why the contempt for western culture?

[FireDragon76]

I know some Orthodox from eastern lands have contempt for western culture, but it makes no sense why some Orthodox from western lands would buy into this rhetoric. It's the equivalent of not honoring your parents in the name of God, calling it korban.

I am referring specifically to this discussion I had, and a comment I made: supreme court sounds skeptical on baker's case

I don't think it's right some Orthodox show contempt for the legal norms of the United States and other western countries, and yet benefit from the heritage of western culture, of freedom of religion (including freedom from my neighbor's religion), which made their quest towards Orthodoxy possible in the first place.

At one time as an Orthodox Christian I did have contempt for many things "western", but the more seriously I delved into the real way to be Orthodox, the more I realized how pharisaical and unjust it really was, and that I needed to have a more considerate attitude for where I had come from, and appreciate the good gifts that my ancestors had given me in creating a free society where church and state were separate. And I started rejecting the notions that some Eastern/Russian sympathizers had that somehow to be Orthodox was to be anti-western and to adopt values contrary to western norms.

 

[gzt]

Westerners overcompensating on conversion.

 

[All4Christ]

I know some Orthodox from eastern lands have contempt for western culture, but it makes no sense why some Orthodox from western lands would buy into this rhetoric. It's the equivalent of not honoring your parents in the name of God, calling it korban.

I am referring specifically to this discussion I had, and a comment I made: supreme court sounds skeptical on baker's case

I don't think it's right some Orthodox show contempt for the legal norms of the United States and other western countries, and yet benefit from the heritage of western culture, of freedom of religion (including freedom from my neighbor's religion), which made their quest towards Orthodoxy possible in the first place.

At one time as an Orthodox Christian I did have contempt for many things "western", but the more seriously I delved into the real way to be Orthodox, the more I realized how pharisaical and unjust it really was, and that I needed to have a more considerate attitude for where I had come from, and appreciate the good gifts that my ancestors had given me in creating a free society where church and state were separate. And I started rejecting the notions that some Eastern/Russian sympathizers had that somehow to be Orthodox was to be anti-western and to adopt values contrary to western norms.

Is that unique to some Orthodox? I know of many - such as some Evangelicals at my previous church - who were even more so against separating religious moral values from the state. They wanted to enforce all their moral values through the federal government.

Personally, I lean toward putting more power into the hands of the states and going away from some of the big government (federal)...but that’s just me Some things should be regulated federally, such as defense and defending the Constitution, but some things don’t belong in the hands of the federal government.

 

[FireDragon76]

You are right, AfC... it really is not unique to Orthodox, now that you made me think of it, since many evangelicals also show contempt for western cultural norms. I did not realize that at the time that interaction happened.

I do think it's something spiritually toxic that needs to be addressed by Orthodox Christians, otherwise Orthodox will simply reiterate the tired polemics of American and British Fundamentalism. What's particularly noteworthy is that this attitude comes from the conservative Reformed movement in terms of its historical provenance, and it does seem most common among those Orthodox who come from those backgrounds.

The older Russian-Americans and Greek Americans who were Orthodox had a live-and-let live attitude with the rest of society and were not interested in trying to stir up trouble with their neighbors over religious disagreements.

 

[FenderTL5]

I can only speak for myself.
I find the 'baker' issue in question to be one of particular nuance.
Things that are expressly forbidden of Christian/Church practice may or may not necessarily need to be prohibited by secular law(s).

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well that makes more sense to me. In my parish, no one cares to the degree of obsession or wrong mindset about such things. They are concerned about the country they live in, but in no way do I see a contempt for the west. (You'd think they'd go back to Greece if they felt that way.) Nor do I see it in the Romanians, Ukrainians, etc.

The only place in Orthodoxy I see it is a small subset of over-zealous converts who I don't really interact with.

It IS a huge thing with quite a slice of Protestants.

But I almost get blindsided when friends or family bring it up to me because of their religious thoughts. I have to shift gears and remember where they come from and why in order to talk to them about it. I suspect they think I'm far too unconcerned, no longer wishing to obsess over such things.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I dunno that there is contempt for all things Western from the Orthodox POV, especially since every year we thank God for our freedoms and prosperity often. most times the Assembly of Bishops get together, there is some statement affirming the good of America and the West.

while I don't think we should actively pursue people who believe in things like gay "marriage" or abortion, we should not be silent either.

and we should embrace what came from the Christian West, especially from the first millennium.

 

[prodromos]

I read through your discussion with Ignatius the Kiwi and I have no clue where you get this supposed contempt for Western culture. What I do pick up on is your contempt for what you think is Orthodoxy.

 

[FireDragon76]

I read through your discussion with Ignatius the Kiwi and I have no clue where you get this supposed contempt for Western culture. What I do pick up on is your contempt for what you think is Orthodoxy.

He seems to suggest a narrative of decline, much as many conservative evangelicals do. He said at one point he'ld rather have Christians killing each in a non-pluralist, pre-modern civilization than the godless atheism in Russia persecuting Christian, implying that western secularism caused all that. I just think its not right to blame western modernism for the horrors of Communism. I think that Orthodox Christians must acknowledge some role in Russia's problems too.

The 30 years war was a tragedy in many ways, the largest war up until WWI, and it was started due to religion. It was one of the reasons for the rise of Enlightenment skepticism of religion, and Christians, at least western Christians, must endure that shame. But at the same time, that does not mean we were wrong for repenting from our bloodthirsty hatred of our estranged brothers and seeking to live in peace with our neighbor through establishing laws that respect pluralism of ideas and protect human dignity. The ultimate reason for pluralism is because we should respect our neighbor and not kill them when we disagree with them. Human dignity comes first, the way I see it, it's the basis for pluralism and tolerance. But he seems to think human dignity is only defined by his particular religion, rather than what we can all agree on, which is how it works in a pluralist society.

 

[FireDragon76]

I think I'm through expressing contempt for Orthodoxy. I don't agree with it but I think I am starting to understand that I merely had a bad experience. Interacting with some of the people here like A4C and Anastasia and a few others convinces me that many Orthodox do indeed feel a sense of social responsibility to the wider society with whom they may differ, just as I do. And that their religious beliefs do not involve a rejection of pluralism, civility, and respect for the dignity of all persons, in the public square.

Though we do not share the same moral theology of sin, we agree on what being decent to one another looks like. And that is very significant to share in common, and is earning my respect for their faith. Many western Christians here do not display this kind of personal integrity. If Orthodox Christian faith takes any part in that, then I suppose I owe them a personal apology if I have offended them.

 

[prodromos]

He seems to suggest a narrative of decline, much as many conservative evangelicals do. He said at one point he'ld rather have Christians killing each in a non-pluralist, pre-modern civilization than the godless atheism in Russia persecuting Christian, implying that western secularism caused all that. I just think its not right to blame western modernism for the horrors of Communism. I think that Orthodox Christians must acknowledge some role in Russia's problems too.

Perhaps it would have been better for you to ask if that was indeed what @Ignatius the Kiwi was implying rather than jumping to conclusions. You are also woefully ignorant of the many Orthodox statements regarding why God permitted His Church to suffer under communism. The Church is very much aware of her responsibility..

The 30 years war was a tragedy in many ways, the largest war up until WWI, and it was started due to religion. It was one of the reasons for the rise of Enlightenment skepticism of religion, and Christians, at least western Christians, must endure that shame. But at the same time, that does not mean we were wrong for repenting from our bloodthirsty hatred of our estranged brothers and seeking to live in peace with our neighbor through establishing laws that respect pluralism of ideas and protect human dignity. The ultimate reason for pluralism is because we should respect our neighbor and not kill them when we disagree with them. Human dignity comes first, the way I see it, it's the basis for pluralism and tolerance.

Modern secular society celebrates sin. You are welcome to embrace that but I will not.

 

[Lukaris]

I think trepidation is a better term to use towards western tendencies. For ex. there was much rapport between the Anglican Churches and the Orthodox a century ago in America but St. Raphael ( Hawaweeny) soon discerned
deep concerns:

Bishop Raphael Hawaweeny on the Anglicans and Orthodox Baptism

Now look at the heresies that are emerging within the Anglicans:

Outrage After Minister Prays for Prince George to be Gay

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think I'm through expressing contempt for Orthodoxy. I don't agree with it but I think I am starting to understand that I merely had a bad experience. Interacting with some of the people here like A4C and Anastasia and a few others convinces me that many Orthodox do indeed feel a sense of social responsibility to the wider society with whom they may differ, just as I do. And that their religious beliefs do not involve a rejection of pluralism, civility, and respect for the dignity of all persons, in the public square.

Though we do not share the same moral theology of sin, we agree on what being decent to one another looks like. And that is very significant to share in common, and is earning my respect for their faith. Many western Christians here do not display this kind of personal integrity. If Orthodox Christian faith takes any part in that, then I suppose I owe them a personal apology if I have offended them.

well of course we feel that we should interact with the wider community and all human life has Divine dignity regardless of personal faith. Orthodox institutions like FOCUS, IOCC, the Emmaus House etc minister to all kinds of folks. heck, Metropolitan Jonah was the only one during the March for life a few years back who mentioned that Christians have a responsibility to mothers who aborted babies to heal them too.

plus we have amazing witnesses like Sts John the merciful and Mary of Paris who were known for their charity to whoever needed their help.

 

[FireDragon76]

I am aware of Maria of Paris and I have two books about her. I venetrated her when I was attending Orthodox services and at home. She is indeed a saint worthy of remembrance and there is alot I can identify in her with my own tradition. I wish there were more icons of her because I'd like to have one.

Like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, she was a prophetic voice and teacher in dark times. She is a potential bridge between our two traditions, especially her emphasis on hospitality, serving people indiscriminately, but having a preference for those who are vulnerable.

It actually bothered me at one time that I was attending a Lutheran church because people baptized Lutherans probably killed Mother Maria, and it really upset me for a while, I went through a period of feeling of tension and even maybe anger or guilt, then I was just very sad one day and cried alot, which is something I don't usually do.

Frankly, the brutality of Germans bothered me alot as a Lutheran up until a few months ago, but I have learned that I can't uncritically accept the whole tradition, but after talking to my pastor, I realized neither does my own church really, we repudiate the sort of religion that lead to Nazism.

A very healing experience I had was a year ago at Christmas, the pastor talked about the Madonna of Stalingrad (which is in my avatar pic at the moment, in statue form), made by Kurt Reuber on Christmas Eve, who was a war objector and pastor who was pressed into service into the German army as a medic. He created a religious image of Mary and the baby Jesus in Stalingrad that soldiers gathered around in devotion, with the words "Light, Life, Love". I think that helped me to understand that is was a dark period and many people of good will suffered. Reuber died in a Russian prison before the end of the war.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

He seems to suggest a narrative of decline, much as many conservative evangelicals do. He said at one point he'ld rather have Christians killing each in a non-pluralist, pre-modern civilization than the godless atheism in Russia persecuting Christian, implying that western secularism caused all that. I just think its not right to blame western modernism for the horrors of Communism. I think that Orthodox Christians must acknowledge some role in Russia's problems too.

The 30 years war was a tragedy in many ways, the largest war up until WWI, and it was started due to religion. It was one of the reasons for the rise of Enlightenment skepticism of religion, and Christians, at least western Christians, must endure that shame. But at the same time, that does not mean we were wrong for repenting from our bloodthirsty hatred of our estranged brothers and seeking to live in peace with our neighbor through establishing laws that respect pluralism of ideas and protect human dignity. The ultimate reason for pluralism is because we should respect our neighbor and not kill them when we disagree with them. Human dignity comes first, the way I see it, it's the basis for pluralism and tolerance. But he seems to think human dignity is only defined by his particular religion, rather than what we can all agree on, which is how it works in a pluralist society.

I would say human dignity is defined by God, what little of it we have is not due to nature but due to God's image being imparted in us. I am not convinced of secular and atheistic arguments for human dignity because there isn't really any dignity in that naturalist understanding of things. If you think secularism offers an equally valid account of human dignity I would like to hear it. From whence does our dignity come from if not from God?

As to warfare. I am not saying that we should kill all unbelievers (just what kind of monster do you think I am?). What I am saying is I prefer the ideology behind the Christian wars than I do behind the wars of secularism today. The Thirty years war was better than ww1 because it not only killed less people in a longer time frame, it was also a war for ideological purpose rather than mere territorial expansion. It was a war fought for the soul of Europe. I also find Christianity to be a stronger force than the current secular malaise which advocates no real morality or ideal to strive for except for tolerance of everything which is dull and immoral.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

x

 

[prodromos]

This is the statement to be proven. I might remind that one of the arguments used is to suggest that there were no truly faithful teachers and guides and hence why God abandoned his people, he abandoned the simple instead of raising up a simple one (like Joseph Smith) to continue on the message. This is a large problem for Mormonism, that your God shows his lack of care to those who loved him by not correcting them and abandoning them to abominations. There is still no reason given for this.

How on earth did this end up getting posted here? You were responding to a post in a completely different thread?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

How on earth did this end up getting posted here? You were responding to a post in a completely different thread?

Ah, yes. I should look more carefully before I post.

 

[gzt]

Anyway, there's a great book, Orthodox Constructions of the West, which might make sense of some of the reactioary polemic. It's edited by George Demacopoulos and Aristotle Papanikolaou, it has some great essays in it.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

It is logically impossible to have morality without God. The West is the most tolerant of sodomy and pedophilia. If one doesn't acknowledge the moral standard, I don't see how you can have a moral society. The US constitution is just a piece of paper.