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Why the King James Bible is Still the Best and Most Accurate

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by kahn888, Nov 23, 2021.

  1. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    People who lose their faith never had it to begin with. Most who walk away do so because they are surrounded by people like the Pharisees, or persuaded by sin. Giving the Gospel to these people in whatever way is practical and appropriate, with brotherly love, is the way to build faith, not through rigid, dogmatic adherence to the letter of long-dead translators.

    Let me ask you two questions. 1] How long--a thousand years, two thousand years?--does time have to pass before the KJV is outdated? If it is never outdated, then you are worshipping a stack of paper, good neighbor. 2] Is there any modern translation which you think faithfully renders the Gospel?

    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    (II Corinthians 3:6)
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
  2. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    From Is Your Modern Translation Corrupt? | Christian Research Institute :

    Is your modern translation corrupt?

    That is, there is no family of manuscripts, or even a single manuscript, that reads exactly as the King James New Testament. The translators used an “eclectic” methodology, recognizing that no single manuscript should be elevated to the status of the “standard,” but that each manuscript contained scribal errors of various kinds, and that the true and original text was best sought in the plurality of texts.

    Modern Greek texts, such as the Nestle-Aland 27th edition and the United Bible Societies 4th edition, which underlie modern English translations and are used most often in college and seminary-level Greek classes, are based not upon just a few texts, but upon all Greek manuscripts. Unlike the TR, which was derived from only one stream of the large Byzantine family of texts, the modern texts draw from the entire range of Greek texts. The modern Greek texts also provide extensive textual notes indicating what readings are to be found in which manuscripts. This is important for the person who wants to check the choices made by editors and translators, as well as for the person concerned about alleged “secrecy” on the part of modern textual scholars. Modern Greek texts are open in allowing the reader to examine all the relevant manuscript readings, leading to honesty and accountability.

    When manuscripts differ from each other, one needs a methodology to determine which reading to include in the Greek text and in any translation derived from that Greek text. Given the fact that no two handwritten Greek manuscripts read exactly the same, everyone who engages in creating printed editions of the Greek text or translations into modern languages must struggle with textual diversity. Erasmus did so, the KJV translators did so, and modern scholars engage in the same task. The King James Version is just as much a result of this process of study and examination as any modern text, and those who assert it is somehow above such “human” activities are simply ignoring the facts of history. If KJV Only advocates wish to say that all the decisions made by Erasmus, Stephanus, Beza, and the KJV translators were perfect, they need to explain why. Simply assuming this won’t do.


    We are still waiting!


    18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
    (Mark 8:18)


    Adding words to the Bible, or taking away a few, leaves the Gospel intact. It is enough as it is. If thou shalt not understand, it is thine own failing, not the teaching.


    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    (II Timothy 4:3)


    The Bible in its many forms contains sound doctrine, but itching ears will cause many to stray. We should scratch that itch with relevant, lucid translations of the Gospel.


    9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
    11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
    (Isaiah 28:9–12)


    Many have been given the Gospel, but few have understood it. Those who have understood it are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breast. Those who cling to the supposed inerrancy of one slightly different translation over another are still on milk.


    2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
    3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
    4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
    5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
    7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
    8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
    9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    (Mark 4:2–5, 7–9)

    There are many more Gospels and other books than the ones chosen by 5th century theologians to comprise the Bible as we know it, but including them would be superfluous. They are available for those who wish to read them, but abundance of knowledge should not be mistaken for wisdom. That kind of knowledge is the seed which had no depth of earth. Therefore, most, if not all, Bibles today contain all anyone needs and more, in order to bring about the Kingdom within them.


    29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
    (Matthew 11:29, 30)


    Adherence the letter is the yoke of bondage. Taking His yoke is being free from the letter. I say these things because many Christians are oppressed by the Law, living in Old Testament mindsets, not knowing Christ; knowing the letter of the Gospel and not its Truth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
  3. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him Great is thy faithfulness Supporter

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    Good. :)

    Yes, we do.
    Are you implying that no Christian was able to grow or trust God's word before the KJV came along? Maybe you'd better tell that to Abraham, Moses etc.

    It doesn't matter what you believe; what are the facts?
    How many people who became Christians, later fell away and never returned to the faith owned, and read, only a modern translation of the Bible?
    Did they fall away because they owned a modern translation of the Bible, had no access to the KJV and lacked teaching etc? I doubt that very much. I'm pretty certain that if someone ever became a Christian, was given an NIV and 18 months later was no longer a Christian it would not have been because they were given an NIV. There are many reasons why someone may give up on their Christian faith; they face tragedy and are hurt that God didn't protect them, they get involved with an unsuitable church, they don't see how their new faith is relevant to their lives, they are spiritually vulnerable and get lured into a cult, or receive unhelpful teaching - the list goes on.
    I would be interested to know if anyone has been led to Christ, given a KJV, told to read it and thought "I don't understand/don't have time for this", put it to one side and later left the faith.

    But I suspect that no one has these sort of statistics.

    Of course they don't.
    There is ONE faith, ONE Gospel, ONE Triune God, ONE Saviour etc etc.
    I've been a Christian for 40 years - the faith, and Gospel, have not changed, or shifted, in that time.

    GOD has the final authority.
    God's word - which is the Bible; the NIV, NEB, KJV etc - is our holy book, the source of our doctrine, reveals God to us etc etc. We have no "supplementary book", like the Divine Principle, Science and health, the book of Mormon, the Koran, etc.

    Regarding the Gospel, doctrine etc; yes, they have.

    Jesus is THE Word of God; the only perfect Word of God.
    The idea that there HAS to be a perfect Bible is yours alone; God was saving, blessing, teaching and healing people through his word long before the KJV was made. His word id eternal; the KJV isn't.

    He hasn't.
    Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Isaiah, Jesus etc etc appear in ALL bibles. No one ever read a modern translation of the Bible and learned that Fred the train driver drove people out of Egypt, or that there were no plagues because that would have been too upsetting, of that Jonah did not disobey God because no prophet would do that.

    Show me one major Christian teaching, Bible story or Bible character that does not appear in modern "babble Bibles".
    There aren't any.
    You are going to meet, and have fellowship with, non KJV readers in heaven. I can almost guarantee that when you do, you won't care what translation they chose to read while on earth.
     
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  4. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    It is common for people to miss the big picture, getting lost in minutia and forsaking the forest for the trees. Stories must be read in their entirety, with the whole arc in mind. The Way is not a formula; if it were, it would not be the Way. A formulaic Jesus is the Jesus of the Pharisees, who clung to the Law for salvation.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This information is not from the link I sent you. Is it something else you are copying and pasting from another website? Did you watch Bridge to Babylon? It sounds like you did not make it in watching it all the way through.

    Also, no KJB Only Proponent I know says that the previous English bibles to the 1611 were perfect. No KJB Only Proponent I know says that the KJB translators were perfect, but they were men of God who believed the Scriptures unlike some liberals who worked in Modern scholarship who did not even believe the events in Genesis or the story of Noah, or Jonah, etc..

    Westcott and Hort are the father’s of Modern Textual Criticism (for they created the Critical Text that has led to most all Modern Bibles today), and their beliefs are heretical. One noteworthy belief that is problematic (not heretical in all cases) is that there is no divinely inspired Word of God that exists perfectly today. This just coincidentally happens to be the same belief you and other Modern Translation Proponents hold to today. For according to the Modern Bible crowd: God failed to keep His Word as stated in Psalms 12:6-7. But I don’t believe God failed to keep His words in Psalms 12:6-7 (Which is a truth that is altered in Modern Bibles).

    Luke 12:1
    “In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.”

    You said at the end of this post that adherence to the letter is the yoke of bondage. So you cannot adhere to the letter of this verse you quote (i.e. Mark 8:18), or you would be under the yoke of bondage yourself. In other words, you cannot even quote the Bible when it is convenient for you if you reject that very standard in other places. That would be hypocritical. Also, if there is no perfect Bible in existence, maybe a scholar will change what a verse you currently favor to say something entirely different a few years and you will bow to their new scholarly interpretation with the priestly craft of knowing the original languages. For if the details of the Bible are not important, then you can keep changing whatever verse you like to make the Bible say whatever you want it to say as long as the general stories are somewhat intact, right?

    The gospel is not all there is according to the Bible. For what makes you think that the gospel alone is the only important thing in the Bible? Yes, it is one of the central truths in the Bible, but it is not the only one. There is also a call of the gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. This “call of the gospel” is not the same thing as the gospel mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

    2 Timothy 4:3 is not referring exclusively to the gospel alone. It is referring to other doctrines or teachings from the Word of God. So this verse actually refutes your line of thinking because doctrine has been changed in Modern Bibles. You can look at changed doctrine when comparing the KJB vs. Modern Bibles here. You can look at the commands that have been changed when comparing the KJB vs. Modern Bibles here.

    2 Timothy 4:2-5 says,
    “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.”

    According to the passage above in 2 Timothy 4: We are to preach the Word. For there will come a time when they (believers) will not endure sound doctrine but they will have turned the truth into fables (myths). This is exactly what the critics of Modern Bibles have done.

    Some of the modern translators of today:
    Robert Bratcher - Good News Bible - Disbelieved the first three chapters of Genesis
    Edgar Goodspeed - Revised Standard Version - Disbelieved in the deity of Christ and disbelieved the miracles of Christ.

    The fathers of the Critical Text (Westcott and Hort’s beliefs):

    Westcott on Creation:
    “No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history---I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did---yet they disclose to us a Gospel. So it is probably elsewhere.”

    Westcott, Arthur, Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, (New York, 1903), Volume 2, P.69

    Hort on Eden:
    “I am inclined to think that no such state as “Eden” (I mean the popular notion) ever existed, and that Adam’s fall in no degree differed from the fall of each of his descendants, as Coleridge justly argues.

    Hort, Arthur Fenton, Life and letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, (New York, 1896) Vol. 1, P.78

    Hort on Hell:
    “Certainly in my case it proceeds from no personal dread; when I have been living most godlessly, I have never been able to frighten myself with visions of a distant future, even while I ‘held’ the doctrine.”

    Hort, Arthur Fenton, Life and letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, (New York, 1896), Vol. 1, p. 122

    Westcott on Heaven:
    (1) “No doubt the language of the Rubric is unguarded, but it saves us from the error of connecting the Presence of Christ’s glorified humanity with place; ‘heaven is a state and not a place.’”

    (2) “Yet the unseen is the largest part of life. Heaven lies about us now in infancy alone; and by swift, silent pauses for thought, for recollection, for aspiration, we cannot only keep fresh the influence of that diviner atmosphere, but breathe it more habitually.”

    (3) “We may reasonably hope, by patient, resolute, faithful, united endeavour to find heaven about us here, the glory of our earthly life.”

    Westcott, Arthur, Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, (New York, 1903), Volume 2
    (1) Page 49
    (2) Page 253
    (3) page 394​

    I may reply to the rest of what you wrote later (Lord willing).
    But so far I am greatly disturbed by people’s approach to God’s Word in these last days. There is no perfect Bible for them. This to me is horrifying. I would be unbeliever if I believed as you did. For if God cannot settle His Word perfectly, or at the very least (close to perfection), then why should I trust what He says? So the Modern Bible Proponent’s position is illogical and not one that I admire but I find extremely distasteful.

    In any event, may God bless you in the mean time (even if we disagree on God’s Holy Word).
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
  6. pescador

    pescador Wise old man Supporter

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    This was referring to the OT law, not to the NT. I agree with the rest of your post re the KJV.
     
  7. pescador

    pescador Wise old man Supporter

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    Great post!
     
  8. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    I am open to watching the entire 3 hour video, but I would rather speak about its key points, which you may be bringing up here. If that is the case, the video should not be very enlightening because of entrenched and fanatical positions. Heresy works both ways, in the direction of order (to funnel the Biblical manuscripts through doctrinal and denominational lens, which modern translations are attempting to stear away from), and the direction of chaos (the traditional sense of heresy, like someone claiming to be Jesus), and people's attempts to make a god out of the KJB is pure heresy in the former sense.

    Okay, so here you are saying that modern translators are not "men of God," in your opinion, and that the KJB translators were. Even if you could prove this, there is a logical fallacy here. You really haven't addressed the argument that modern translators are making, but attacking their personal character. This is argumentum ad hominem tu quoque (to the man). Prove their intentions are to corrupt the Bible--you have attempted this but fallen short in my view, and the view of many.

    6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
    (Psalms 12:6, 7)


    God's Word, if it has an abiding place in one's heart, is tried as silver in a furnace, purified. God shall keep his words in you and preserve them from generation to generation. God (the God-inspired Psalmist) was talking about His Word. His Word cannot be reduced to a perfect set of words no more than the Roman Emperor can be reduced to a perfectly-crafted marble statue. The statue signifies the Emperor and his imperial dominion, just as the Bible signifies the Truth of the Word of God. The two are not the same. If you are interested in learning more about semiotics, the study of signs (symbolism), here is a 3-minute video:
    So, Westcott and Hort were not heritical, they were logical. The moment you write down the Gospel, God's Word, the Truth, whatever you want to call it, it ceases to be the Truth, but acts as a guidepost to the Truth. The Bible, in my view, is the source document for the Christian faith, not a God in itself, and should not be confused with the Word of God, Christ, the Truth, the Way and the Life.

    The point here is that there can never be a "standard" work of the Bible for two reasons:
    1] Our source material has been enriched over time with more manuscript discovery. If you think this is a problem, then why did the King James translators not simply stick with one manuscript? It is because the "best" Bible is one that uses a plurality of sources to elucidate a fuller image of the Truth behind the written words. You have not proven the errancy of any text, simply by maligning their proponents. In any event, a plurality of Bible scholars disagrees with you.
    2] The English language is constantly evolving. The KJB was and is a beautiful and thought-provoking document; the more time passes, however, its message is obscured by the language. This is the overwhelmingly obvious point which many ignore, to the dismay of many. Case in point--try ordering a cheeseburger in Ye Olde English and see what reaction you get.

    To your first point, that I cannot adhere to the letter of Jesus when he warns of Pharasaical hypocrisy: Adherence to the letter is advised against by Jesus, but adherence to the Truth behind the letter is advisable requisite for lasting salvation:

    And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
    (Exodus 16:15)

    This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
    (John 6:58)


    I may quote the Bible freely, as you do, and not understand a word of it. It is this sort of knowledge without understanding which breeds trivial disputes among KJB acolytes, and which the New Testament expressly warns against:

    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    (II Corinthians 3:6)

    This is not strictly the law of the Old Testament. We are under the burden of the Law in this day, until we are freed by grace, not free to sin (or "miss the mark" and break the perfect Law, which we are bound to do without grace), but free not to sin, as Paul said.

    But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
    (James 1:22–26)

    Being doers of the word, and not hearers, we give our understanding to a few ancient Biblical "authorities". Being doers and hearers, we learn more about the complex history of Biblical scholarship, coming to a fuller exposition of the Bible, and translate it faithfully through our constantly-evolving language for new hearers to hear, and hopefully do.

    And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. ...

    For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: ...


    By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
    (Hebrews 7:15, 16, 18–20, 22)

    The law makes nothing perfect. Rigid adherence to a man-made Law of Translation as professed by KJB-Only acolytes does nothing to make a perfect Bible. There is no such thing, but there is a perfect law, and there is a perfect atonement with God as explained in a variety of translations.

    Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; ...

    Neither give ye heed to endless and trivial disputes between scholars. The end of the commandment is "faith unfeigned," not faith in one translation of the Bible, but faith in the Living Word as expressed by it. "The law is good, if a man use it lawfully;" a man should focus on using the Gospel wisely, not parting hairs and endlessly comparing translations, in so doing falling into the letter of the law and not its fulfillment:

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; ...

    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. ...

    God was not manifest in a Book, but the flesh of Christ Jesus, who was testified about by faithful witnesses. The communication of this testimony cannot be reduced to simplistic ordinances of translation by the uninformed.

    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; ...

    Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. ...

    God hath created to be received the faithful translation of the Gospel and the Biblical narrative to the world's people, in every language.

    For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. ...

    Do not make your treasure on Earth, where robbers can steal it. Do not put your faith in any book, but in Christ, nor in any translation, but by the spirit come to know that which is true.

    O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
    (I Timothy 1:4–8; 2:5; 3:16; 4:1, 3; 6:7, 20)


    And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: ...

    (Philippians 3:9)


    Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. ...

    Though we read different translations, we are walking by the same rule, and minding the same thing.

    For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: ...

    Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
    (Philippians 3:16, 20; 4:8)

    There is virtue in condescending from our pride, to minister unto those who have yet to hear the Bible told them in words they can understand. There is neither shame nor error in that.

    For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    (Ephesians 2:14–18)

    There is an artificial wall held up when we prize one translation to the exclusion of all others. Ultimately, it is not the law that gives life, nor the exact letter of one imaginary "standard" translation, but Truth that gives Life.

    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. ...

    Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    (Galatians 3:10, 19)


    As Christians, we are not bound by human laws, but by the Law of God until our mediator has come. If we are yet under the works of the law, holding our minds to its letter, and not its promise, then the seed of Christ has not taken depth of earth. Likewise, if we are bound to the letter of a "standard" translation, we are slaves to its letter, not able to live it, "putting it into our own words," (as the Living Word gives the written word its life and meaning) so to speak.

    But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
    (I Corinthians 6:6–8)

    Before unbelievers we goeth to law over translating the works comprising the Bible, not realized that it is ultimately harmful to the Gospel's spread, the work of Christ in the world. Let us instead suffer ourselves, and our pride.

    Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? ...

    For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    (Romans 2:26, 28, 29)


    Here Paul explains that even Gentiles can abide by a law of which they know not. Being free of it is another thing, however it goes to show how the language which is used to express the Truth cannot be mistaken for the Truth itself.

    Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
    (John 7:24)


    Judge not by appearance of corruption, but judge righteously, instead looking for the Truth and opportunity of salvation and conversion to Christ which is readily available in modern renderings of Biblical truth.

    And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
    (Luke 16:15)


    Let us not esteem the works of dead theologians, but honor their service to the Message of Christ, using their work as a stepping stone to a greater understanding of the Bible in appropriate and practical language.

    For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
    (Malachi 3:6)


    The Lord changeth not, but the Bible as we have known it has changed, not because the letters of the manuscripts were somehow corrupted, but because the language through which we read it has changed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
  9. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    I didn't say the Gospel was all their is. We have been saying the Bible is not all there is, nor is the KJB all there is in terms of translating it. The Gospel, the Good News of salvation through grace and faith in Christ Jesus, is all there is after we have discovered our own powerlessness over our relationship with the Law of God, as defined by Moses and which lives in infinitely complex ways in each of us. Because we can never be perfect in the Law, we need a mediator. That is the Gospel, which is beyond Law. What there is beyond that is detail, detail which no modern translation has ever attempted to obscure or corrupt (again, we have refuted several of your claims claiming so).

    This is the Gospel:

    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    (II Corinthians 3:6)

    For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    (Ephesians 2:14–18)

    ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ...

    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    (John 3:16, 19)


    ...and what I am saying is that we can fool ourselves into believing we are free, yet being rigid adherents to the letter and not the spirit, which alone giveth life.

    You are simply interpreting these differences to serve your narrative. As I have said in past examples, regarding Revelation 13:1 and II Peter, we must read in context and not isolate particular sentences to gather meaning.

    Let's take your "Corruption #1" from the list you linked: Here are excerpts from various translations:

    KJV says: ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
    (Matthew 28:19, 20)

    Phillips Modern English says: You, then, are to go and make disciples of all the nations and baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you.


    Young's Literal says: having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them--to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,)

    Your argument that "we cannot make disciples, only God can," is totally meaningless. Jesus never instructed his disciples to usurp God's authority, but to teach the nations, making disciples through instruction in his Word. Besides, the most literal translation available (Young's) says "disciple all the nations." This does nothing to refute or somehow undercut the KJB, but is rather telling of how translations can vary in detail and not substance, like you or I can put on a different shirt, yet remain the same person. I will remain open to debate, but everything you have thus provided me runs with the same fallacious reasoning.

    Reading in context gives light where pure isolation of phrases may confuse. Your assertion (which is not your own but that of funamentalist cranks), that Satan is corrupting young souls through modern translations, would be horrifying... if anyone were to believe it.

    Two points to what you just said here:

    1] Attacking the translator's personal beliefs is a logical fallacy and evades the facts. If they made mistakes, then illustrate and prove them as mistakes. You have not done so.

    2] The belief that Genesis may be allegory is not heretical. It is what thinking men ponder when confronted with stories that seem supernatural to what we know of as life. This way of reading the Bible does not limit the message of the Bible, but rather expands its meaning. It is the way God would want us to read it, if we are able.

    3] If you disagree with point 2, which, whether you like it or not, is the way many people read the Bible (and are saved through faith), then revert to point 1.

    I will give you this: there is a chance of seeing what was never there, but the most common evil is to limit the God-inspired word by imposing human-derived shackles of literalism. Yes, reading the Bible literally is a human notion. The Bible is not read any one particular way, but for all its nuance, height, depth and breadth. Human language can repeat only an infinitesimal part of what exists. Therefore, this way of reading is not heresy, but the way the authors of the Bible (and infinite God) really meant it to be read.

    God's Word is never settled:

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    (John 1:1–3)

    The Bible was made. The Word, Christ was not made, but existed with the father since before the beginning. There is no perfect Bible, because the Bible is written of God-inspired, yet human hands. God did not create English, but he gave us the breath of life through which we are to proclaim His Truth through our tools of language and story. The Truth therein lives not in the written word, nor even in the story itself, but in our understanding and our living it.

    We do not "disagree on God's Holy Word." (Jesus Christ) We only disagree on how it is to be understood and proclaimed to the world, which Christ bade us to do. We cannot do that effectively if we continue to believe that there is one "standard" Bible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
  10. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    (II Corinthians 3:6)

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    (Matthew 5:18)


    The Law lives is an oppression all those who have yet to be saved through grace. My point was that adhering to the letter of the Bible, and not the meaning, is keeping that grace from being established within us, and leaves us to the sharp teeth of the Law. This Law is greater than that of Moses, as even the Gentiles are said to be under its hand:

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    (Romans 2:13, 14)

    And we cannot be doers of the law unless we are also saved from it, for any doing of the law without grace through Christ's mediation is incomplete, and brings condemnation by the law. The law did not die with Moses.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is simply not true according to the Bible.

    Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

    Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

    Hebrews 3:12-14
    Hebrews 4:11
    Hebrews 6:4-9
    Hebrews 10:26-30
    Hebrews 12:15
    1 Timothy 1:18-20
    1 Timothy 4:1-7
    Galatians 5:2-4
    2 Peter 2:20-22
    2 Peter 3:17
    Luke 8:11-15
    1 Corinthians 10:12
    2 Thessalonians 2:3

    Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

    Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

    Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
    Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
    The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
    Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
    Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
    Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
    Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
    Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
    Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
    Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

    And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

    The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
    Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
    The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
    Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
    Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
    Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
    Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
    Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
    Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
    The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
    (James 5:19-20)

    Believers do not have salvation forced upon them their whole lives.

    We are told:

    “...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

    "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

    "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​


    We are told to:

    1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

    2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

    3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

    Then again, if the details of the Bible is not important to you, and it’s just about the general stories remaining intact and you make it just about the gospel alone and nothing else, then I suppose the above points in Scripture should not matter to you. For if we take the Modern Scholarship Liberal View on God’s Word: We really do not have a settled perfect Word of God and thus we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say.

    2 Corinthians 3:6 is written in view of the 613 Laws of Moses in the Old Testament (that only applied to the Israelite and has ended with Christ’s death) and it is not in reference to the New Testament Laws of Christ. Believers do not have to look to the Old Laws in the Old Testament primarily to obey God. They do not have to keep the Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, etc.; But that does not mean there are no laws under the New Covenant. Paul himself said he was not without the laws of God but he is under the Law to Christ.

    “To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.” (1 Corinthians 9:21).

    Meaning, we follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. For even the apostle Paul said that what he has written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord (See: 1 Corinthians 14:37). But if we are to take your liberal no perfect Bible approach to God’s Word, then we can just disregard what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:37.

    But what if I am right, and the King James Bible is the pure Word of God? This would mean that it would never be outdated and it would only require the reader to study to show themselves approved unto God like believers today. For it’s still English. But the Modern Scholarship position is even worse. They appeal to the original languages (Which makes it impossible to understand). But yet, the Modern Scholar believes no perfect Bible exists today. They have close to the originals but they do not have the exact perfect Word of God. They are liberal with God’s Word in what it says. They are only interested in general truth. I believe you take a liberal approach to God’s Word but you use the details of certain verses out of context in a literal way to suit your liberal approach. This to me is not being consistent.
    So the question is simply not relevant. Is the Word of God outdated if we found the original manuscripts that were perfect? Surely not.

    Here we go again. The false claim of… “we worship the Bible because we simply believe God preserved His words for us today.” Think of the Bible like a love letter a woman receives from her fiancé in a far away country. She may revere and cherish the letter. There is nothing wrong in doing that because they are the expressed thoughts of her fiancé; But if she started to take that love letter out on dinner dates and talked with the letter, and tried to get affectionate with the letter as if it was actually her fiancé, then we would have a problem. I know of no KJB Only believer who does such a thing. They regard God as a spirit being, and they worship Him in spirit and in truth. They may hold His words in high regard and cherish and love his words because they are the expressed mind of God, but they do not think God is literally inked words on paper within the Bible. That would be silly to even suggest that. Sure, there may be some odd cult like people out there who may hold to such a view, but we are not talking about a few rare crackpots here.

    As for your question: Again, there are other essential core truths believers must accept besides the gospel. Believers must in time believe in the Trinity, and they must live holy lives according to the commands given to them by Jesus and His followers. There are other truths they should learn to accept, as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am not actually interested in going back and forth with you on this topic forever because you take a liberal approach to God’s Word (i.e. Bible agnosticism). I was hoping you would keep to your word and watch the video so we could discuss why you disagreed with it. But I am not expecting it to change your mind. The video for me was an encouragement in my faith in God’s Word. It shows me just how different we are in our approach to God’s Word. I seek to honor what God says, but you approach the Bible in a wrong way in that you have no perfect Bible and so you have to determine what words are true or false in a Bible version you are reading. For you: It’s all about what caters to a general truth or general truths you are looking for, and it does not include detailed instructions that helps us to guide our walk with God in properly loving Him and others. But ironically you will use a specific detailed verse (i.e. the letter that kills) to support your liberal approach to God’s Word.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In John 12:48: Jesus in part says if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day.

    But if His words have been changed or corrupted by Modern Bibles, and one don’t care to have His true pure words, then how can one receive His words?

    They short answer is… they cannot receive His words. Thus… those words will judge them on the last day. I don’t want to be in that kind of position. Maybe folks here want to take that kind of risk. Maybe you want to run off and do you own thing. I don’t know. I want to live my life to exactly what our Lord Jesus said for real and not in some fantasy general truth of how I would like things to be.
     
  14. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    The counter-argument in a nutshell was perfectly stated by Strong in Him:

    I would, if I were you, read what other scholars say about the texts, and their history. You seem to think that all modern texts are tainted by men who lived over 100 years ago. The truth is that modern translators today, just as the King James translators did, are using sources comprising thousands of manuscript texts, with 99% consistency to the King James texts. The differences are paltry and superfluous. After all, scribes made thousands of trivial alterations, mere window dressing of no importance to the narrative.

    But you seem to care about trivialities: it is the mark of someone who has not understood.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
  15. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    I want to speak with you about what you think. The examples you have taken from the video, which we have discussed, have already been rendered trivial to me and to the majority of Biblical scholars. We are not reading two different Bibles, but you put your faith in knowledge as human language, whereas I seek faith the Truth which the words express. The Bible cannot be perfect because, when trials come, our faith is not in words but in Him. Only He is perfect.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am not interested in discussing the video more unless you watch it like you said you were going to do. But now you appear to be breaking your word.
     
  17. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    Very well, let's talk about it, but bit by bit. Which point do you want to discuss? I believe I have already addressed some key points in earlier posts.

    I think the point about Hort's beliefs is neither here nor there, because what you say is "corruption" is not corruption, but the natural result of dutiful Bliblical scholarship.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    If anyone wants to know the truth, and or to be challenged in regards to their faith in the Critical Text (i.e. the source of where all Modern Bibles comes from), then they should watch the entirety of this video.

    [​IMG]

    Watch Bridge to Babylon | Prime Video
     
  19. BeingThere

    BeingThere Member

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    We have, over the last 4 or 5 thread pages, discussed what you think is Biblical corruption, but which is nothing of the sort. The arguments you have made are taken directly from this video and other internet sources, and we have refuted the best of them. Read the last few posts. Anyhow, if you have no recourse but to outsource your Biblical authority to others, then how shaky can your argument be? Faith in a "perfect Bible" is evidence of not understanding the meaning behind it, and no perfect Bible exists.
     
  20. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him Great is thy faithfulness Supporter

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    This is an admirable sentiment - but unfortunately, Bible Highlighter has already staked his faith, and I believe even his life, on the KJV being perfect.
    I don't think that there is any way that he will respond to logical discussion and examination of the facts; that is his starting point and he is not going to change his position.

    Sad.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2022
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