Why the Latin Mass Won’t Save the Catholic Church

[Michie]

Above: “Sick man at the walls of a Catholic monastery,” by Fyodor Bronnikov (1874).

“If a person can build a fence around himself, he is bound to do it.” – Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

One day, I just got in my beat-up old Volvo and drove out of San Francisco. I took with me: my clothes, some personal belongings, and my battered and bruised body. My soul wasn’t in much better shape, but I had long forgotten that it was even there. After years of trying to kill myself, I suddenly wanted to live. I wasn’t sure why. I didn’t believe in an afterlife; I didn’t even believe in heaven, but I acknowledged that there was a hell – after I saw it. I longed for death, because I thought it would mark the cessation of my lifelong suffering. But that’s not what it was for me. My passing from this world could only ensure that my suffering would continue – forever. That was my idea of hell. That I would go on living like I was.

In order to live, I first had to regain a modicum of my health. Which took months. Even then, after turning only thirty, I was an old man. The years had taken their toll on me. I grew up a bullied and lonely boy. When I was a child, I would have traded anything for a friend. By the time I reached my late-teens, I did. But then, I didn’t know the price I’d eventually have to pay. Even though I had been betrayed by one of the few men to take an interest in me, I was still dangerously naive and overly trusting. But I longed for that which had been denied to me – a community; especially a community of men where I could feel safe and protected.

Continued below.
Why the Latin Mass Won’t Save the Catholic Church

 

[Bob Crowley]

I've never been to a Latin mass. I have thought about going, mainly just out of curiosity as I became Catholic long after Vatican II, when the local vernacular become the lingua fraca of the local church.

But I've never for one moment believed the Latin mass was going to save the church, nor do I think some form of liturgy fad or a return to pre-Vatican II values would make any difference.

For myself I think the Church (talking about the whole church) is far too divided. My old Protestant pastor, while not joining the Catholic Church himself (although I have a vague memory where he said to me late in the day that he had started going to RCIA, and therefore might join the Catholic Church "if I live long enough". He had cancer, which killed him only a few months later), once said to me in relation to Marian apparitions that he thought "There's been a lot of them", "They line up with Scripture" and that "I think they're a judgement on a divided church."

More than anything else, this makes it very easy for the world to sneak into the chancery.

For me to go to a Latin mass, it would really just be a novelty. Not for one minute do I think a return to the Latin mass would renew the church.

As for the writer of the article, I think it's also up to him to take a stand, and stop church hopping.

 

[thecolorsblend]

.

 

[zippy2006]

I pretty much agree with you. My view is that people who see the TLM as the end all, be all don't seem to realize that TLM parishes thrive because they attract the more devout. If the TLM somehow became the predominant form of the Mass again, the Church would have the same basic problems with liturgical abuses that were rampant for the first half of the twentieth century. The Church wouldn't necessarily improve; the TLM would simply suffer.

This type of Catholic seems to be mistaking a symptom for a cure. And as you say, I don't think it's that simple.

That's right, and there are liturgically conservative Novus Ordo parishes that thrive just as much if not more than the TLM parishes.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Wow when I saw the title I was prepared to really talk about the Latin mass. Kind of funny how something that was common place compared to the Orthodox Divine Liturgies, has become really rare! Back 10-15 years ago, on a different Christian discussion board I talked about maybe taking in a Latin mass with an online Catholic friend and my wife at the time ;because, there were a few churches that had them in the Northern California "Bay Area" (from San Francisco, the East Bay to San Jose). So I was proposing a meetup, that I've done a few times, with online friends of previous message boards, but this time a Latin mass one.

The article didn't have a lot to with the old mass that I can see except maybe to imply the Catholic church has a lot of problems especially Social wars issues with some of its liberal laity that the some kind of quick fix aint going to change that. That is a little ironic message, when study or remember what Vatican II was all about, especially the liturgical reforms.

As a part time Protestant seminary student in 96-98, who spent a lot of time at a Catholic Seminary (because my extension campus paid rent and its was a good location, nice facilities etc.) I thought a lot of stuff of Vatican II was very smart, made Catholicism very friendly, accessible, good public relations etc. But of course, a few years later, in getting into Orthodoxy I could understand people's complaints about Vatican II, and its Liturgical reforms making the Church feel to "Protestant". And began to understand why some people might be into the old Latin mass, especially if they were from the older generation that grew up with it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

As for the writer of the article, I think it's also up to him to take a stand, and stop church hopping.

He's been through hell. I'm amazed he hasn't offed himself. I'm amazed he still has any faith. I follow him because of the pain he has survived.

As to the Latin mass, I don't for a minute think that it alone is that valuable. but it does draw a subset of Catholics who tend to be more serious. Try a Latin mass and talk with the people. Might be a good homily as well. It's not the Latin per se that makes it special.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Sciambra's a very interesting laymen in the Catholic community, in my opinion, and I really feel for him and how tragic his experience has been over the years. From what I understand he's been leaning towards Orthodoxy for quite some time because of what he's been through with the Catholic Church. I hate to say it though but the grass isn't greener, I hope he's not too awfully disappointed and I wish he would be heard by the people he's tried to reach out to. I know Cardinal Burke has sat down with him but I think he's the only one.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Sciambra's a very interesting laymen in the Catholic community, in my opinion, and I really feel for him and how tragic his experience has been over the years. From what I understand he's been leaning towards Orthodoxy for quite some time because of what he's been through with the Catholic Church. I hate to say it though but the grass isn't greener, I hope he's not too awfully disappointed and I wish he would be heard by the people he's tried to reach out to. I know Cardinal Burke has sat down with him but I think he's the only one.

I do read Sciambra but the tone of his writing is very depressing. He has indeed been flirting with The Orthodox Church for a while. He will eventually learn that they too posses the same drama as the Catholic Church. Man is always going to fail us and let us down. What he sees happening in the Catholic Church is happening all around us both secular and religious .


The world is passing away . Our only hope is Christ.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I do read Sciambra but the tone of his writing is very depressing. He has indeed been flirting with The Orthodox Church for a while. He will eventually learn that they too posses the same drama as the Catholic Church. Man is always going to fail us and let us down. What he sees happening in the Catholic Church is happening all around us both secular and religious .


The world is passing away . Our only hope is Christ.

Amen bro. I'm glad I didn't convert because of some priest or bishop somewhere, because Lord knows if I had I would probably be in shambles right now. Thankfully the faith remains the faith no matter how hard some renegade clergy try to make it something else (here's looking at you, Germany).

 

[Gnarwhal]

successful abusers are not always sadistic and cruel; sometimes they relent, and are even capable of great kindness. For a time, they will leave you alone.

Oof, this is a hard truth that I think we've all seen more of in the last few years. Especially in the wake of the bishops rapid acquiescence to COVID shutdowns and then their gradual reopening months later.

I think a number of bishops viewed the TLM as a Ritalin prescription for a group of unruly and troublesome Catholics who refused to behave.

It does feel that way, and I don't even attend a TLM. But the way there peppered about here and there definitely feels like a special pen for these rowdy sheep. It's just enough to keep traditional Catholics from perhaps affecting any kind of real change.

In my mind, a Church that permitted the beauty of the TLM to exist simultaneously with the profanation of a “pride” Mass, will eventually destroy itself.

This is where Sciambra and I part ways. Do I agree that a pride Mass and so many other of the irreverent masses are abhorrent? Yeah. Do I think they'll destroy the whole Church? No. I think they'll ultimately destroy themselves, and the traditional ways will be left standing.

To me it's just obvious, the advocates of the irreverent and the blasphemous are already aging out. The generation that originally brought this on in the 60s and 70s has mostly died out and the generation that was young then and that has carried the torch ever since is on their way.

When I go to Mass with my fiancée and her kids, she likes to take them to the 5pm youth Mass at her parish, a Mass complete with a praise band of gray haired boomers strumming guitars and banging piano keys and carrying terribly off-key notes. They don't actually like this Mass, but it's the only one that works for them. The only people in the whole building who seem to enjoy this force feeding of bootleg Peter, Paul & Mary are the same age as the people playing it.

I don't say that to knock all boomers, my parents are boomers and I love them to death. I just say it because time and again it seems the boomer generation is the only one who thinks these kinds of Masses are good. Anyone younger, and anyone older, at least prefer an ordinary form Mass with traditional elements like chant or polyphony, and other accoutrements of Catholicism like incense, use of other Eucharistic prayers other than #2 (I'd love to hear the Roman Canon), and people not wearing shorts or yoga pants.

I know some boomers actually share these sentiments with me, the generation isn't all the same just like none of the others are monoliths either. And to circle back to my point, as their influence on the Church diminishes, a time which I think is getting closer and closer, then I think it gets more and more likely that we'll see things tip back towards the traditional expression of the faith more broadly.

But I don't think it'll extinguish the Church altogether like Sciambra's saying.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Sciambra's a very interesting laymen in the Catholic community, in my opinion, and I really feel for him and how tragic his experience has been over the years. From what I understand he's been leaning towards Orthodoxy for quite some time because of what he's been through with the Catholic Church. I hate to say it though but the grass isn't greener, I hope he's not too awfully disappointed and I wish he would be heard by the people he's tried to reach out to. I know Cardinal Burke has sat down with him but I think he's the only one.

It's a terrible thing to escape hell and go to the doors of the Church only to be told by priests that hell is just a fine place to go back to. Here is a man who painfully discovered truths about sexuality and then discovered that many of our own priests were totally clueless about those truths. I am amazed he has maintained being Catholic up to now. Given what he has gone through I don't know if I would have lasted as long. We have a lot of sicko priests, not just the few active molesters of children, but the many more who are compromised or just fine with sexual deviancy for others. They aren't teaching truth because they don't have it themselves. One of the oversized fruits of the dissent against Humanae Vitae.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I know some boomers actually share these sentiments with me, the generation isn't all the same just like none of the others are monoliths either.

We are not a monolith and many do share your sentiments.

And to circle back to my point, as their influence on the Church diminishes, a time which I think is getting closer and closer, then I think it gets more and more likely that we'll see things tip back towards the traditional expression of the faith more broadly.

It will be a painful period of loss of institutional power, with parishes and schools closing and other ministries collapsing. Of hospitals and universities escaping control of the bishops. People of actual faith will have to step up big time financially to save what they can. Our goal from inside the barque of Peter must be to save who we can of those shipwrecked and treading water before they drown.

But I don't think it'll extinguish the Church altogether like Sciambra's saying.

It will not extinguish the Church altogether but it will do and is doing huge damage. Tolerance of such abuses gives the message that such abuses really are OK. Tolerance of the Bidens and Pelosis gives the message that having their positions is just fine. We can be good Catholics with one or maybe two feet in hell. Not only is that destructive of souls, but the credibility of the teaching office is damaged. We lose some good Catholics now because of it and will lose more until our teachers teach and believe the faith. Only some do now.

 

[concretecamper]

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi