WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY

[Root of Jesse]

CLAIMS THAT PROTESTANTS DELETED BOOKS FROM THE BIBLE?

Protestants didn't delete any of the books from the bible. They just assigned a different status to some of the books. The Old Testament books they disagree with are called by Catholics deuterocanonical—the secondary canon—and by Protestants apocryphal, not part of the canon. To Catholics they're as theologically valid as anything else; to Protestants, they're supposedly valid for instruction and whatnot, but ‘inferior’ in authority to the primary canon. Yet many Bibles aimed at Protestant audiences include the apocrypha, so they're hardly deleted.

As for the criterion of discrimination: the ‘Old Testament’ is basically the Hebrew Bible, the Tanakh; but when Christians first developed an official canon, Jews didn't have one—the ‘official canon’ concept was kind of novel. When Jews did get around to settling on a canon, they considered roughly the same set of books, but accepted only ones written in Hebrew. The ‘Catholic’ canon also includes some scriptures from Jewish diaspora communities originally composed in other languages (generally or maybe universally Greek, the scholarly lingua franca of the Roman Empire). Protestants excluded the ‘Old Testament’ texts that weren't included by the Jews (so, disregarding compilation and translation choices, the standard Protestant OT is exactly the same material as the Tanakh).

So Protestants did not remove any books from the Bible at all. At the time of the Reformation, Protestants recognized as canonical books of the Bible the 39 Hebrew books recognized by the Jews and called by Christians the Old Testament, and the 27 Greek books universally accepted by Christians as the New Testament.
In dispute were 12 books or parts of books written in Greek and referred to by Protestants as the Apocrypha, because their origins were “hidden”, that is, unknown.

The fundamental difference is that the books of the Apocrypha is that there not in the Hebrew Bible. The books of the Apocrypha only exist in Greek; there are no Hebrew texts of these books. Obviously they do not belong to the Old Testament, but also, neither do they belong to the New Testament.

Hope this helps

It is very easy to say Protestants this and Protestants that and for the reply to be 'well not all protestants...' That's because, other than proclaiming and acknowledging that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, all Protestants agree on very little.
So I will put it a different way, based on your article. Catholics formulated the canon of Scripture, and it included the Deuterocanonical books. The Reformationists decided some to include them as "Apocrypha", which means, shortly,
biblical or related writings not forming part of the accepted canon of Scripture. Wiki says
"The word apocrypha, like many other words, has undergone a major change in meaning throughout the centuries. Concerning these ancient books, the word apocrypha originally meant a text too sacred and secret to be in everyone's hands. Christians today say that apocrypha are works, usually written, of unknown authorship or of doubtful origin.
Catholics agree with the meaning of "apocrypha". but not what books belong in that category. Also from Wiki: "Deuterocanonical is a term coined in 1566 by the theologian Sixtus of Siena, who had converted to Catholicism from Judaism, to describe scriptural texts considered canonical by the Catholic Church, but which recognition was considered "secondary". For Sixtus, this term included portions of both Old and New Testaments (Sixtus considers the final chapter of the Gospel of Mark as 'deuterocanonical'); and he also applies the term to the Book of Esther from the canon of the Hebrew Bible. The term was then taken up by other writers to apply specifically to those books of the Old Testament which had been recognised as canonical by the Councils of Rome (AD 382) of Hippo (AD 393), Carthage (AD 397 and AD 419), Council of Florence (AD 1442) and Council of Trent (AD 1546), but which were not in the Hebrew canon.

So the term was coined during the time of the Reformation. Prior to that, they are, simply, canonical. What I am curious about, regarding the Canon of Scripture of Protestants, why would you rely on the Jewish definition of the canon, which actually came after the Catholic definition?

I realize that's another topic, but these claims that Catholics changed Scripture are patently false. We did no such thing. We canonized Scripture. Others changed it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No sir. It says "As commonly printed in Roman Catholic Catechisms. The problem is, the link you provided is to the one Catechism of the Catholic Church, which shows the entirety of Exodus 20:2-18, and the beginning of each commandment from Deuteronomy. You may not have noticed the '...'
but it is a misrepresentation of what the Catechism actually says in the image you posted.

There is no problem dear friend. As I posted everything. As posted earlier my comments were directed to the Catechism. I noticed your avoiding my questions. Do you keep God's 4th commandment according to the scriptures?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It is very easy to say Protestants this and Protestants that and for the reply to be 'well not all protestants...' That's because, other than proclaiming and acknowledging that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, all Protestants agree on very little.
So I will put it a different way, based on your article. Catholics formulated the canon of Scripture, and it included the Deuterocanonical books. The Reformationists decided some to include them as "Apocrypha", which means, shortly,
biblical or related writings not forming part of the accepted canon of Scripture. Wiki says
"The word apocrypha, like many other words, has undergone a major change in meaning throughout the centuries. Concerning these ancient books, the word apocrypha originally meant a text too sacred and secret to be in everyone's hands. Christians today say that apocrypha are works, usually written, of unknown authorship or of doubtful origin.
Catholics agree with the meaning of "apocrypha". but not what books belong in that category. Also from Wiki: "Deuterocanonical is a term coined in 1566 by the theologian Sixtus of Siena, who had converted to Catholicism from Judaism, to describe scriptural texts considered canonical by the Catholic Church, but which recognition was considered "secondary". For Sixtus, this term included portions of both Old and New Testaments (Sixtus considers the final chapter of the Gospel of Mark as 'deuterocanonical'); and he also applies the term to the Book of Esther from the canon of the Hebrew Bible. The term was then taken up by other writers to apply specifically to those books of the Old Testament which had been recognised as canonical by the Councils of Rome (AD 382) of Hippo (AD 393), Carthage (AD 397 and AD 419), Council of Florence (AD 1442) and Council of Trent (AD 1546), but which were not in the Hebrew canon.

So the term was coined during the time of the Reformation. Prior to that, they are, simply, canonical. What I am curious about, regarding the Canon of Scripture of Protestants, why would you rely on the Jewish definition of the canon, which actually came after the Catholic definition?

I realize that's another topic, but these claims that Catholics changed Scripture are patently false. We did no such thing. We canonized Scripture. Others changed it.

Sorry Jesse, but I do not see how this post addresses anything in the post you are quoting from. You did make the claim that Protestants deleted books from the bible. Post # 416 linked however proves this assertion untrue and you have not addressed it here in this post have you accept to seek to change the focus to "Protestants do not agree on anything" I would also make the argument that this claim is also not true. I am sure that many Protestant Church's have many beliefs of scripture in common. Sure there are doctrines that they do not hold in common as well but that does not mean that they do not have some doctrines in common. For me I do not see how the references you have provided from the Catholic Church support your position as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them.

 

[Root of Jesse]

There is no problem dear friend. As I posted everything. As posted earlier my comments were directed to the Catechism. I noticed your avoiding my questions. Do you keep God's 4th commandment according to the scriptures?

I am human, but I do my best to keep all of them. But yes, I honor my father and mother. You haven't read what the Catechism actually says.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Sorry Jesse, but I do not see how this post addresses anything in the post you are quoting from. You did make the claim that Protestants deleted books from the bible. Post # 416 linked however proves this assertion untrue and you have not addressed it here in this post have you accept to seek to change the focus to "Protestants do not agree on anything" I would also make the argument that this claim is also not true. I am sure that many Protestant Church's have many beliefs of scripture in common. Sure there are doctrines that they do not hold in common as well but that does not mean that they do not have some doctrines in common. For me I do not see how the references you have provided from the Catholic Church support your position as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them.

Declaring books listed as canonical as not canonical says that people don't need to listen to them or pay attention. That they might be listed as a footnote is pretty much the same thing. I think its funny when people hurl accusations, like that Catholics changed the Bible, yet, when I look, I see all of the 10 Commandments, But when I look in many Protestant Bibles, I find 6 fewer books, and some of others extracted. That, my friend, is all but deleted.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Sorry Jesse, but I do not see how this post addresses anything in the post you are quoting from. You did make the claim that Protestants deleted books from the bible. Post # 416 linked however proves this assertion untrue and you have not addressed it here in this post have you accept to seek to change the focus to "Protestants do not agree on anything" I would also make the argument that this claim is also not true. I am sure that many Protestant Church's have many beliefs of scripture in common. Sure there are doctrines that they do not hold in common as well but that does not mean that they do not have some doctrines in common. For me I do not see how the references you have provided from the Catholic Church support your position as only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them.

To your last points, there are so many differences in Protestant theology. I have never said anything else than only Gods Word is completely true. Where we disagree is what constitutes Gods Word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am human, but I do my best to keep all of them. But yes, I honor my father and mother. You haven't read what the Catechism actually says.

If you keep God's 4th commandment and do not work and business, buying and selling or shopping from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset then we have no argument dear Jesse. If that were the case you would be one of the only ones I know in all my time as a christian that is Catholic or for that matter any Sunday keeping christian that keeps God's 4th commandment as well as Sunday.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Declaring books listed as canonical as not canonical says that people don't need to listen to them or pay attention. That they might be listed as a footnote is pretty much the same thing. I think its funny when people hurl accusations, like that Catholics changed the Bible, yet, when I look, I see all of the 10 Commandments, But when I look in many Protestant Bibles, I find 6 fewer books, and some of others extracted. That, my friend, is all but deleted.

What is it in the Apocrypha that needs to be listened to that will impact on ones salvation that is not already provided for and accepted in the old and new testament scriptures? Nothing. The origins of the books of the Apocrypha are unknown. They are neither Hebrew old testament of Greek new testament where you going to fit them in the old and new covenants? There is no accusations that the Roman Catholic Church changed God's 4th commandment Sabbath. This was instigated through the Roman Emperor Constantine and continued on through the Church handed down to all Christianity today in fulfillment of Daniel 7:25. The same as the church allowing idols in its buildings which people bow down to in worship, indulgences, praying to the dead saints etc etc..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

To your last points, there are so many differences in Protestant theology. I have never said anything else than only Gods Word is completely true. Where we disagree is what constitutes Gods Word.

God's Word is both the written Word and the spoken Word of God's what other scriptural definition is there? Today as the written Word has already been provided of the spoken Word if today's spoken word does not agree with the written Word it is because it is not from God. We are to test the Spirits according to the scriptures to see if they are from God or not.

 

[HARK!]

If you keep God's 4th commandment and do not work and business, buying and selling or shopping from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset then we have no argument dear Jesse. If that were the case you would be one of the only ones I know in all my time as a christian that is Catholic or for that matter any Sunday keeping christian that keeps God's 4th commandment as well as Sunday.

Actually I kept both for at least a year. I would attend my Messianic congregation on the Shabbat; and I would attend The church I had been going to for years, on the following day. That was an all day event too, morning Bible study, then morning service, then usually lunch at the Pastors house, then evening service. I sort of miss his style. His sermons are most often, reading through a chapter, with commentary. He's a smart guy; but there's so much we disagree on.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Actually I kept both for at least a year. I would attend my Messianic congregation on the Shabbat; and I would attend The church I had been going to for years, on the following day. That was an all day event too, morning Bible study, then morning service, then usually lunch at the Pastors house, then evening service. I sort of miss his style. His sermons are most often, reading through a chapter, with commentary. He's a smart guy; but there's so much we disagree on.

Thanks HARK! I think perhaps then you and Jesse are the only ones I know who keep God's 4th commandment and Sunday at the same time.

God bless

 

[HARK!]

Thanks HARK! I think perhaps then you and Jesse are the only ones I know who keep God's 4th commandment and Sunday at the same time.

God bless

That church had a Wednesday evening service too. I was always there; but I would go there after work. Any day is a good day to share scripture and fellowship in YHWH's name; but that's not a substitute for honoring his Shabbat.

 

[Root of Jesse]

If you keep God's 4th commandment and do not work and business, buying and selling or shopping from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset then we have no argument dear Jesse. If that were the case you would be one of the only ones I know in all my time as a christian that is Catholic or for that matter any Sunday keeping christian that keeps God's 4th commandment as well as Sunday.

The fourth commandment is to honor your father and your mother.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What is it in the Apocrypha that needs to be listened to that will impact on ones salvation that is not already provided for and accepted in the old and new testament scriptures? Nothing. The origins of the books of the Apocrypha are unknown. They are neither Hebrew old testament of Greek new testament where you going to fit them in the old and new covenants? There is no accusations that the Roman Catholic Church changed God's 4th commandment Sabbath. This was instigated through the Roman Emperor Constantine and continued on through the Church handed down to all Christianity today in fulfillment of Daniel 7:25. The same as the church allowing idols in its buildings which people bow down to in worship, indulgences, praying to the dead saints etc etc..

The sacrament of reconciliation, the feast of Hannukah, among others. What does it matter that they aren't Hebrew?
The change the Reformation made was in renumbering the Commandments. It was not instigated by Constantine, or anyone else, but Luther, Swingli, etc. There was no apostasy in the Church. We do not, and never have, allowed idols in church buildings. Idols are things we worship, and we do not worship any statues. We honor what the statues in our churches represent. They are a photograph, a remembrance. Nothing more. We do not pray to the dead, we pray to the living. Etc. Etc. ad nauseaum.

 

[Root of Jesse]

God's Word is both the written Word and the spoken Word of God's what other scriptural definition is there? Today as the written Word has already been provided of the spoken Word if today's spoken word does not agree with the written Word it is because it is not from God. We are to test the Spirits according to the scriptures to see if they are from God or not.

We honor God's Word, both written and spoken, and we honor those who speak it. If they are against Scripture, we deny them. It is upon you to show how they are against Scripture, and that we still honor their speaking.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That church had a Wednesday evening service too. I was always there; but I would go there after work. Any day is a good day to share scripture and fellowship in YHWH's name; but that's not a substitute for honoring his Shabbat.

This is good, but Catholics have Mass every day. Sunday is, of course, most holy, but the other days are holy as well. This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it.

 

[HARK!]

Sunday is, of course, most holy

I can't find that in scripture.

"Examining the New Testament from cover to cover, critically, we find the sabbath referred to sixty-one times. We find too, that the Saviour invariably selected the Sabbath (Saturday) to teach in the synagogues and work miracles. The four Gospels refer to the Sabbath fifty-one times. In one instance , the Redeemer refers to Himself as 'Lord of the Sabbath' as mentioned by Matthew and Luke, but, during the whole record of His life, while invaribly keeping and utilizing the day, (Saturday), He never once hinted at a desire to change it. "- The Catholic Mirror Nov. 25 1893. J. Cardinal Gibbons.

The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, pg. 111, said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (The Roman Catholic Church) never sanctify.

The Catholic Mirror (a publication by Cardinal Gibbons) Sept. 2, 1893- "...the Redeemer, during His mortal life, never kept any other day than Saturday."

The Catholic Mirror Sept. 9, 1893- "Nor can we imagine any one foolhardy enough to question the identity of Saturday with the Sabbath or seventh day, seeing that the people of Israel have been keeping the Saturday from the giving of the Law, A.M., 2514 to A.D. 1893 (to the present day)..."

The Catholic Mirror Sept.9, 1893- "We deem it necessary to be perfectly clear on this point....The Bible- the Old Testament- confirmed by the living tradition of weekly practice for 3383 years by the chosen people of God, teaches, then, with absolute certainty, that God had, Himself, named the day "to be kept holy to Him"- that the day was Saturday, and that any violation of that command was punishable with death."

Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine Third Edition"1). Question: Which is the Sabbath day? "Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day. 2). "Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"Answer. "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The fourth commandment is to honor your father and your mother.

Let me ask you again so there is no confusion in regards to the distraction of numbering. I know you told me you already agree that God's seventh day Sabbath commandment is one of God's 10 commandments right? Do you keep Gods "seventh day" sabbath commandment, to keep the "seventh day" as a Holy day of rest according to the scriptures from Friday Sunset to Saturday sunset to rest and do no business, or domestic work, buying or selling or shopping etc?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The sacrament of reconciliation, the feast of Hannukah, among others.

So that is a salvational issue how? - It isn't

What does it matter that they aren't Hebrew?

The Apocrypha books have no origin and do not fit into the old testament scriptures and they are not new testament scripture. So where you going to put them?

The change the Reformation made was in renumbering the Commandments.

How does that matter if all the content of EXODUS 20:1-17 are present? - It doesn't this is simply a distraction.

It was not instigated by Constantine, or anyone else, but Luther, Swingli, etc. There was no apostasy in the Church.

We will have to agree to disagree. History records the reformation being over the church departing from scripture to follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God.

We do not, and never have, allowed idols in church buildings. Idols are things we worship, and we do not worship any statues. We honor what the statues in our churches represent. They are a photograph, a remembrance. Nothing more. We do not pray to the dead, we pray to the living. Etc. Etc. ad nauseaum.

The commandment whatever number you want to call it says this...

EXODUS 20:4-6 [4], You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5], You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; [6], And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

I am happy to post photos just let me know. There is no scripture stating we are to pray to Mary or the dead Saints, indulgences etc etc...

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We honor God's Word, both written and spoken, and we honor those who speak it. If they are against Scripture, we deny them. It is upon you to show how they are against Scripture, and that we still honor their speaking.

We will have to agree to disagree dear Jesse. I believe many things have been shown here that are against scripture from the Mother church even in this OP in relation to the claims of "Sunday" being "the Lords day" (which is what we should be getting back to BTW). You are free to believe as you wish. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. JESUS warns us against following man-made traditions and teachings that may lead us to break God's commandments in MATTHEW 15:3-9. How do you read these scriptures? For me I believe Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of men that is not biblical hence the OP to challenge anyone to prove from scripture that Sunday is "the Lords day". Seems I am still waiting.