WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY

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Tone

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Read the verse (Acts 20:7) again.

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread.

The disciples came together on SUNDAY to break bread. The verse says nothing about the timing in relation to the Sabbath ending.

Just read the text.

This is exactly why I don't see how these two verses (got any more?) Support what you want them to support.

We can easily get the context by studying a bit on how Sabbath was and is observed.

This is why the meal after Shabbat (sundown on Saturday) makes sense.

You are reading back into the text 100s of years of church tradition. I am looking at it through a Hebrew lens, which was the looking glass of the time, when these accounts were written about.
 
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Carl Emerson

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HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. (Aramaic)

In my time on CF I have concluded that theology without a deep understanding of the Father heart of God is a dangerous tool. The idea that God has allowed central issues of faith to be locked up in some largely unknown Aramaic manuscript so that only a small sect can truly come to faith and fulfill His requirements is ludicrous. For God so loved the world has suddenly become for God so loved a sect.

My God has made His Word known to all throughout the ages and is looking for a heart response to Himself personally from the least to the greatest, from the clever to the simple.

The Gospel cant depend on a technicality from one ancient script, to think otherwise is to condemn the billions who have lived with the translations that have been provided.

He has watched over the process of preserving the bible truths we depend on, to think otherwise makes Him a tyrant.
 
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This next post will look at showing why I believe the LORD'S DAY is in reference to the SABBATH DAY and not Sunday and continuing from the first post, the second post will also show why "THE LORD'S DAY in REVELATION 1:10 cannot be "THE DAY OF THE LORD (Second coming) like some others think it means. I hope you can consider these posts in the Spirit in which they have been given and prayerfully read what is posted and shared with you like one of God's faithful Bareans.

THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY WHY?

Let's look at the scripture and the old Koine Greek

REVELATION 1:10 [10] I WAS IN THE SPIRIT ON THE LORD'S DAY, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The Greek words used for the day that JOHN was in the Spirit of is the for LORD'S DAY are

REVELATION 1:10 εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος

The word "κυριακη" (translit. "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine. This means it is being used as a 'possessive' as ownership or belonging to ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), which means the "day" in context belongs to "the Lord". It is literally "the Lord's (belonging to) day". This means, that the "day" in context is uniquely "the Lord's" out of all the 7 days of the week, for the day under consideration is that which exists within the week, as a day which repeats weekly. This is extremely important, as those who incorrectly assume it to mean "the first [day] of the week" in lieu of Jesus' resurrection, cannot get a weekly occurrence out of a one-time event, in fulfilment of typology of the Firstfruit/Wavesheaf in Leviticus 23:9-14, as made known in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23..

In ISIAIAH 58:13, we read of a "day" that "the Lord" specifically calls "my day" as in ownership or belonging to:

ISAIAH 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from THE SABBATH, from doing thy pleasure on MY HOLY DAY; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

In many translations of Isaiah 58:13 we read that the 7th day, the sabbath of the Lord, is said to be "the Lord's holy day", with the word holy being another adjective, while the "Lord's" is possessive. - /Isaiah 58:13 - Bible Gateway

There is only one that he has BLESSED and made HIS HOLY DAY OF REST and has commanded his people to REMEMBER and keep *GENESIS 2:1-3; EXODUS 20:8-11

God's "OWNERSHIP" of the SABBATH DAY or "LORD'S DAY is also repeated elsewhere as "MY" (ownership of the day as in the Greek used in REVELATION 1:10 κυριακη)

EXODUS 31:12-18 [12] Then the Lord said to Moses, [13] Say to the Israelites, You must observe MY SABBATHS (belonging to; ownership to the Lord; or LORD'S DAY). This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

MATTHEW 12:8 as well as MARK 2:27-28 show that JESUS is GOD and the CREATOR of HEAVEN and EARTH as witnessed by MOSES in GENESIS chapters 1 and 2.

JESUS says that he is the LORD (CREATOR) even of the SABBATH DAY. It is the LORDS DAY because on the SABBATH DAY JESUS; Set the SEVENTH DAY of the week apart for mankind as a HOLY DAY. On the SEVENTH DAY of CREATION GOD (JESUS) BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY, and SET IT APART as a HOLY DAY for mankind (BEFORE THE FALL) to REST with GOD. *GENESIS 2:1-3.

What these scriptures prove is that the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH is the LORDS DAY that he set apart for mankind and show he is the creator of HEAVEN and EARTH. Now JOHN in REVELATION 1:10 knew that JESUS is the creator GOD and he refers to the SABBATH DAY as the LORD'S DAY *MATTHEW 12:8. There is no scripture that says SUNDAY is "THE LORDS DAY" but JESUS says he is the LORD (CREATOR) even of the SABBATH DAY *MATTHEW 12:8. JOHN in reference to being in the Spirit on “THE LORDS DAY REVELATION 1:10 is referring to JESUS as the creator of heaven and earth and the SABBATH DAY that GOD rested, blessed and made holy for mankind on the SEVENTH DAY of creation is the one day in seven that God claims as His own.

...................

So now we have looked at the GREEK application and word meanings as well as parrallel scriptures of the LORD'S OWNERSHIP of the SABBATH DAY from the old testament. Let's look at the new testament scriptures that define what day is THE LORDS DAY asking the question...

WHICH DAY IS THE LORDS DAY OR THE DAY?

MATTHEW 12:8 FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY. (LORD'S OWNERSHIP)

MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:[28], THEREFORE THE SON OF MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH. (LORD'S OWNERSHIP)

.............

CONCLUSION: Based on the Greek words used and the old and new testament scriptures as shown above THE LORD'S DAY is in reference to the day that the LORD claims as his own that has it's origin in creation that he rested, blessed and set apart as a holy day for all mankind. THE LORDS DAY therefore that JOHN was in the Spirit on in REVELATION 1:10 is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH that belongs to God who claims ownership of in both the old and new testament scriptures.

What is most important is that it does not matter as to what day of the week that each person or culture chooses to have their sabbath. (Rom. 14:5, Col. 2:16) What is important is that everyone has a Sabbath day.
 
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Tone

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I have a serious problem with Gentiles attempting to obey the law.

The Gospel cant depend on a technicality from one ancient script, to think otherwise is to condemn the billions who have lived with the translations that have been provided.

I don't see any of this going on here.


*Nothing ungodly about trying to get things right.
 
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Carl Emerson

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There is no record in the scripture that Gentile nations will obtain the promised land (Israel). By diligently obeying the law of Moses.

In fact the promise of the land was given to Abraham way before Moses and it is the faith of Abraham, the Father of All Who Have Faith, that saves us, not the keeping of the Law or Sabbath day.

Galatians 3:5-14 Read it for yourself...

5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.


And Abraham was a gentile when He was promised the land...

For this reason I did not feel like a second class citizen while in Israel.

The blessing of Abraham includes the promise of the Land - we receive this by faith.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I don't see any of this going on here.


*Nothing ungodly about trying to get things right.

Maybe you missed the way that the usual translation of Heb 4:9 was dismissed in favor of a largely unheard of aramaic text that contradicts the meaning of the passage in order to support a salvation by law proposition.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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This is exactly why I don't see how these two verses (got any more?) Support what you want them to support.

We can easily get the context by studying a bit on how Sabbath was and is observed.

This is why the meal after Shabbat (sundown on Saturday) makes sense.

You are reading back into the text 100s of years of church tradition. I am looking at it through a Hebrew lens, which was the looking glass of the time, when these accounts were written about.

Sunday is the first day of the week, not the Seventh.

" The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2; in Apocalypse 1:10, it is called the Lord's day. In the Didache (14) the injunction is given: "On the Lord's Day come together and break bread. And give thanks (offer the Eucharist), after confessing your sins that your sacrifice may be pure". St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day (i.e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead"." CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday

"It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord's day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed." CHURCH FATHERS: Registrum Epistolarum, Book XIII, Letter 1 (Gregory the Great)

" And yet your nameless metropolitan disputant calls such an one carnal, even though for five successive days of the week, excepting the seventh and the Lord's day, he so fast as to withhold all refection from the body;

...

Scripture states further concerning the apostle: When he therefore had come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. Acts 20:11 Far be it from us to accept this as affirming that the apostles were accustomed to fast habitually on the Lord's day. For the day now known as the Lord's day was then called the first day of the week, as is more plainly seen in the Gospels; for the day of the Lord's resurrection is called by Matthew μία σαββάτων, and by the other three evangelists ἡ μία (τῶν) σαββάτων, and it is well ascertained that the same is the day which is now called the Lord's day. Either, therefore, it was after the close of the seventh day that they had assembled — namely, in the beginning of the night which followed, and which belonged to the Lord's day, or the first day of the week — and in this case the apostle, before proceeding to break bread with them, as is done in the sacrament of the body of Christ, continued his discourse until midnight, and also, after celebrating the sacrament, continued still speaking again to those who were assembled, being much pressed for time in order that he might set out at dawn upon the Lord's day; or if it was on the first day of the week, at an hour before sunset on the Lord's day, that they had assembled, the words of the text, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow, themselves expressly state the reason for his prolonging his discourse — namely, that he was about to leave them, and wished to give them ample instruction. The passage does not therefore prove that they habitually fasted on the Lord's day, but only that it did not seem meet to the apostle to interrupt, for the sake of taking refreshment, an" CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 36 (St. Augustine)

"5. We are not afraid to meet your scoff at the Sabbath, when you call it the fetters of Saturn. It is a silly and unmeaning expression, which occurred to you only because you are in the habit of worshipping the sun on what you call Sunday. What you call Sunday we call the Lord's day, and on it we do not worship the sun, but the Lord's resurrection. And in the same way, the fathers observed the rest of the Sabbath, not because they worshipped Saturn, but because it was incumbent at that time, for it was a shadow of things to come, as the apostle testifies. Colossians 2:17 The Gentiles, of whom the apostle says that they "worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator," Romans 1:25 gave the names of their gods to the days of the week. And so far you do the same, except that you worship only the two brightest luminaries, and not the rest of the stars, as the Gentiles did. Besides, the Gentiles gave the names of their gods to the months. In honor of Romulus, whom they believed to be the son of Mars, they dedicated the first month to Mars, and called it March. The next month, April, is named not from any god, but from the word for opening, because the buds generally open in this month. The third month is called May, in honor of Maia the mother of Mercury. The fourth is called June, from Juno. The rest to December used to be named according to their number. The fifth and sixth, however, got the names of July and August from men to whom divine honors were decreed; while the others, from September to December, continued to be named from their number. January, again, is named from Janus, and February from the rites of the Luperci called Februæ. Must we say that you worship the god Mars in the month of March? But that is the month in which you hold the feast you call Bema with great pomp. But if you think it allowable to observe the month of March without thinking of Mars, why do you try to bring in the name of Saturn in connection with the rest of the seventh day enjoined in Scripture, merely because the Gentiles call the day Saturday? The Scripture name for the day is Sabbath, which means rest. Your scoff is as unreasonable as it is profane." CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XVIII (Augustine)

"2. There are other things, however, which are different in different places and countries: e.g., some fast on Saturday, others do not; some partake daily of the body and blood of Christ, others receive it on stated days: in some places no day passes without the sacrifice being offered; in others it is only on Saturday and the Lord's day, or it may be only on the Lord's day. In regard to these and all other variable observances which may be met anywhere, one is at liberty to comply with them or not as he chooses; and there is no better rule for the wise and serious Christian in this matter, than to conform to the practice which he finds prevailing in the Church to which it may be his lot to come. For such a custom, if it is clearly not contrary to the faith nor to sound morality, is to be held as a thing indifferent, and ought to be observed for the sake of fellowship with those among whom we live." CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 54 (St. Augustine)

" I, indeed, communicate four times a week, on the Lord's day, on Wednesday, on Friday, and on the Sabbath," CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 93 (St. Basil)

Romans 14
Easy-to-Read Version
Don’t Criticize Others
14 Be willing to accept those who still have doubts about what believers can do. And don’t argue with them about their different ideas. 2 Some people believe they can eat any kind of food,[a] but those who have doubts eat only vegetables. 3 Those who know they can eat any kind of food must not feel that they are better than those who eat only vegetables. And those who eat only vegetables must not decide that those who eat all foods are wrong. God has accepted them. 4 You cannot judge the servants of someone else. Their own master decides if they are doing right or wrong. And the Lord’s servants will be right, because the Lord is able to make them right.

5 Some people might believe that one day is more important than another. And others might believe that every day is the same. Everyone should be sure about their beliefs in their own mind. 6 Those who think one day is more important than other days are doing that for the Lord. And those who eat all kinds of food are doing that for the Lord. Yes, they give thanks to God for that food. And those who refuse to eat some foods do that for the Lord. They also give thanks to God.

7 We don’t live or die just for ourselves. 8 If we live, we are living for the Lord. And if we die, we are dying for the Lord. So living or dying, we belong to the Lord. 9 That is why Christ died and rose from death to live again—so that he could be Lord over those who have died and those who are living.

10 So why do you judge your brother or sister in Christ? Or why do you think that you are better than they are? We will all stand before God, and he will judge us all. 11 Yes, the Scriptures say,

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘Everyone will bow before me;
everyone will say that I am God.’”

12 So each of us will have to explain to God about the things we do.

Don’t Cause Others to Sin
13 So we should stop judging each other. Let’s decide not to do anything that will cause a problem for a brother or sister or hurt their faith. 14 I know that there is no food that is wrong to eat. The Lord Jesus is the one who convinced me of that. But if someone believes that something is wrong, then it is wrong for that person.

15 If you hurt the faith of your brother or sister because of something you eat, you are not really following the way of love. Don’t destroy anyone’s faith by eating something they think is wrong. Christ died for them. 16 Don’t allow what is good for you to become something they say is evil. 17 In God’s kingdom, what we eat and drink is not important. Here is what is important: a right way of life, peace, and joy—all from the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever serves Christ by living this way is pleasing God, and they will be accepted by others.

19 So let’s try as hard as we can to do what will bring peace. Let’s do whatever will help each other grow stronger in faith. 20 Don’t let the eating of food destroy the work of God. All food is right to eat, but it is wrong for anyone to eat something that hurts the faith of another person. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else that hurts the faith of your brother or sister.

22 You should keep your beliefs about these things a secret between yourself and God. It is a blessing to be able to do what you think is right without feeling guilty. 23 But anyone who eats something without being sure it is right is doing wrong. That is because they did not believe it was right. And if you do anything that you believe is not right, it is sin.
 
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Is it that we won't know for sure til we cross that bridge?

Could be.

Just letting Mr LGW know we agree that Sunday is not the ultimate Biblical sabbath, but might be ordained in some way. Probably I should have said 'as annihilationism is to soteriology'.
 
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Tone

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Either, therefore, it was after the close of the seventh day that they had assembled — namely, in the beginning of the night which followed, and which belonged to the Lord's day, or the first day of the week — and in this case the apostle, before proceeding to break bread with them, as is done in the sacrament of the body of Christ, continued his discourse until midnight, and also, after celebrating the sacrament, continued still speaking again to those who were assembled, being much pressed for time in order that he might set out at dawn upon the Lord's day

I think this is more in line with the historical context.
 
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BobRyan

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"Say to the Israelites" NOT all mankind "You (Israel) must observe MY SABBATHS."

for all eternity after the cross, in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

You omitted part of the verse. Why?

I do that because some people try to change Is 66:23 into "every day" so I leave out the "from New Moon to New Moon" as the "other shoe" dropping, because it proves this is two cycles not one "daily".

and as Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for mankind" Mark 2:27


The day of the new moon was a rest day.

True and not mentioned in Genesis nor in Lev 23 unlike the case of the Sabbath. Still as you say it is a month cycle for rest and worship just as the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is a week cycle. Two cycles... not one called "daily". And they are both for "all mankind" after the cross for all eternity in the New Earth.

At the time of the New Earth there will be TWO creation events to remember. One in Genesis 1 and the other in Rev 21. So then TWO cycles of rest and worship for "All mankind" at that time not just one weekly one.

No wonder you omit the mention of the new moon, day of rest.

Nice to see agreement on something.

out of curiosity - are you on the same topic as this post or thread??
 
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BobRyan

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Just letting Mr LGW know we agree that Sunday is not the ultimate Biblical sabbath, but might be ordained in some way. Probably I should have said 'as annihilationism is to soteriology'.

I think the question for this thread is about Sunday as "The Lord's Day"... whether it is or it is not (according to the Bible of course)
 
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BobRyan

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If this is the case why does Paul say "...that no collections be made when I come?"

Something doesn't jive with using this to support Sunday church day.

The thing is, is I'm not using it to support anything.

The saving up -- was being done "alone" each one "By himself at home" at the first of the week.

This would have been an extremely backhanded way to say "and by that ... I really mean... let each of you gather together for worship on the first day of each week because that is the Lord's Day and we keep in as a memorial of Christ's resurrection".

Instead of that .. it is still limited to the term "week day 1" and still not assigned a title such as "Lord's day" as in "Week day 1 is the Lord's day".
 
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I have a serious problem with Gentiles attempting to obey the law.

Hmm "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 is something gentile Christians should be ignoring in your POV??

For those of us who choose to be under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-44 and Heb 8:6-12 "The law is written on the heart".
 
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