Why was Arius so popular?

mindlight

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While accepting that Arius was wrong about Jesus I wonder why he was so popular. It took a lot for Athanasius and others to overthrow his doctrine. Despite the clear declaration of Nicea in 325 it took centuries to extricate him from the mainstream. Even today we have fast growing cults like Jehovah Witnesses who share a version of his teaching. You could even argue that Islam was a form of Arianism. So why was it so hard for people to understand Jesus is fully God, has no beginning and is consubstantial with the Father?
 

Petros2015

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So why was it so hard for people to understand Jesus is fully God, has no beginning and is consubstantial with the Father?

Difficult to reconcile Trinity with monotheism.
Hyper-Dimensional?
"I have a son; my son came from me but is not me and I was before my son" is the experience that most people have, so Arius adjusted the theology to their lives and experience rather than their lives and experience to the theology
 
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dzheremi

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Read HH St. Athanasius' De Decretis (a.k.a. On the Defense of the Nicaean Definition), if you haven't already. It will give you a sense of some of the objections people of the time had to the Nicene definition, though not all who had reservations were actual Arians (as the saint points out in the preamble to the Defense).

More generally, I would say that there is a certain prejudice towards the party that seems to have the simplest doctrine. That's understandable, right? It's 'easier' to preach one God that is a kind of monad (i.e., Islam, Rabbinic Judaism) than to preach One God in three Persons. People want a simple God they can understand, rather than a set of theological principles which elucidate (in so far as it is possible) how we have one God Who is Three-in-One and One-in-Three. Our EO friend above is correct that the former is more directly relatable to people's own experience of what it is to be fathers than the latter is (though I disagree that it is hard to reconcile Trinitarianism with monotheism; that's precisely what our common father HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic and others did in defeating Arianism and other soul-destroying heresies).

Recall, e.g., how even our Lord's own disciples could not take His hard sayings (such that many left Him), and said that He spoke often in parables which were not immediately understandable. And the other Jews likewise said to Him "If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Arianism is certainly more plain, but not any more true for it.
 
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...why was it so hard for people to understand Jesus is fully God, has no beginning and is consubstantial with the Father?

Begotten implies a time of begetting which implies non-eternal.

First-born implies a birthing which implies non-eternal.

It is very easy to accept Arianism.
 
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Difficult to reconcile Trinity with monotheism.
Hyper-Dimensional?
"I have a son; my son came from me but is not me and I was before my son" is the experience that most people have, so Arius adjusted the theology to their lives and experience rather than their lives and experience to the theology

Exactly, “My thoughts are above your thoughts and my ways above your ways.” we respond to the Divine reality rather than trying to neatly package him inside our own understanding. John 1:1 is clear- “In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God.”
 
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Petros2015

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It's interesting to me that Arianism apparently really took off with the barbarian Goths...
...Who then turned around and sacked Rome.

Vandal Kingdom - Wikipedia

Although primarily remembered for the sack of Rome in 455 and their persecution of Nicene Christians in favor of Arian Christianity,

Oops.

Facing a Vandal/Visigoth army the Romans can't dislodge and that has strong feelings about one or two particular doctrines, I can see how compromise might quickly get put on the table lol.
 
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dzheremi

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Arianism lived on in Visigothic Spain even longer than that, as King Reccared I (d. 601) did not convert to Nicaean Christianity until 587. Prior to that the rulers of Hispania had been Arian for at least two centuries (since before even the founding of Visigothic Spain, which was in 418, as part of the wider Visigothic kingdom that included the Iberian Peninsula and southwestern France).
 
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Read HH St. Athanasius' De Decretis (a.k.a. On the Defense of the Nicaean Definition), if you haven't already. It will give you a sense of some of the objections people of the time had to the Nicene definition, though not all who had reservations were actual Arians (as the saint points out in the preamble to the Defense).

More generally, I would say that there is a certain prejudice towards the party that seems to have the simplest doctrine. That's understandable, right? It's 'easier' to preach one God that is a kind of monad (i.e., Islam, Rabbinic Judaism) than to preach One God in three Persons. People want a simple God they can understand, rather than a set of theological principles which elucidate (in so far as it is possible) how we have one God Who is Three-in-One and One-in-Three. Our EO friend above is correct that the former is more directly relatable to people's own experience of what it is to be fathers than the latter is (though I disagree that it is hard to reconcile Trinitarianism with monotheism; that's precisely what our common father HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic and others did in defeating Arianism and other soul-destroying heresies).

Recall, e.g., how even our Lord's own disciples could not take His hard sayings (such that many left Him), and said that He spoke often in parables which were not immediately understandable. And the other Jews likewise said to Him "If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Arianism is certainly more plain, but not any more true for it.

Thanks for the link which I am working through and which gives some context. The parallels between the studied Jews who could not reconcile their traditional view of God and the man Christ is interesting. But while it might be easier to separate man and God in Christ that is not so easy as his creation miracles, his resurrection and his teaching make clear. He is clearly not just a creature if he receives the worship of angels and the declaration of praise by Thomas of my Lord and my God without complaint. That he was executed on a charge of blasphemy also makes clear the implication of his words and actions. Also those who do not know the OT well may not have noticed a God who condescends to come down to us, to meet with Moses face to face and to fill the temple with his presence. It is not simple to be an Arian if the broader truth of scripture is understood. The truth is like an earthquake overthrowing worldliness and self deception and shattering the neat packages by which men try to cage God with us Emmanuel
 
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mindlight

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Begotten implies a time of begetting which implies non-eternal.

First-born implies a birthing which implies non-eternal.

It is very easy to accept Arianism.

Being in very nature God He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. The words of scripture chip away at so called simplicity to reveal an eternally begotten Son, of the same substance as God
 
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Arianism lived on in Visigothic Spain even longer than that, as King Reccared I (d. 601) did not convert to Nicaean Christianity until 587. Prior to that the rulers of Hispania had been Arian for at least two centuries (since before even the founding of Visigothic Spain, which was in 418, as part of the wider Visigothic kingdom that included the Iberian Peninsula and southwestern France).

Constantine himself was tempted by Arian doctrine. I wonder if a Roman Emperor found it easier to believe in a God that gave him victories than one who would share in our frail humanity and suffer with us and for us. It was a different view of kingship than that of elevated monarchs with giant statues of themselves looking down on mankind like grasshoppers or naming cities after themselves so that their own names might live forever.
 
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It's interesting to me that Arianism apparently really took off with the barbarian Goths...
...Who then turned around and sacked Rome.

Vandal Kingdom - Wikipedia

Although primarily remembered for the sack of Rome in 455 and their persecution of Nicene Christians in favor of Arian Christianity,

Oops.

Facing a Vandal/Visigoth army the Romans can't dislodge and that has strong feelings about one or two particular doctrines, I can see how compromise might quickly get put on the table lol.

But why did the Goths find Arian doctrine so attractive?
 
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dzheremi

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But why did the Goths find Arian doctrine so attractive?

This aspect of Christian history is not one of my strong points, but weren't the Goths first evangelized by Arian bishops, such as the infamous Wulfila(s) who translated the Bible into the Gothic language?
 
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“In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and the Logos was God.”

Careful here though - "Logos" had some definitions in John's time in Greek that might not be what has been attributed to it in recent times. I'm not sure Logos => Word => Son or Logos => Word => Bible. A more accurate translation might be Logos => Wisdom => Plan perhaps. Interesting to research John's intent in using this word in this verse, it may have been similar to Paul using phrases the Greeks normally attributed to Zeus to describe God, "as your philosophers have said, in him we live and move and have our being" because they were familiar with them
 
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But why did the Goths find Arian doctrine so attractive?

No idea. But if only the Arian bishops found the Goth barbarians to be attractive and bothered to evangelize them, that could be the answer. And then boom - you have a nice barbarian army at your back ready to counter-persecute.

Arians got dislodged and re-established a few times; Constantine never really 'finished the job' after he called the counsels to make up their minds, and they would wax and wane in and out of Imperial favor and protection. So sometimes they were out of favor. Where do you go when you are out of favor? Hmmm. How about these barbarians over here getting treated like second class citizens? Hey! Suddenly we have an army!
 
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This aspect of Christian history is not one of my strong points, but weren't the Goths first evangelized by Arian bishops, such as the infamous Wulfila(s) who translated the Bible into the Gothic language?

Cool insight. I happen to believe that Arius like Nestorius much later were both saved Christians but with confused theologies. In scripture God used persecution or indeed arguments between fellow believers to spread the gospel far and wide. So teams that would have stayed in one place were split up and went to more places as a result. Eventually the Goths would recite the Nicene creeds like the rest of the church, but the passion of heretics for Jesus is what got them first. For the same reason I always praise the Jehovah witness who knocks on my door for making the effort. Then I lay into him with the truthes of scripture.
 
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No idea. But if only the Arian bishops found the Goth barbarians to be attractive and bothered to evangelize them, that could be the answer. And then boom - you have a nice barbarian army at your back ready to counter-persecute.

Arians got dislodged and re-established a few times; Constantine never really 'finished the job' after he called the counsels to make up their minds, and they would wax and wane in and out of Imperial favor and protection. So sometimes they were out of favor. Where do you go when you are out of favor? Hmmm. How about these barbarians over here getting treated like second class citizens? Hey! Suddenly we have an army!

There is a kind of worldliness about the idea that an army will give you control over church doctrine. Constantine seems to have had his own understanding over thrown by the bishops of the church on Arianism even though he had more legions than the pope
 
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Careful here though - "Logos" had some definitions in John's time in Greek that might not be what has been attributed to it in recent times. I'm not sure Logos => Word => Son or Logos => Word => Bible. A more accurate translation might be Logos => Wisdom => Plan perhaps. Interesting to research John's intent in using this word in this verse, it may have been similar to Paul using phrases the Greeks normally attributed to Zeus to describe God, "as your philosophers have said, in him we live and move and have our being" because they were familiar with them

Logos was the word John chose for a reason. I understand Philo the Alexandrian Jew previously used it positively giving it a wisdom context and background. But Johns usage clearly implies Divinity and defies Cerinthus who had an alternate perspective at the time he wrote his gospel. This is a part of my incredulity at Arian popularity, it was clear very early on in the apostolic teaching that Jesus was God, this is the clear sense of scripture and that Arians have misunderstood Sonship in merely human terns
 
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