Why we are not supposed to keep the Sabbath

[Bob S]

Hebrews 4 is a straightforward message to Jews. Jews were well aware of the Sabbath, so that would be preaching to the choir. The Rest the Jews never found was Jesus Christ, but there still remains an open door to find Rest and salvation through Him. Jesus is our Sabbath rest, and we can find it any day of the week.

 

[Bob S]

The entirety of Jesus' teaching in the Gospels were mainly just spoken to Israel. So according to your theology none of it applies to you or anyone else that is not Israelian.

That is a baseless accusation. The new and better covenant did not start until Jesus ratified it with His own blood at Calvary.

What does "teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you" mean then according to what you are purporting?

Jesus didn't teach gentiles to observe the Sabbath. History proves that those teachers that went to all the World didn't teach the observance of the Sabbath. There is no evidence of any nation ever-keeping Sabbath.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I don't recall Jesus ever teaching the disciples Sabbath keeping.

In Matthew 24's address the culmination is Jesus coming in the clouds to gather the elect. In sharing this He also shares an exhortation to pray that our flight not be in the winter or the Sabbath prior to this.

I can understand why one wouldn't want to leave a warm home in the dead of winter, but why one could not flee oppression on the Sabbath doesn't make any sense. What does make sense is the fact that the gates of the city were closed on the Sabbath so that fleeing would have been impossible.

There is neither Jew or gentile?

Eph2:
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Jesus set aside the Law. It is finished. Jews are no longer under the old covenant Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law at Calvary just as He proclaimed in His speech in Matt 5. "I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Fulfill means to bring to an end

 

[HIM]

I can understand why one wouldn't want to leave a warm home in the dead of winter, but why one could not flee oppression on the Sabbath doesn't make any sense

It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you.

 

[Leaf473]

When you get right down to it, everything's clean. Unless you think it isn't. Romans 14:20

The food talked about there isn't just limited to what's in Leviticus 11. Because "everything's clean".

Thus, "all days" in verse 5 really is about all days.

One guy thinks one day is more important than another. Another guy thinks every day's the same. Everyone must be sure in their own mind

taken from the New Life Version below

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14:5 - New Life Version

One man thinks one day is more important than another. Another man thinks every day is the same. Every man must be sure in his own mind.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[HIM]

When you get right down to it, everything's clean. Unless you think it isn't. Romans 14:20

No when you get down to it context states that the food and days are not in respect to what is stated by God but that of tradition and our own reasonings, thoughts.

 

[Leaf473]

No when you get down to it context states that the food and days are not in respect to what is stated by God but that of tradition and our own reasonings, thoughts.

The text states
πάντα μὲν καθαρά

Which is what I rendered above as
When you get right down to it, everything's clean.

μὲν = When you get right down to it
πάντα = everything
καθαρά = clean

("is" is usually implied in Greek)

What does your translation say?

 

[Jerry N.]

When you get right down to it, everything's clean. Unless you think it isn't. Romans 14:20

The food talked about there isn't just limited to what's in Leviticus 11. Because "everything's clean".

Thus, "all days" in verse 5 really is about all days.

One guy thinks one day is more important than another. Another guy thinks every day's the same. Everyone must be sure in their own mind

taken from the New Life Version below

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14:5 - New Life Version

One man thinks one day is more important than another. Another man thinks every day is the same. Every man must be sure in his own mind.

www.biblegateway.com

I think your take on Romans 14 is what it was intended it to be. However, I do think that food and Sabbaths are not quite the same. I’m a guy that doesn’t eat pork or shellfish, because God obviously thinks it is a bad idea. (It is also good for the cholesterol levels.) I would not condemn anybody that does eat pork, but blood is a different thing. Here we have kiszka (a kind of blood sausage that should be made from duck). I don’t eat that because it is prohibited in both the OT and Acts 15:29, so it is not just a heart-felt choice. To me, this illustrates that James’ letter probably would have included keeping the Sabbath if he thought that the Gentiles should too.

 

[Leaf473]

I think your take on Romans 14 is what it was intended it to be.

Thanks

However, I do think that food and Sabbaths are not quite the same. I’m a guy that doesn’t eat pork or shellfish, because God obviously thinks it is a bad idea. (It is also good for the cholesterol levels.) I would not condemn anybody that does eat pork, but blood is a different thing. Here we have kiszka (a kind of blood sausage that should be made from duck). I don’t eat that because it is prohibited in both the OT and Acts 15:29, so it is not just a heart-felt choice. To me, this illustrates that James’ letter probably would have included keeping the Sabbath if he thought that the Gentiles should too.

I'll be happy to talk about food, hopefully we can stay close to the thread topic of the Sabbath day

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:27 - New American Standard Bible 1995

If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake.

www.biblegateway.com

That's an unbeliever preparing the food, so there could be lots of bad stuff in it, blood or who knows what else

Paul says don't worry about it

(Some will object that the context is about meat sacrificed to idols. That's true, however, the pagan temples weren't following the proper butchering techniques given in Leviticus. Of course, neither does the standard grocery store in the USA today
Probably not in Poland either, though I'm not sure )

 

[HIM]

The text states
πάντα μὲν καθαρά

Which is what I rendered above as
When you get right down to it, everything's clean.

μὲν = When you get right down to it
πάντα = everything
καθαρά = clean

("is" is usually implied in Greek)

What does your translation say?

It is Being said in respect to things consider common not that which is unclean.

You will not find the word for unclean in the Greek there.

 

[Leaf473]

It is Being said in respect to things consider common not that which is unclean.

You will not find the word for unclean in the Greek there.

The word Clean (katharos) is there

All things are actually clean Romans 14:20

So technically you're correct, but since the same word is there in its positive form, I don't think the case you're making holds up

 

[guevaraj]

When you get right down to it, everything's clean.

Brother, that is not what the passage says. God says what is clean but which some consider unclean, because, say as an example, it has been offered to idols, it should not be eaten because of those who are weak in faith. He has cleansed sinful humans and not animals.

Don’t tear apart the work of God over what you eat. All acceptable foods, that some find eating a stumbling block. (say because it was offered to idols) It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble. (Romans 14:20-21 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Jerry N.]

Thanks


I'll be happy to talk about food, hopefully we can stay close to the thread topic of the Sabbath day

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:27 - New American Standard Bible 1995

If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience’ sake.

www.biblegateway.com

That's an unbeliever preparing the food, so there could be lots of bad stuff in it, blood or who knows what else

Paul says don't worry about it

(Some will object that the context is about meat sacrificed to idols. That's true, however, the pagan temples weren't following the proper butchering techniques given in Leviticus. Of course, neither does the standard grocery store in the USA today
Probably not in Poland either, though I'm not sure )

I Corinthians 10:27 is basically saying that you should not offend your host and you shouldn’t ask about the source of the food. It is not a big problem today, since everybody is on some kind of special diet. However, one can image being invited into a home that offers you their best food at some expense and effort to honor you as a guest. The affront to the host is worse than the “trachea-accident,” since it is unlikely to encourage them to consider Christ.

Poland is not too bad, if you want to follow the Torah (not the Talmud). The long but tragic history of Jews in Poland has left behind some good practices (captive bolt questions not included). The kiszka I mentioned is not popular. The EU regulations are also very good, because all the ingredients can be easily learned at both stores and restaurants. They print them too small for me, but nobody is surprised if you ask.

On the topic of Sabbath, Matthew 12:11 is important in discerning how to properly keep it. One considers best choices in difficult situations. If your dog is sick on Sabbath, take it to the vet.

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, that is not what the passage says. God says what is clean but which some consider unclean, because, say as an example, it has been offered to idols, it should not be eaten because of those who are weak in faith. He has cleansed sinful humans and not animals.

Don’t tear apart the work of God over what you eat. All acceptable foods, that some find eating a stumbling block. (say because it was offered to idols) It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble. (Romans 14:20-21 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Brother how would you translate this?
πάντα μὲν καθαρά

 

[Leaf473]

I Corinthians 10:27 is basically saying that you should not offend your host and you shouldn’t ask about the source of the food.

It looks like we see that part differently

Paul says, "and you want to go". If a person honestly believes the laws of God will be transgressed at a dinner or a party, I think the best thing to do would be not to go at all.

If someone invites you to a party and you're pretty sure there's going to be a lot of heavy drinking and carousing, you probably decline I know I would

It is not a big problem today, since everybody is on some kind of special diet. However, one can image being invited into a home that offers you their best food at some expense and effort to honor you as a guest. The affront to the host is worse than the “trachea-accident,” since it is unlikely to encourage them to consider Christ.

Poland is not too bad, if you want to follow the Torah (not the Talmud). The long but tragic history of Jews in Poland has left behind some good practices (captive bolt questions not included). The kiszka I mentioned is not popular. The EU regulations are also very good, because all the ingredients can be easily learned at both stores and restaurants. They print them too small for me, but nobody is surprised if you ask.

On the topic of Sabbath, Matthew 12:11 is important in discerning how to properly keep it. One considers best choices in difficult situations. If your dog is sick on Sabbath, take it to the vet.

Definitely! How does this strike you...

On the Sabbath, only do those things that you can do in the name of the Lord and with a clear conscience

 

[Jerry N.]

It looks like we see that part differently

Paul says, "and you want to go". If a person honestly believes the laws of God will be transgressed at a dinner or a party, I think the best thing to do would be not to go at all.

If someone invites you to a party and you're pretty sure there's going to be a lot of heavy drinking and carousing, you probably decline I know I would



Definitely! How does this strike you...

On the Sabbath, only do those things that you can do in the name of the Lord and with a clear conscience

I don't see that we see things differently, I wasn't considering the party aspect. I agree.

 

[guevaraj]

Brother how would you translate this?
πάντα μὲν καθαρά

Brother, it refers to a subcategory of all things, the portion that is clean being treated as the portion that is unclean. For example, food sacrificed to idols that would otherwise be clean if it were not considered unclean because it was sacrificed to idols. It means that idols have no power to turn what is clean, unclean.

πάντα	μὲν	καθαρά,	ἀλλὰ	κακὸν	τῷ	ἀνθρώπῳ	τῷ	διὰ	προσκόμματος	ἐσθίοντι.
All things	indeed	clean,	but	wrong	to the	man	to	another	a stumbling block	eating.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, it refers to a subcategory of all things, the portion that is clean being treated as the portion that is unclean. For example, food sacrificed to idols that would otherwise be clean if it were not considered unclean because it was sacrificed to idols. It means that idols have no power to turn what is clean, unclean.

πάντα	μὲν	καθαρά,	ἀλλὰ	κακὸν	τῷ	ἀνθρώπῳ	τῷ	διὰ	προσκόμματος	ἐσθίοντι.
All things	indeed	clean,	but	wrong	to the	man	to	another	a stumbling block	eating.

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Thanks for the translation, brother

And in your view, does this kind of water have the power to make what is clean unclean?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 11:34 - New Century Version

If water from the unclean clay bowl gets on any food, that food will become unclean.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[guevaraj]

Thanks for the translation, brother

And in your view, does this kind of water have the power to make what is clean unclean?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 11:34 - New Century Version

If water from the unclean clay bowl gets on any food, that food will become unclean.

www.biblegateway.com

Brother, yes! I can see how these rules prevented people from being exposed to viruses and bacterial infections before it was understood that these things caused disease.

“If such an animal falls into a clay pot, everything in the pot will be defiled, and the pot must be smashed. If the water from such a container spills on any food, the food will be defiled. And any beverage in such a container will be defiled. Any object on which the carcass of such an animal falls will be defiled. If it is an oven or hearth, it must be destroyed, for it is defiled, and you must treat it accordingly. (Leviticus 11:33-35 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, yes! I can see how these rules prevented people from being exposed to viruses and bacterial infections before it was understood that these things caused disease.

“If such an animal falls into a clay pot, everything in the pot will be defiled, and the pot must be smashed. If the water from such a container spills on any food, the food will be defiled. And any beverage in such a container will be defiled. Any object on which the carcass of such an animal falls will be defiled. If it is an oven or hearth, it must be destroyed, for it is defiled, and you must treat it accordingly. (Leviticus 11:33-35 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Thanks, brother

And would that food, which would then be unclean, be part of the "all things" which are indeed clean?

 

[trophy33]

Hebrews 4 is a straightforward message to Jews.

There is a problem with the naming of the NT letters in English Bibles. They frequently say "Romans, Corinthians... Hebrews", while in fact its "To Romans, To Corinthians, To Hebrews...".

English speaking people get confused because of it and think all of it is written to all.