance;
    And He changes the verb from "eat" to "gnaw like an animal" ;
    He lets them all go; & He invites the Apostles to leave too....
    but He will NOT retract.
    The Institution narratives & 1 Corinthians also all support the Catholic & Orthodox Literal exegesis.
    But, without a scintilla of biblical support, Protestants since Zwingli have ignored & defied the plain meaning of this passage.
    And, if this passage can be metaphorised there is not one single passage of The Bible that can be literal.
    This is violence to scripture in defence of a modern, man-made, "Protestant" Tradition.
    It is the Tradition of those who reject Him. Those "who turned away & followed Him no more" at this "Hard saying". (John 6:66....how appropriate numbering!)

    Proclaiming "the infallibility of scripture" (against The Church to which it testifies) is a figleaf to cover the ego of the reader.....who will have no authority over them.
  5. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

    United States
    When did Rome condemn Osteensism? We simply point out his errors which any believer referring to the plain meaning of the text can clearly do.

    Peter says as much: 1 Peter 2:9-10 (ESV)
    But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    No one argues that there was never a period of inscripturation. Though I thought you would have picked a different passage as James, who is presiding over the council immediately cites Amos in verse 16 and 17 and then pronounces his judgement.

    After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

    16 “ ‘After this I will return,
    and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
    I will rebuild its ruins,
    and I will restore it,
    17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
    and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
    says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’

    19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

    Weird, right?

    This a strawman argument. Your charge here is false as shown above. And the anti-catholic charge is usually brought up when the argument is lacking in substance as it is here.

    Actually, I do not nor does any of the magisterial reformers deny that Mary is the mother of God. The term Theotokos (God bearer) has to do with Christology, not with Mary. The council of Ephesus was taking up the error of Nestorius and his over distinctions between the two natures of Christ. The council in using the term Theotokos confirmed the doctrine of the two natures of Christ in the Hypostatic union. To say the term was a Marian dogma is a later development.

    That is not to say that we should not honor Mary. Where the problem lies is in the extra-biblical, or rather contra-biblical as well as ahistorical doctrines and dogmas that come about later on.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 1, 2018
  6. wilts43

    wilts43 Newbie

    In Relationship
    (1)I am still waiting for you to show me;...Where "in-the-Bible" is says that "everything-that-is-true-is-in-The-Bible".
    Or I have to "show you from The Bible".
    Sola Scriptura is "man-made-slogan"
    It is clearly denied in the scripture it pretends to honour.

    (2) That said,
    The creation & use of statues & images was permitted & commanded by God..

    (a)In Exodus 25:18-20, God COMMANDS Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant. " And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. "
    (b)God also gave directions for images and animals as decoration of the temple and placed cheribum on the ark of the covenant. 1Kings 7:27 "Then he made the ten stands of bronze; the length of each stand was four cubits and its width four cubits and its height three cubits. This was the design of the stands: they had borders, even borders between the frames, and on the borders which were between the frames were lions, oxen and cherubim; and on the frames there was a pedestal above, and beneath the lions and oxen were wreaths of hanging work."
    (c) God commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use.
    (d)God had Moses create a staff with a serpent at the top. People looking at it were cured. According to Protestant critics of Catholics this was idolatory.

    (3)Joshua 7:6
    "Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads."
    The Ark had statues of Cherubim on it.
    Now I am confident that Joshua wasn't "worshipping the Cherubim".....but if I was a time-travelling prejudiced Protestant I might think "Why is he worshipping statues?"
    And Mary is the True & Living Ark of The Covenant as scripture clearly shows.

    (4)At The Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) The Apostles & Elders over-rule those who "insist on sticking to scripture". They countermmand what scripture clearly requires.
    You are in the exact position of The Judaisers.
    The Apostolic & Conciliar Church has Jesus own, full authority to bind & loosen.
    Our danger of falling into idolatory today is not statuary but MONEY, POWER, ADDICTIONS etc.
    The Mosaic situation, of an "abstract"-God in a millieu of idols, is remedied by God's INCARNATION in Christ.
    God has given us images of Himself.....
    (a)In The God-Man Christ,
    (b)In "The Father-God"
    (c)The Holy Spirit as Dove/Tongues-of-fire.
    God himself gave us these images!
    So the early Catholic Christians made paintings of Christ, of the Saints, and of scenes from the Bible, including parts of Our Lord’s Passion in the catacombs. They also treasured & venerated relics from saints & martyrs.
    (see "Martyrdom of Polycarp"....who was discipled by St John).
    And when you create religious art you; you can "use" it.
    Catholics do not "worship" images.
    We "use" them as reminders; and to focus our attention.
    Do you use images of your family to remind you to think of them?
    Have you never kissed a photo or talked to it, or said "I love you"? I have: but I was not "worshipping" (or even "loving") the paper! It directed my thoughts to the person it represents.
    Have you never used any prayer aid or prayer-reminder for focus?
    Have you ever kissed a Bible?
    Are those that do this "worshipping paper"?....or thanking God for his Word?
    When I kiss a crucifix I am using my body to cause my mind to love & thank Jesus; I am not worshipping the material it's made of. It's even more useful to have images of what we have not seen (e.g. Mary) to give our mind's imagination a path to contemplation (e.g. of our Mother Mary in Heaven).
    If someone has a picture of their dead mother on a sideboard, can they place some flowers around it & talk to "her"? Is this idol-worship?
    Flesh-&-blood incarnate humans do this.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  7. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

    United States
    Me too. Enough with your false accusations. I said "I do not worship Mary" you added that.
  8. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

    United States
    I've come to the conclusion that reason is obstructed when faith is founded on a futile protest and consequently contingent on the perception of error that doesn't exist. That condition of faith operates in an environment that inherently presents threats to it's existence.
  9. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

    Unless you accept that God does speak through man infallibly, when authoring scripture, then you have no scripture! So even you believe in infallibility!

    So the question is not whether but when: And since Jesus clearly does give the power to " bind and loose" i.e. Rule on doctrine, both to Peter alone , ( with the office of keys - we see in OT is called " father" so pope) and separately to the apostles together in a different instance in scripture.
    Then they are clearly given the power to act infallibly, " bind in heaven" -" bind and loose" has accepted meaning to first century Jews.

    It is good that they have that power, because you will recollect it was councils that pronounced on both canon ( you now call the New Testament) and creed, so without the power of that authority neither are inspired!

    As for your reliance on scripture, note that Protestants disagree profoundly with multiple mutually exclusive views on every aspect of doctrine. Not surprising because sola scriptura was a falasy and man made tradition of the reformation. Demonstrable false provable by history, scripture indeed sola scriptura fails simple logic!

    The meaning of scripture and all doctrine is passed by tradition and authority as we see in early church, as confirmed in scripture which says the foundation of truth is the church.

    Protestants ( I was one) sit on the horns of apainful dilemma.

    If you do not accept the authority of the church ( successorscof apostles acting together) , you have no infallible scripture. So all Protestant arguments based on scripture fail.

    But if you do accept the authority, you must also accept what they said scripture means.

    Some of those fathers who chose your canon were vociferous on the intercession of Mary: not surprising since it was heralded in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the new.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  10. AvilaSurfer

    AvilaSurfer Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    (Sigh) Nobody “worships” Mary.
  11. DaveM

    DaveM New Member

    Joel teaches materialism the bible teaches being content, pretty simple to see the difference.
  12. Arthur B Via

    Arthur B Via Art Supporter

    United States
    The Catholic Church started this. The Catholic "church" also SOLD salvation to illiterate peasants for cash along with many other man made heresies. Sadly , many people love "the Catholic church" when they're supposed to love Jesus. Read 1st. Corinthians to see where, and when, this began... God bless you all...
  13. wilts43

    wilts43 Newbie

    In Relationship
    (1)I am still waiting for you to show me;...
    Where "in-the-Bible" is says that "everything-that-is-true-is-in-The-Bible"?
    Or I have to "show you from The Bible"?
    Sola Scriptura is "man-made-baseless-assertion"
    It is clearly denied many times wthin the scripture it pretends to honour.
    But its proponents trot it out insistently, as the limit of truth in discussion, without ever proving it.

    "Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;"
    Jesus, & His Body,....(His Church) are one.
    He identifies totally with His Church ("Saul; why do you persecute ME?")
    And He tells you it is His Church (NOT SCRIPTURE) "that is the pillar & foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15)

    The Jews were awaiting The Messiah that would "re-establish the Davidic Kingdom, that would last forever & encompass The Nations". They were not expecting "A New Book".
    So Jesus talks about "The Kingdom" incessantly.
    And in Matt 16:18-19 Jesus calls This Kingdom-of-Heaven "MY CHURCH" .
    He tells Peter IT WILL NEVER FAIL & He gives Peter "The Keys" of This Kingdom-of-Heaven.
    He selects 12 Apostles as the princes for the 12 tribes and sets Peter up as The Davidic Steward who rules in the King's stead.....a succesive office. (cf Matt 16:18-19 with Isaiah 22:19-23)

    So, instead of writing a book, Jesus founded a living Church...
    "that would never fail" (Matt 16:18);
    that he would be with until the end of time (Matt 28:20);
    & "lead into all Truth". (John 16:13).

    And if you want to hear this "Word-of-God" he said
    ""Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."
    His "Word" was entrusted to His Apostolic Church.....not to a book.

    THE CHURCH IN ACTS (Acts 2:42)
    "And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ TEACHING and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."
    ie "The Mass" & "The oral Apostolic tradition" (Notice "Apostle's Teachings"....NOT Scripture)
    HOW was this "Tradition" preserved?

    2 Tim 2:2 Paul says
    "You therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well."

    You take what I taught you (1 generation)
    Teach this to others.... (2 generations)
    Who will teach others.... (3 generations)
    THREE GENERATIONS! THIS IS CATHOLIC ORAL APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION (Nothing there about writing books, printing them up, scripture studies etc.)

    It was from this living, Apostolic-Teaching-Church, that preserved truth by appointing succesive Teachers, that writings emerged that were being read from at The Holy Mass.
    Some were considered spurious. So, around 400 AD, a list by Athanasius was approved by several popes & 4 Councils.
    This important part of the Apostolic Faith was later called The Bible.
    It is part of he Apostolic tradition...which is the Catholic Church.

    So Christ's "work" is His everlasting Church/Kingdom ....not a book.
    "The Book" (Bible) Is the family-library/album of The Catholic Church.
    It is very,very important; but it came FROM the Church; and testifies to this, His one Church....with a LIVING Magisterium (For He said to His Apostles "I am with you all days unto the end of time"....therefore including their successors)
    You can read this "family-library"; you can play "pretend-games" with it (Called "Protestantism"); but you are actually called TO BE A LIVING MEMBER of this actual family.

    (2)Do you accept that ALL salvation & grace comes through Christ.

    (3)Do you accept that God did not impregnate Mary without her free consent?

    (4)Do you accept that therefore ALL salvation & grace comes through Mary's assent (reversing Eve's disobedience)?
    Personally I find great wonder that almighty God let Salvation depend on the free "Yes" of a young, virgin daughter of Zion.
    But it had to be; because The Fall came through Eve's free choice to listen to a fallen Angel.

    (5)Do you accept that Jesus's "Glorifies His Mother" (in obedience to the 4th commandment) more wonderfully than any other human ever did or will?

    (6)Do you think any Catholic loves Mary (which you misjudge as worship) more than Jesus loves His mum?

    (7)Do you accept that the final covenant is familial....
    That God The Son became one-of-us to become our brother, that He has given us His Father as our father, making us "sons & daughters" of God?

    (8)And if you are Jesus's brother, is not Mary your Mother?

    (9) (John 19:26-27)When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”
    Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” So from that hour, this disciple took her into his home."

    Is this just a new domestic arrangement introduced incidentally into The Bible?
    Or is it (as well) a cosmic finale of the reversal of Adam & Eve?
    Jesus calls His Mum "Woman"!
    Is he breaking the 4th Commandment to die in sin?
    Or is He referring to "The Woman" of Genesis. The name Eve had before she sinned. The new "mother of all the living".
    Now she is Mother of "the disciple He loves" (YOU amariselle)
    confirmed in Rev 12:17
    "And the dragon was enraged at the woman (who gave birth to Jesus), and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
    She is our Mother too....completing the family nature of the covenant.
    That's why we, love, honour & venerate her
    That's why we bring flowers to her statues or images.
    She is only a creature; but as spouse of The Holy Spirit & Mother of The Son she personifies God's total adoption of mankind.
    That should be a great comfort, hope, inspiration & consolation to all Christians
  14. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

    United States
    I am only replying so that you can stop posting this. I already said I am finished posting here, and I meant it.

    Once accusations of “heretic” start being thrown at me along with accusations that I don’t believe Jesus is God, (i.e. I’m not a Christian) I refuse to continue as all hope of honest and insightful discussion is gone.

    Have a blessed Sunday.
  15. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    Not an issue in question here.


    Also not a thing in question here.

    Or have you distorted the understanding of God?

    I did my best to see how anything at all in your post backed that up, but there was nothing. On the other hand, if I didn't see it or understand, would you please point out where you made it clear Mary was the Mother of a God who always was, and existed long before she did? And just so you all understand what you clearly choose not too, a mother, as we know it, bears children whose existence starts right there....God has been around forever, and there is not so much as indication his existence began in a womb.

    Also, and I will direct this at no on in particular as it's only to make a point, and not to goad, but I see no one has explained how it is OK to bow to Mary when the Bible is very specific on the issue.

    And I understand these are hard questions to answer but since we are talking straight up biblical here, I think the question absolutely belongs and it should be pointed out, it is not being addressed, then simply let others take from that what they will. IOW, no answer required but the point needs to be made that the lack thereof, actually makes the point.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  16. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    And "Mary, Mother of God" is not?
  17. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

    United States
    This is an excellent question, and brings to mind the accusation leveled by Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons that "the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible". Inferring that because this word is not technically Biblical, God existing as Three co-equal Persons is not True.
  18. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    Can you please give some examples of truths that arent's in the bible so we can discuss them directly, and individually?
  19. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    And you make an excellent point, did you notice how you skewed that comment? Look closely, you, by design, only stated what some here would consider bad denominations (Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons) while leaving out the very real fact that many 'Christian" also believe God and God alone is God.

    My point? When even mild deceptions raise their head it tells a story, a story of being desperate for defense. So, nothing personal, GS, happens all the time in cases like this, but I feel it needs to be pointed out as another sign for people to be aware of when it comes to discerning the truth...

    The following has little or nothing to do with the poster to which I'm replying...

    Read between the lines, folks...see the unanswered posts, see the anger, and ask yourself why any one would need to be angry enough to level accusations, some just mean, towards others, and when asked to back them, they either go away or flat out refuse/find a way to dismiss themselves. Who would have a reason to act in such a way? And what would their reason be? Because they cannot answer simple questions? Because they are frustrated they have not real defense? You decide.
  20. Kenny'sID

    Kenny'sID Well-Known Member Supporter

    I can't sit here and read some of this stuff without comment.

    Who thinks that was idolatry.. a half dozen nut's, and you are purporting it as a norm/being very deceptive? and that's a question, not an accusation, not at this point anyway.

    Start by showing me who says that is idolatry, and we can go from there.
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