Why worship Mary?

[Hermit76]

Since we're in the history section, listen to this if you want to take the time to hear a clear history of why protestantism is far removed from the early church.

 

[amariselle]

Since we're in the history section, listen to this if you want to take the time to hear a clear history of why protestantism is far removed from the early church.

Thanks for sharing. I may listen to it later, right now I am going for a walk, then I have some paperwork to do.

Also, I’m sure you’re aware that many of us Protestants have been told many times that we are “heretics” and far removed from “the Early Church”. And all this despite relying so much on Scripture (for which we are also insulted) when it’s in Scripture that we most accurately see and understand what the Early Church actually was in their beliefs and practices.

I hope you have a good evening.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Mary wants to help us follow her Son. She's the first Christian, greatest Saint, Mother of God, and Mother of the Church. Even if you hear "Church" and think "every Christian on the planet", she's still our Mother. If she's Jesus' Mother and He is God, how is she not at least the spiritual mother of all of us, too?

Protestants, please think about this. The doctrine that God exists co-equally in Three eternal Persons comprising One Godhead distinct and yet wholly One is not transparently spelled out in Scripture. Hinted at, inferred, maybe, but not specifically defined verbatim, beyond any capacity to raise questions. The Real Presence of Christ / Trans-Substantiation is more clearly stated than the Trinity. So....

Just saying. Each of us reads the same Scriptures (plus or minus a few inspired books), yet the diversity in how we read, interpret, live by, and relate to what we read is incredible. We can not all be right. Clearly we need help.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Since we're in the history section, listen to this if you want to take the time to hear a clear history of why protestantism is far removed from the early church.

Haven't we already been informed of our problems right here? If the video is doing the same without backing it up, as has happened here, why bother?

 

[Hermit76]

Haven't we already been informed of our problems right here? If the video is doing the same without backing it up, as has happened here, why bother?

Since he has a Ph.D. in the history and theology of the Early Christian Church, you can rest assured that he indeed "backs it up."

This is not an all encompassing history, but touches on the issues that snowballed in the West as well as the Lutherans' attempt to join Orthodoxy without renouncing their heresy.
You'd probably say this has nothing to do with you, but there's the bigger picture which comments on all Protestants and in a very strong way Catholics.

Just so you know, this is a lecture given to a bunch of Protestants. So it's not inflammatory.

 

[amariselle]

Mary wants to help us follow her Son. She's the first Christian, greatest Saint, Mother of God, and Mother of the Church. Even if you hear "Church" and think "every Christian on the planet", she's still our Mother. If she's Jesus' Mother and He is God, how is she not at least the spiritual mother of all of us, too?

Unfortunately the Scriptures give us no reason to believe Mary is our “spiritual mother”, the “greatest saint”, or the “mother of the Church.” Jesus did say this though:

Matthew 12:
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

And indeed, all true, born again believers are “brethren.”

Protestants, please think about this.

I assure you I have, more than you may think or believe.

The doctrine that God exists co-equally in Three eternal Persons comprising One Godhead distinct and yet wholly One is not transparently spelled out in Scripture. Hinted at, inferred, maybe, but not specifically defined verbatim, beyond any capacity to raise questions.

I disagree. The word “Trinity” may not occur in Scripture, but the Father, Son and Holy Spirit most definitely do.

1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Real Presence of Christ / Trans-Substantiation is more clearly stated than the Trinity. So....

Again, I disagree, but as Transubstantiation/“The Real Presence” is not the topic of this thread, I’ll leave it at that.

Just saying. Each of us reads the same Scriptures (plus or minus a few inspired books), yet the diversity in how we read, interpret, live by, and relate to what we read is incredible. We can not all be right. Clearly we need help.

And we have it. God has promised the Holy Spirit will indwell all true believers. We are always able to pray to God and seek His help when we search the Scriptures.

 

[Mountainmike]

Who came up with the idea that Mary (Jesus' mother) is queen of heaven, and that people should worship her? Why did that happen?

Why not study ( the endless repetitions of ) such explanations before start another thread onthis?

Answers
1/ nobody worships Mary - that is a ( sometimes deliberate) misrepresentatiom and misunderstanding of Catholicism (and others holding similar views) who venerate not worship.

2/ the bible infers that title : - " queen" is the ( honorary) title demonstrably given to the mother not spouse of davidic kings , given a throne and with powers of intercession with the king. Christ was heralded a davidic king, whose kingdom is heaven. So the bible ( ie God) " started " it.

 

[Eloy Craft]

People are not infallible, including the Pope. This is why our authority in testing things must not be human opinion, but Scripture.

If its not yours it's opinion, if it is, it's the word of god.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Unfortunately the Scriptures give us no reason to believe Mary is our “spiritual mother”, the “greatest saint”, or the “mother of the Church.” Jesus did say this though:

We know this because there is nothing in Scriptures hidden from you and you know no error.

 

[Eloy Craft]

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Of course an accusing voice whispers in your ear... Pssst see, Mary doesn't do the will of God. Jesus said, be carefull how you hear. This passage says that Mary does the Will of God. You don't hear that voice.

 

[Athanasius377]

Since we're in the history section, listen to this if you want to take the time to hear a clear history of why protestantism is far removed from the early church.

Actually I watched this video and while he makes some good points about medieval history he also makes the same mistakes as Roman apologists do in his treatment of history of the canon of scripture. He stated that it was the eastern bishops that determined the canon (paraphrasing here) in the fourth century. I'm pretty sure RC's hearing that would disagree. The problem with that statement is we have canonical lists such as the Muratorian canon, a list from Melito of Sardis and quotes from Irenaeus all from the second century. Furthermore the very fact that there are surviving copies of scriptures by the fourth century means someone thought they were special enough to have copies made and cared for. In other words he must push the date of the canon as late as possible so as to show the church's authority over the scriptures.

The part of about the delivery of the Augsburg confession was interesting. I was aware there was communication but never much more. But alas, if you want to discuss history you can always start a new thread. This thread is devolving into a dumpster fire.

 

[amariselle]

If its not yours it's opinion, if it is, it's the word of god.

Right. Hilarious.

 

[amariselle]

We know this because there is nothing in Scriptures hidden from you and you know no error.

Yes, because obviously that’s what I said. Did you not read my posts? I’m beginning to think you don’t.

 

[amariselle]

Of course an accusing voice whispers in your ear... Pssst see, Mary doesn't do the will of God. Jesus said, be carefull how you hear. This passage says that Mary does the Will of God. You don't hear that voice.

Please stop with your false accusations. I’ve had enough of them. I did not say “Mary doesn’t do the will of God”, you added that.

I have asked you repeatedly to refrain from making such comments. As you will not, I am finished going over this with you.

 

[amariselle]

Alright. I’m moving on. I hope the OP takes the time to search the Scriptures and pray regarding the question they asked.

Unfortunately this thread has taken pretty much the same route all such threads on this topic take.

Protestants ask genuine questions (like the OP did) and share Scripture. They are then accused of not only hating and insulting Mary but of denying Jesus is God. They are therefore called heretics.

Blessings to all in any case.

 

[chevyontheriver]

This difference in authority is perhaps the crux of the matter.

Absolutely.

 

[Hermit76]

Actually I watched this video and while he makes some good points about medieval history he also makes the same mistakes as Roman apologists do in his treatment of history of the canon of scripture. He stated that it was the eastern bishops that determined the canon (paraphrasing here) in the fourth century. I'm pretty sure RC's hearing that would disagree. The problem with that statement is we have canonical lists such as the Muratorian canon, a list from Melito of Sardis and quotes from Irenaeus all from the second century. Furthermore the very fact that there are surviving copies of scriptures by the fourth century means someone thought they were special enough to have copies made and cared for. In other words he must push the date of the canon as late as possible so as to show the church's authority over the scriptures.

The part of about the delivery of the Augsburg confession was interesting. I was aware there was communication but never much more. But alas, if you want to discuss history you can always start a new thread. This thread is devolving into a dumpster fire.

They wouldn't disagree. They would just count them as their own. We share that history.

It was a dumpster fire to begin with.

 

[Hermit76]

Alright. I’m moving on. I hope the OP takes the time to search the Scriptures and pray regarding the question they asked.

Unfortunately this thread has taken pretty much the same route all such threads on this topic take.

Protestants ask genuine questions (like the OP did) and share Scripture. They are then accused of not only hating and insulting Mary but of denying Jesus is God. They are therefore called heretics.

Blessings to all in any case.

But you have something to discuss during Sunday School tomorrow.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Please explain how my refusal to go beyond the inspired word of God and to give to Mary any more honour, praise or distinction than Scripture gives her is to be "against Mary" and therefore "against Jesus." If you are going to make accusations like that, I will respectfully ask you to explain.

You know as well as I do that I never once said Jesus is not God. I honestly do not appreciate you inferring that I did or that I do not believe He is God.

Please read carefully: God pre-existed Mary, He is eternal, He has no beginning and no end. God is Mary's Creator. And yes, God has no mother. If God has a mother, than God has a beginning. To say that Mary is the mother of the divine (God) is to suggest that she pre-existed Him. A mother always pre-exists her offspring. (Obviously). God pre-existed Mary and is from everlasting to everlasting. The incarnation is in many ways a mystery and can be difficult to adequately understand or explain, but this we know: Jesus was fully God and fully man. His divinity and His humanity are not separate and yet, His divinity (as God) is eternal and did not originate with Mary. As a man Jesus had an earthly mother, as God, He does not. (And this is clearly true because we know from Scripture that God always existed and He created Mary. She, like all of us, has a beginning, God does not.)

No, that is what you have told me I have done. Please see above. Your accusation is false. Jesus was indeed God at His birth to Mary. (From conception, actually).

You have been telling Catholics how we worship Mary. Now when confronted with the simple and straightforward conclusion of your denial that Mary was the mother of God is that you hold that Jesus was not God, you get up in arms. I shouldn't be telling you what you believe? You shouldn't be telling Catholics what they believe.

It's simple. The eternal Son of the Father was always God. The eternal Son of the Father was born into humanity and his mother's name was Mary. Mary was the mother of God. When you deny that Mary was the mother of God what you are actually saying is that her baby boy was not God. Yet you claim up and down not to be denying that Jesus was God. Was Jesus God? Who was the mother of Jesus? Did the mother of Jesus give birth to a baby boy who was God? Or a baby boy who was not God? If the mother of Jesus gave birth to a baby boy who was God, was the mother of that baby boy the mother of God? If not, Jesus was not God. If so, and you claim it is so, then Mary is the mother of God. It's simple. Yet you reject it.

You go into a silly claim that for Mary to be the mother of a baby boy who was God that she had to somehow originate God before all eternity. No Catholic has ever ever claimed such silliness. Yet you have repeated it even in your last post. Again, it's simple. Jesus had a mother, Jesus was God, you know what I'm gonna say next. Refusing to 'honor' Mary puts you at the door of a christological heresy. And yet you persist, rejecting very plain syllogism. The 'honor' to Mary was the guarantee of the teaching that Jesus Christ, from the moment of his human existence, was a divine person who was the eternal Son of the Father. You attempt to say something like that, but your denial of Mary as the mother of God puts all of that in doubt. You seem to want 'yes' and 'no' at the same time. Pick one and be consistent and run with it. Either Mary is the mother of a baby boy who was God or her baby boy was not God. Pick one.

 

[prodromos]

Jesus would not call Mary Woman, unless she has married, meaning has been with a man. To call a female a woman, when she has no sexual marital affiliation with a husband is offensive.

What a load of hooey. Not surprising that you supply no citations whatsoever to back up your claims.