Why was Canaan cursed?

[GreenEyedLady]

Genisis 9:19-29
Genesis 9:19-29 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread. And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

Why was Canaan cursed before he was born?

GEL

 

[ZiSunka]

His father's wickedness in looking at his own father's naked body and trying to get his brothers to look, too. Noah was hurt and angry about what Ham had done, and like any human acting in the heat of emotions, he lashed out in the most vicious way, to curse Ham's son rather than Ham himself because he knew that would hurt Ham more.

Noah was not a sinless person and his anger caused him to do a mean and hurtful thing to an innocent child.

 

[Matthan]

I guess so.....

 

[Lockheed]

Noah was not a sinless person and his anger caused him to do a mean and hurtful thing to an innocent child.

If the child was 'innocent', why did God abide by Noah's curse? Though it was only Noah's words, Scripture seems to indicate that God did exactly as Noah said.

Is it not also true of God that He visited "the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations" and yet remains loving, compassionate and gracious?

Perhaps Ham's sin was another example of Adam's sin, and thus Cain's as well? Thus, even through the flood God saved Noah, yet sin remained in mankind just as there are now tares among the wheat.

Perhaps this is all somehow tied to the fact that our natural father, Adam sinned and thus we are all cursed with him since "through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners"?

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Lamb, I thought that too, but let me share with you what I learned.

Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Look at how scripture intreprets itself.....

Leviticus 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:21 And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.

Leviticus 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

So the father nakedness(Noah) is the fathers(Noah's) wife. So the reason why Canaan was cursed is because Canaan was the by product of the sin(Ham and Mrs.Noah knowing each other) of Ham. Canaan was the son of Noah's wife. The first incest. Ewwwwww.
I never saw this verse this way until I studied out "fathers nakedness."

Does anyone have a differant answer?

GEL

 

[Gold Dragon]

Lamb, I thought that too, but let me share with you what I learned.

Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Look at how scripture intreprets itself.....

Leviticus 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:21 And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.

Leviticus 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

So the father nakedness(Noah) is the fathers(Noah's) wife. So the reason why Canaan was cursed is because Canaan was the by product of the sin(Ham and Mrs.Noah knowing each other) of Ham. Canaan was the son of Noah's wife. The first incest. Ewwwwww.
I never saw this verse this way until I studied out "fathers nakedness."

Does anyone have a differant answer?

GEL

While "uncovering of nakedness" is a euphemism for sexual relations in old testament times (Leviticus 18), nakedness also means dishonour, which I believe is the context this phrase is used in the case of Ham and Noah and not the sexual meaning.

A dynamic equivalence translation like the NIV does a good job of distinguishing the difference in meaning of these similar sounding phrases.

KJV - Leviticus 18:7-8

The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

NIV - Leviticus 18:7-8

Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

While "uncovering of nakedness" is a euphemism for sexual relations in old testament times (Leviticus 18), nakedness also means dishonour, which I believe is the context this phrase is used in the case of Ham and Noah and not the sexual meaning.

A dynamic equivalence translation like the NIV does a good job of distinguishing the difference in meaning of these similar sounding phrases.

What does the NIV say if it does not say..........having sexual relations with Noahs wife? That is what is dishonoring to the father, having the sexual realations. Seems that you have proved my point even more.

GEL

 

[Gold Dragon]

What does the NIV say if it does not say..........having sexual relations with Noahs wife? That is what is dishonoring to the father, having the sexual realations. Seems that you have proved my point even more.

GEL

Ummm. Ok.

Maybe I'll explain it in different terms.

The term "nakedness" in the Hebrew ערוה always means shame or dishonour. When combined with "uncovering" (גּלה), we have a euphemism for sexual relations in certain contexts. However, I believe the context which those words are used in the Ham/Noah episode are not indicative of the sexual euphemism but the more general usage of shame and dishonour.

 

[Fat]

A cut and paste that might help change the direction of this thread.

The drunkenness of Noah is recorded in the Bible, with that fairness which is found only in the Scripture, as a case and proof of human weakness and imperfection, even though he may have been surprised into the sin; and to show that the best of men cannot stand upright, unless they depend upon Divine grace, and are upheld thereby. Ham appears to have been a bad man, and probably rejoiced to find his father in an unbecoming situation. It was said of Noah, that he was perfect in his generations, ch. 6:9; but this is meant of sincerity, not of a sinless perfection. Noah, who had kept sober in drunken company, is now drunk in sober company. Let him that thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall. We have need to be very careful when we use God's good creatures plentifully, lest we use them to excess, Lu 21:34. The consequence of Noah's sin was shame. Observe here the great evil of the sin of drunkenness. It discovers men; what infirmities they have, they betray when they are drunk; and secrets are then easily got out of them. Drunken porters keep open gates. It disgraces men, and exposes them to contempt. As it shows them, so it shames them. Men say and do that when drunken, which, when sober, they would blush to think of. Notice the care of Shem and Japheth to cover their father's shame. There is a mantle of love to be thrown over the faults of all, ( 1 Peter 4:8 ) thrown over the faults of parents and other superiors. The blessing of God attends on those who honour their parents, and his curse lights especially on those who dishonour them.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Ummm. Ok.

Maybe I'll explain it in different terms.

The term "nakedness" in the Hebrew ערוה always means shame or dishonour. When combined with "uncovering" (גּלה), we have a euphemism for sexual relations in certain contexts. However, I believe the context which those words are used in the Ham/Noah episode are not indicative of the sexual euphemism but the more general usage of shame and dishonour.

GD,
This give no evidence to why Canaan was cursed. WHY, just because Ham dishonored Noah? HOW did Ham dishonor Noah? That is the question....
GEL

 

[Iollain]

HOw old was Ham at the time this happened, it is very dishonourable to find your dad passed out drunk and naked and make any fun of him, and try to get others to look, imo
Where it says 'uncovered his nakedness' do ya's suppose he took the clothes right off of Noah and made fun of his body?

 

[ZiSunka]

What does the NIV say if it does not say..........having sexual relations with Noahs wife? That is what is dishonoring to the father, having the sexual realations. Seems that you have proved my point even more.

GEL

That's pretty far-fetched. Noah's wife isn't even mentioned in this passage, and the other sons clearly went into the tent to cover up their father's nakedness, not their mother's. It isn't even mentioned that mother is naked. Noah got drunk and left himself exposed inside his tent. His son Ham went into the tent, got a look at their father in his drunken and naked state and went to get his brothers so they could ridicule their father in his vulnerable state, too. The other sons knew it was disrespectful and chose to cover him up without looking at him instead. Ham's sin wasn't having sex with his mother, it was ridiculing his father in a vulnerable state and wanting his brothers to do it, too.

Noah had just come through the most stressful situation possible, at the other end he discovers that every human being except his own family has been killed by God's wrath, that every animal except those on his ark have also perished due to God's wrath at man, and Noah feels--what? Maybe he doesn't even know. Fear, sorrow, emotional pain, doubt. So he gets drunk. It's a human reaction to lessor stresses. His son, instead of respecting his father and feeling some of what Noah is feeling, doesn't grasp the seriousness of the situation on earth and chooses to go look at his father in a reduced state and ridicule him while he is asleep.

So when Noah wakes up, he realizes that someone came in and covered him up. He's angry that his boys didn't understand what's going on and be kind to him instead of mean. He finds out it is Ham and curses not him, but his son, the same relationship he has with Ham. My mom always used to tell my sister that she hoped Kathy would have a child as difficult to raise as she was so that Kathy could come to understand why my mom did the things she did while Kathy was growing up.

God didn't curse Ham or Canaan, Noah did. We have the power of blessing or cursing, the book of James says so. God didn't have to curse Canaan for it to be effective. That's why when you hear people take the words, (using God's name in vain) lightly they don't understand what they are doing.

Noah cursed Canaan as a punishment for Ham's sin, and so Ham would come to identify with Noah's feelings.

 

[ZiSunka]

GD,
This give no evidence to why Canaan was cursed. WHY, just because Ham dishonored Noah? HOW did Ham dishonor Noah? That is the question....
GEL

He saw him naked and drunk, that's how. Ham is never going to be able to respect his dad after seeing that. "Honor your mother and father" is one of the ten commandments, and yes, those hadn't been handed down yet at this time, but it's a timeless principle, that you honor and respect those people who brought you into the world and/or raised you. You owe everything to them, your very existence. If you see them drunk, passed out, naked, you will never be able to honor them the right way again unless you repent and let God start to heal. Ham didn't beg Noah's forgiveness, he went and got his brothers so they could lose respect for Noah, too.

 

[Gold Dragon]

GD,
This give no evidence to why Canaan was cursed. WHY, just because Ham dishonored Noah? HOW did Ham dishonor Noah? That is the question....
GEL

Noah didn't just curse Canaan because of Ham, but blessed Shem and Japeth. This whole blessing and cursing happened right after this episode with Noah's nakedness so it can easily be deduced that their actions in that episode either resulted in a blessing or a curse.

So the "plain" interpretation would be that Shem and Japeth covered their father's nakedness without looking at him, while Ham looked and did nothing about it but instead told his brothers. Noah blessed the older brothers for their honourable treatment of him in an embarassing situation and cursed Ham and his son Canaan for Ham's dishonourable treatment of the situation.

The fact that uncovering of nakedness is also a euphemism for sexual relations in other contexts, does not mean that this episode was one that involved sexual relations.

 

[ZiSunka]

What does the NIV say if it does not say..........having sexual relations with Noahs wife? That is what is dishonoring to the father, having the sexual realations. Seems that you have proved my point even more.

GEL

You're looking at this from a 21st century, post sexual revolution position, where women go half naked to the grocery store (I actually saw a woman and her daughter walking around Krogers in bikinis, no coverups, without looking like they were the least bit embarassed). Now, even having sex in public is something laughed at in sitcoms. All the state beaches in Ohio now allow total nudity, too.

But in all previous times, it was shameful to be naked in public. Nakedness was shameful even if you weren't having sex at the time.

 

[Gold Dragon]

HOw old was Ham at the time this happened, it is very dishonourable to find your dad passed out drunk and naked and make any fun of him, and try to get others to look, imo

The bible says that Noah was around 500 when he had his kids, Japeth, Shem and Ham. (He sure took his time )

KJV - Genesis 5:32

And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

They got in the ark when Noah was around 600.

KJV - Genesis 7:11

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

So assuming Ham was born near Noah's early 500s, he was about 100.

Where it says 'uncovered his nakedness' do ya's suppose he took the clothes right off of Noah and made fun of his body.

I think the simplest assumption is that in Noah's drunkeness, he took off his clothes to go to bed but didn't put his PJs on.

 

[ZiSunka]

Ham, father of Canaan, saw his father naked. So he went outside and told his two brothers.

Ham didn't take off his father's clothes, he found his father already naked.

23 Shem and Japheth took a blanket and laid it over their shoulders. Then they walked in backwards and covered their father's naked body. They turned their faces away so that they didn't see their father naked.

The other two boys refused to disrespect their father, instead they respected him enough to cover him so Ham couldn't go in again and look at their father's nakedness. Clearly there is no sexual intent here. The boys covered their father in such a way as to protect his modesty by walking backwards into the tent so they wouldn't even see his body. If just looking at nakedness was okay they would have just walked in and covered him up. If Ham had done something sexual with their mother, they would have covered her up. I just don't see any sex in this passage at all.

24 When Noah sobered up, he found out what his youngest son had done to him. 25 So he said, "Canaan is cursed! He will be the lowest slave to his brothers. 26 Praise the LORD, the God of Shem! Canaan will be his slave. 27 May God expand the territory of Japheth. May he live in the tents of Shem. Canaan will be his slave."

I don't see any evidence that God cursed Canaan. Noah did all the cursing.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

I still do not see how you all can use the phrase, uncovered the fathers nakedness, as an unterpretation of being naked. Scripture points out in more passages that I listed.

Leviticus chapters 18 and chapter 20.
Then there is this one, which I have not mentioned.........


Deuteronomy 27:20 Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Scripture reveals itself again.

I wanted to point out that Canaan was not even born yet. He is not even mentioned in the geneology until the next chapter.
Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
But Noah knew his name, knew he would be born and cursed him. According to scripture, the curse is because Ham laid with Noahs wife and the other 2 brothers, having the oppurtunity, walked away closing thier eyes, which is why they recieved the blessing.

GEL

 

[Gold Dragon]

I guess you've already made up your mind about this.

I wanted to point out that Canaan was not even born yet. He is not even mentioned in the geneology until the next chapter.
Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
But Noah knew his name, knew he would be born and cursed him.

You may be right that Canaan was not born yet. But his name being mentioned two times in that chapter before the curse and Ham "seeing" the nakedness of his father would suggest otherwise.

KJV - Gen 9:18

Now the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem and Ham and Japheth; and Ham was the father of Canaan.

KJV - Gen 9:22

Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.

According to scripture, the curse is because Ham laid with Noahs wife and the other 2 brothers, having the oppurtunity, walked away closing thier eyes, which is why they recieved the blessing.

That is a creative interpretation that is unfortunately unsupported by a plain reading of the text.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

That is a creative interpretation that is unfortunately unsupported by a plain reading of the text.

Exept for the support of Leviticus and Dueteronmy which does support it!