Why turn to the saints when we have Jesus?

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." --Philippians 4​

It's a fair question that raises valid concerns; here's a short video with a nice explanation!

And for the many Protestants who will be skeptical (and rightfully so) of teachings that don't sound Biblical, please watch this video from a former Protestant pastor about Mary & the "Where's that in the Bible?" question in general:

Please also pay attention to the very respectful delivery of these people; I appreciate how they can discuss controversial theology in such a kind manner, keeping in mind who's watching.

May God bless us all, especially with the grace of respect of neighbor!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"grace gems" exposing catholicism today
Search for articles free online.

 

[Albion]

Just let us in on the theory you want us to consider.

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

Just let us in on the theory you want us to consider.

There were a few reasons for me sharing this. One was that I just found this interesting; another was for Catholics to get a better understanding of the roles & Scripture of Mary & the saints. I've heard of (though never met) Catholics who pray to the saints instead of Jesus, and that's just missing the point; this would help Catholics pray more Biblically, more in line with Church teachings.

And yes, this is also for my non -Catholic brothers & sisters, to help bring others to the church that I truly believe is the fullest expression of Christianity. The saints are one of my favorite things about being Catholic; we learn so much from the stories of Paul, Abraham, Peter, Stephen, and other such saints who appear in the Bible; why not learn from people who dedicated their lives to God in every time & place? And if we can ask the Body of Christ on Earth for prayers, why not ask the Body of Christ in Heaven? Mary in particular is regarded as the most powerful intercessor before God, and God gave Himself to her for the salvation of the world. She is the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son, and the spouse of the Holy Spirit. If God honored her so much, why shouldn't we?

So the theory I want you to consider is this: Based on everything presented in the 2 videos, I invite you to prayerfully consider that the Catholic teaching on the saints & Mary is true, Biblical, beautiful, and good to believe. I have come to know from my time on Christian Forums that no one can make anyone else believe anything; we can only find & create good explanations for our beliefs, and throw it out here, to see what happens. This is what I'm doing; I found what I believe to be solid explanations of the Catholic view of the saints & of Mary, and I'm throwing it out here, in prayerful hope to bring others to the fullness of Christianity.

May God bless us all, with peace & respect & open -mindedness to His wonderful will!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I found what I believe to be solid explanations of the Catholic view of the saints & of Mary

and I'm throwing it out here, in prayerful hope to bring others to the fullness of Christianity.

As the Protestants learned and revealed centuries past,
Those two separate things are not the same, and not at all compatible.

 

[Lost4words]

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." --Philippians 4​

It's a fair question that raises valid concerns; here's a short video with a nice explanation!

And for the many Protestants who will be skeptical (and rightfully so) of teachings that don't sound Biblical, please watch this video from a former Protestant pastor about Mary & the "Where's that in the Bible?" question in general:

Please also pay attention to the very respectful delivery of these people; I appreciate how they can discuss controversial theology in such a kind manner, keeping in mind who's watching.

May God bless us all, especially with the grace of respect of neighbor!

Great post. 2nd video tells so many truths.

God bless you

 

[Albion]

So the theory I want you to consider is this: Based on everything presented in the 2 videos, I invite you to prayerfully consider that the Catholic teaching on the saints & Mary is true, Biblical, beautiful, and good to believe.

Thanks much. Honoring the saints is a worthy practice. There is nothing in Scripture, however, that authorizes us praying TO them, asking for them to help us get something, considering them to have powers apart from God's, and certainly not believing that the saints have more influence with God than we do (meaning that we need a middle-man or else God is unlikely to answer our prayers). There is, in fact, no reason to think that they can even hear our prayers.

However, it is true that they stand as models for us to emulate, they pray on their own to God for us who are still in the flesh, and they are in the presence of God.

Unfortunately, many Catholics do engage in and believe all or most of that which is listed in the first paragraph above.

 

[jahel]

(meaning that we need a middle-man or else God is unlikely to answer our prayers).
Christ the mediator

 

[Lost4words]

As is evident with Albions post above, protestants mistakenly believe they know Catholics / Catholicism.

 

[Albion]

(meaning that we need a middle-man or else God is unlikely to answer our prayers).
Christ the mediator

So that there is no misunderstanding on this point, Christ is "our only Mediator and Advocate." He is also God, as well as having taken on our nature, so this is totally different from thinking of a deceased human, a declared saint, to be one's mediator or advocate with the Father.

 

[jahel]

As is evident with Albions post above, protestants mistakenly believe they know Catholics / Catholicism.

Is it safe to say that realizing strength in a person is just as recognizable in an eagle? Or wisdom personified in an owl? I wouldn’t believe that praying to one or even eating one would access me to that which I desire by just seeing it in others. There is an acquisition thru other means. One cannot approve one and condemn the other. That’s very double-minded.

 

[Lost4words]

The church includes both the living and the dead. All united and alive in our belief in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Albion]

Is it safe to say that realizing strength in a person is just as recognizable in an eagle? Or wisdom personified in an owl? I wouldn’t believe that praying to one or even eating one would access me to that which I desire by just seeing it in others. There is an acquisition thru other means. One cannot approve one and condemn the other. That’s very double-minded.

and, according to our friend's way of thinking, he cannot know what Protestants think or believe, since he is not one himself. Of course, it doesn't make sense, but that's what we were told.

 

[jahel]

and, according to our friend's way of thinking, he cannot know what Protestants think or believe, since he is not one himself. Of course, it doesn't make sense, but that's what we were told.

Obviously above everyone’s pay grade .

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

As is evident with Albions post above, protestants mistakenly believe they know Catholics / Catholicism.

and, according to our friend's way of thinking, he cannot know what Protestants think or believe, since he is not one himself. Of course, it doesn't make sense, but that's what we were told.

Obviously above everyone’s pay grade .

First of all, let's not go after each other here, and keep focused on ideas rather than beginning a potentially heated argument.

Anyway...

Thanks much.

You're welcome!

There is nothing in Scripture, however, that authorizes us praying TO them, asking for them to help us get something, considering them to have powers apart from God's, and certainly not believing that the saints have more influence with God than we do (meaning that we need a middle-man or else God is unlikely to answer our prayers). There is, in fact, no reason to think that they can even hear our prayers..

Prayer in the form of worship is reserved for God alone; prayer as a form of communication can be for the saints in Heaven as well, for the same reason that we can ask the saints on Earth for assistance. This does not imply that they have power apart from God; all the power of the saints comes from God. Remember St. Paul's discussion on spiritual gifts? 1 Corinthians 12. God distributes different gifts, different powers to each of us, and it's all from the same spirit.

As far as the saints as a "middle-man", why do we ask others for prayers on Earth? It's a union of the Body of Christ. Death has been conquered; there's no reason to think that the saints on Earth should be spiritually separated from the saints in Heaven.

The Transfiguration shows that the saints in Heaven are invested in Earthly affairs; Luke 9 tells the story most thoroughly. Included in all 3 Gospel accounts of the event is a description of this: "And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem" (Luke 9).

And again, why would the Body of Christ be separated by death? Why would our deceased relatives be spiritually separated from us? Why would the Body of Christ be unable to communicate with itself?

If you want a very thorough explanation, former Evangelical Protestant Dave Armstrong wrote a book called "A Biblical Defense of Catholicism". He did a year-long in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism, and converted, becoming a popular Catholic apologetics author. If you're interested, here's a brief story of his conversion: My Catholic Conversion in a Nutshell

May God bless us all!

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

As the Protestants learned and revealed centuries past,
Those two separate things are not the same, and not at all compatible.

Was the Church getting it wrong for the first 1500 years? Near as I can tell, the rejection of the spiritual assistance of the saints in Heaven (and the implication that the Body of Christ is somehow separated by physical death of its mystical members) is a man -made, unbiblical tradition. Please see my above response to our brother Albion for more explanation of what I mean, as well as the part in the video of the former Protestant pastor about how long-term these beliefs about Mary have been.

May God continue to bless us all!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

More is wrong today than ever before.

 

[concretecamper]

considering them to have powers apart from God's

The Church doesnt teach this and I've never met a Catholic who believes this. 1st incorrect statement.

and certainly not believing that the saints have more influence with God than we do

Those in Heaven DO have more influence than those on earth. It is biblical.
2nd incorrect statement.

There is, in fact, no reason to think that they can even hear our prayers.

It is biblical that those in heaven are keenly aware of what go on here on earth. 3rd incorrect statement.

Unfortunately, many Catholics do engage in and believe all or most of that which is listed in the first paragraph above.

Obviously, the first paragraph is full of incorrect statements.

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

The Church doesnt teach this and I've never met a Catholic who believes this. 1st incorrect statement.
Those in Heaven DO have more influence than those on earth. It is biblical.
2nd incorrect statement.

It is biblical that those in heaven are keenly aware of what go on here on earth. 3rd incorrect statement.

Obviously, the first paragraph is full of incorrect statements.

This goes for everyone: Please do share reasons for why you believe something to be unbiblical. I try to run a respectable thread where Christian controversies can be discussed in a manner that makes the non-Christians see our beautiful faith as something more than senseless arguments. While I appreciate people sharing their views, please back them up. If people will be calling each other out, I want you to do so with intelligence & respect, or not at all. Cool?

Peace out, God bless, be very good to each other!

 

[Albion]

Prayer in the form of worship is reserved for God alone; prayer as a form of communication can be for the saints in Heaven as well, for the same reason that we can ask the saints on Earth for assistance.

I'm sorry, but those who have passed into the afterlife ARE not the same as our neighbor next door--the person referred to in scripture. You do not even know for a fact that Saint SoandSo IS in heaven other than that the church has canonized him and you trust the church to have been right about that. Or that they can hear our prayers. And you have no basis for believing that they are needed to intervene on your behalf with God. Jesus, you remember, explicitly taught that we are to take out petitions the the FATHER and that he waiting to hear from you.

This does not imply that they have power apart from God

Many prayers, formalized and printed prayers, say the opposite, however.

The Transfiguration shows that the saints in Heaven are invested in Earthly affairs; Luke 9 tells the story most thoroughly. Included in all 3 Gospel accounts of the event is a description of this: "And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem" (Luke 9).

You cannot generalize from the one-time even to make it fit what we are speaking of here. Even if that were valid to do, it isn't the same situation. You probably know that to be so, since you chose to call it "are invested in Earthly affairs" which is remarkably vague and does not speak to what we have been discussing here.

As far as the saints as a "middle-man", why do we ask others for prayers on Earth?

WHY people do this isn't really the issue. They have been told that it's good to do. They hope it "works." There are many reasons why. However, the issue concerns the rightness or wrongness of doing it.