Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[ICONO'CLAST]

I would hazard a guess that you don't speak in tongues. You must first believe.

Haha I post in tongues....rondo' mo shiki, komo boco roto.
You must first believe....see how easy that was?
CL.....we have a complete word from God. We win in Jesus. What did He forget to tell us?
Did he leave anything out?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Publicly mocking God?
You're brave.

, not at all. God did not have this lady make silly rhyming sounds. It was her flesh, not God.
Did you write down the interpretation? You can add that to your bible if God sent a word. Revelation says all liars go to second death. All who add to the words go to second death.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I agree edification is needed but if so your response is void of it. Do you care to re-phrase in a spirit of edification rather than insults?

Damian
Truth matters.if a mormon missionary stands in your church, and reads Joseph Smith's testimony, do you welcome it as edification?
Do you wait silently until you feel a burning in your bosom as they say?
Or do you properly identify it as a falsehood?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I've read books which tell of Christians speaking in tongues in a service and newcomers to the church recognising the language that was spoken and accepting the message from God. Or Christians in the congregation recognising the language of the tongue.
I doubt that God would call the gift that he gives, meaningless.

It did not happen. The person wrote the book to make money.
I has a woman tell me the angel moroni appeared in her living room to tell her the book of Mormon was true. She was sincere. I told her that before telling her why that was not possible.
Would you have told her it was true?

 

[Dave L]

who said anything about the Pentecostal view? Let's take the biblical view, not superimpose a post-canon reverse translation view. Let's also keep denominational human elements out of it, we don't read the 1st letter to Paul from the Corinthians because clearly, that would have some flawed teachings. So why use misuse in the church today to claim the whole thing is false? Paul's correction to the Corinthians concluded with "do not forbid speaking in tongues" not "you're doing things the wrong way so clearly these gifts have stopped"

The Cornelius event tells us the Holy Spirit "came on all who heard the message" and this was affirmed because "they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God." An apostle is present but he did not lay hands-on anyone, (because he was hesitant that the Holy Spirit was for gentiles). The Holy Spirit came upon non-apostle gentile believers who began to speak in tongues. So is the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the apostles and those who they lay hands on only? according to the Acts, no.

although a digressed practice in the early church tongues did continue beyond the reach of the hands of the apostles. For example, Augustine of Hippo in the 5th century is quoted "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

we can talk about biblical practices and use that to correct what we observe today but the bible does not even implicitly discourage these practices so why is it a conversation?

I covered most of this in the OP. Read it for my reply.

 

[Dave L]

So would you say that the scriptures below are much to do about nothing?
Since you claim it only applied to a few and for a limited time frame.

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

Mark 1:8
I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 1:33
And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Were all Apostles? They were if all had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

Notice the past tense.

 

[Dave L]

Prophecy was one of the hearing gifts and usually spoken in their own language. An apostle writing scripture would hear words and write them. They wouldn't have to SPEAK them before writing them.

Tongues was generally used for perfect prayer and perfect praise. We still pray and sing today, so there is obviously a great use of this gift.

Others besides the Apostles wrote scripture too.

 

[Dave L]

And as I keep saying this is only YOUR INTERPRETATION.

In the Gospels Jesus performed 36 miracles so according to your interpretation that is ALL he did and yet John said.

Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

The bible is a series of snapshots or time lapse photography. You are making the classic mistake of assuming that the bible contains all information - it doesn't, it only contains what God thinks we need and relevant.

My last word
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

But faith comes from hearing the word. You cannot have faith if scripture doesn't say it.

 

[DamianWarS]

Damian
Truth matters.if a mormon missionary stands in your church, and reads Joseph Smith's testimony, do you welcome it as edification?
Do you wait silently until you feel a burning in your bosom as they say?
Or do you properly identify it as a falsehood?

I do it in a way that may build up not tear down.

 

[Dave L]

What verse are you referring to?

“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[Dave L]

To impart what was given him. That was his job as an Apostle as part of establishing churches he had to impart gifts to them so that they can do the work of God more effectively. People started speaking in tongues after they have received the Holy Spirit whether it be by the hands of the Apostles or by the giving of God after the gospel was preached. They did not need an Apostle to lay hands on them to receive it.

This is purely conjecture without scripture support.

 

[Saint Steven]

Were all Apostles? They were if all had the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

Notice the past tense.

Of course it is past tense. He is writing about what happened.

You shot yourself in the foot with this one. Add to the other scriptures I shared from 1Cor.12. What does verse four tell us about WHO distributes the gifts of the Spirit?
Has the Holy Spirit died yet? (nope) Does he still distribute gifts? (yup)

Hebrews 2:2-4
For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

 

[Dave L]

Of course it is past tense. He is writing about what happened.

You shot yourself in the foot with this one. Add to the other scriptures I shared from 1Cor.12. What does verse four tell us about WHO distributes the gifts of the Spirit?
Has the Holy Spirit died yet? (nope) Does he still distribute gifts? (yup)

Hebrews 2:2-4
For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

But I replied asking why Paul needed to visit Rome to give gifts if they were available in other ways? If you take part of the scripture and not the whole, you end up in error.

 

[Saint Steven]

But faith comes from hearing the word. You cannot have faith if scripture doesn't say it.

Nope. Not scripture.

Rhema, not logos. (Rom,10:17) NT Greek below.
Spoken and heard, not written and read. "Hearing" by "an utterance."

hearing
ἀκοὴ (akoē)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 189: Hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor. From akouo; hearing.

by
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

[the] word
ῥήματος (rhēmatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 4487: From rheo; an utterance, ; by implication, a matter or topic; with a negative naught whatever.

of Christ.
Χριστοῦ (Christou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 5547: Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ. From chrio; Anointed One, i.e. The Messiah, an epithet of Jesus.

 

[rockytopva]

Some believe they are blessed praying a rosary bead. Truth matters.

My feelings on the Calvinist church are like George Clark Rankin’s 100 years before me.....

"Grandfather was kind to me and considerate of me, yet he was strict with me. I worked along with him in the field when the weather was agreeable and when it was inclement I helped him in his hatter's shop, for the Civil War was in progress and he had returned at odd times to hatmaking. It was my business in the shop to stretch foxskins and coonskins across a wood-horse and with a knife, made for that purpose, pluck the hair from the fur. I despise the odor of foxskins and coonskins to this good day. He had me to walk two miles every Sunday to Dandridge to Church service and Sunday-school, rain or shine, wet or dry, cold or hot; yet he had fat horses standing in his stable. But he was such a blue-stocking Presbyterian that he never allowed a bridle to go on a horse's head on Sunday. The beasts had to have a day of rest. Old Doctor Minnis was the pastor, and he was the dryest and most interminable preacher I ever heard in my life. He would stand motionless and read his sermons from manuscript for one hour and a half at a time and sometimes longer. Grandfather would sit and never take his eyes off of him, except to glance at me to keep me quiet. It was torture to me." - George Clark Rankin The Life of George Clark Rankin

I don’t pray the rosary, but the image of the cross is something I hold dear.

 

[Dave L]

Nope. Not scripture.

Rhema, not logos. (Rom,10:17) NT Greek below.
Spoken and heard, not written and read. "Hearing" by "an utterance."

hearing
ἀκοὴ (akoē)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 189: Hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor. From akouo; hearing.

by
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

[the] word
ῥήματος (rhēmatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's Greek 4487: From rheo; an utterance, ; by implication, a matter or topic; with a negative naught whatever.

of Christ.
Χριστοῦ (Christou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 5547: Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ. From chrio; Anointed One, i.e. The Messiah, an epithet of Jesus.

You can hear scripture preached and receive faith. Or you can read it and receive faith. But any other form of faith is sinful and misguided originating in the flesh.

 

[rockytopva]

My feelings on the Calvinist church are like George Clark Rankin’s 100 years before me.....

"Grandfather was kind to me and considerate of me, yet he was strict with me. I worked along with him in the field when the weather was agreeable and when it was inclement I helped him in his hatter's shop, for the Civil War was in progress and he had returned at odd times to hatmaking. It was my business in the shop to stretch foxskins and coonskins across a wood-horse and with a knife, made for that purpose, pluck the hair from the fur. I despise the odor of foxskins and coonskins to this good day. He had me to walk two miles every Sunday to Dandridge to Church service and Sunday-school, rain or shine, wet or dry, cold or hot; yet he had fat horses standing in his stable. But he was such a blue-stocking Presbyterian that he never allowed a bridle to go on a horse's head on Sunday. The beasts had to have a day of rest. Old Doctor Minnis was the pastor, and he was the dryest and most interminable preacher I ever heard in my life. He would stand motionless and read his sermons from manuscript for one hour and a half at a time and sometimes longer. Grandfather would sit and never take his eyes off of him, except to glance at me to keep me quiet. It was torture to me." - George Clark Rankin The Life of George Clark Rankin

I don’t pray the rosary, but the image of the cross is something I hold dear.

To repeat the word torture, I also was brought up in a Calvinistic type church and the services were equally torture to me. And to continue the George Clark Rankin story I also gave my heart to Christ in a Wesleyan type revival, and the experience is equally dear to me...

“I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.” - The Life of George Clark Rankin

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

My feelings on the Calvinist church are like George Clark Rankin’s 100 years before me.....

"Grandfather was kind to me and considerate of me, yet he was strict with me. I worked along with him in the field when the weather was agreeable and when it was inclement I helped him in his hatter's shop, for the Civil War was in progress and he had returned at odd times to hatmaking. It was my business in the shop to stretch foxskins and coonskins across a wood-horse and with a knife, made for that purpose, pluck the hair from the fur. I despise the odor of foxskins and coonskins to this good day. He had me to walk two miles every Sunday to Dandridge to Church service and Sunday-school, rain or shine, wet or dry, cold or hot; yet he had fat horses standing in his stable. But he was such a blue-stocking Presbyterian that he never allowed a bridle to go on a horse's head on Sunday. The beasts had to have a day of rest. Old Doctor Minnis was the pastor, and he was the dryest and most interminable preacher I ever heard in my life. He would stand motionless and read his sermons from manuscript for one hour and a half at a time and sometimes longer. Grandfather would sit and never take his eyes off of him, except to glance at me to keep me quiet. It was torture to me." - George Clark Rankin The Life of George Clark Rankin

I don’t pray the rosary, but the image of the cross is something I hold dear.

Someone's recollections of a boring sermon does not change the issue.
Listen to sermonaudio if you want to hear good sermons.

 

[Saint Steven]

But I replied asking why Paul needed to visit Rome to give gifts if they were available in other ways? If you take part of the scripture and not the whole, you end up in error.

It is not I that is ending up in error. I already addressed this with you.

There is no PLURAL in what Paul is saying here. He longs to impart some gift (singular) to make them strong. That they may be MUTUALLY "encouraged by each other’s faith."

This is a reference to a prophetic impartation. Like what Timothy received from the Elders in his church.

Romans 1:11-12
I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12 that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.

1 Timothy 4:14
Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

 

[Strong in Him]

It did not happen. The person wrote the book to make money.

You can believe what you like.
I choose to believe the testimonies of born again Christians. If they are lying, or making false claims to make money; that is between them and God. I'd rather get to heaven having believed something and then find out that it wasn't true, than get to heaven and have God ask me, "why did you doubt the word of fellow Christians, and why did you doubt what I can do?"