Why study of the fathers leads only to Catholicism and why I came Home to RCC

samir

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Good Day, Samir

I have already dealt with the historical errors of the roman church in formulating it's own OT cannon seeing I do not belong to the roman church their name it claim it authority is mere fallacy.

Understood. You reject the Catholic council that gave us the Old and New Testaments because you don't consider it to be a reliable authority. That means you can't use that council as proof that any of the books you accept are scripture and will need to find another authority to verify that each book you accept is scripture and each book you reject is not scripture.

As to the historical and some what inconsistent view of the inclusion of Revelations in the history of the church I will post some information soon.

Looking forward to it.

Can you show me where I can find a German translation or primary source documentation of Luther's bible any version, that does not contain the Book of Revelations in it.

How would that be relevant? According to Wikipedia, Luther's bible contained all 73 books in both testaments despite him not accepting some of those books as scripture. Luther explained why he rejected the book of Revelation in his preface to the book of Revelation in the bible he wrote.
 
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tz620q

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I understand... make no mistake Jerome was a feisty one and had been said he would rather lose a friend then a fight. I think the history is very clear as many point to a "jeroman" canon for the contents of the OT some of that I have provided. Rome was local so it's impact would have impact to Rome alone that is my understanding of how councils work but I could be incorrect. Which council do you find authoritative on this canon issue for you as a member of the roman church?
You are right. The Council at Rome was local and hampered in that the Emperor had called a council at the same time in Constantinople. So most of the Eastern Bishops were in Constantinople and not at the Council in Rome. The canon of the Council of Rome was reaffirmed in 393 at the Council of Hippo (largely influenced by Augustine) and later in 397 at the Council of Carthage. Both of these councils were in Africa and efforts to extend a universal canon to the East did not prove fruitful. But as far as the areas now part of the Catholic Church, that about covers it. I accept this as the official closing of the Catholic canon; but I have had very learned Catholic professors insist that to close the canon would require a doctrinal decree that is binding on all under anathema on breaking it. This did not happen until Trent.

Truthfully if looked at through the larger mirror of the total early church (including the Syriac, Peshitta, Chaldean, Coptic, etc. churches) you see that the canon throughout the entirety of Christianity has never been codified. That is why I agree with you in that this is more a historical argument than a theological one.

I do not see it as a degradation at all instead a tearing of usefulness.

I have no desire to hi-jack this thread, but I have to ask... how reliable do you think his translation was?
That is a very interesting question and one I have thought on a bit. First probably in 380-400 A.D., he had access to Hebrew manuscripts that have long since disappeared. He states that when arriving at a point in the translation of the OT where these Hebrew manuscripts are not the same as the Septuagint (here he denigrates the Theodotion recension in usage by the Church at that time), he tried to stay true to the Hebrew manuscript.

He was charged with mistranslating Genesis 3:15 so that the current translation of
"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."
became what is found in the Douay-Rheims
"I will put enmities between thee [the serpent] and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: She shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."
This led to a lot of medieval art showing Mary with her foot on the serpents head. But it has since been shown that Jerome correctly translated into Latin from the Septuagint version of this text using the Greek he/his pronoun. The Hebrew contains no pronouns and can be read both ways. Later someone changed this in the Vulgate to she/her.

I have always wondered what he "hacked-away" out of the text. should he have sought permissions for that? I would like your take.
I would wonder how capable of translating from Chaldean (an Aramaic language) Jerome was, especially considering he did it in a single night. Considering he talks about multiple codices, I get the sense he looked them all over and said to Hell with it and grabbed the simplest one and translated that. It seems odd that he would not just go back to the Septuagint translation and translate from Greek to Latin.

THE PREFACE OF JEROME ON THE BOOK OF JUDITH
Among the Jews, the book of Judith is considered among the apocrypha; its warrant for affirming those [apocryphal texts] which have come into dispute is deemed less than sufficient. Moreover, since it was written in the Chaldean language, it is counted among the historical books. But since the Nicene Council is considered to have counted this book among the number of sacred Scriptures, I have acquiesced to your request (or should I say demand!): and, my other work set aside, from which I was forcibly restrained, I have given a single night's work , translating according to sense rather than verbatim. I have hacked away at the excessively error-ridden panoply of the many codices; I conveyed in Latin only what I could find expressed coherently in the Chaldean words. Receive the widow Judith, example of chastity, and with triumphant praise acclaim her with eternal public celebration. For not only for women, but even for men, she has been given as a model by the one who rewards her chastity, who has ascribed to her such virtue that she conquered the unconquered among humanity, and surmounted the insurmountable.

Thanks,

Bill
 
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Geralt

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im not a mormon, asked any one of them.

its not trusting man and women, this is not about people. its agreeing with what has been written after careful analysis of both content and ownership.

we do not "do-as-you-are-told" because some long bearded person dressed in uniform with all his titles said so. you might want to talk to the orthodox or the romanists, they prefer to control their constitutents this way.

Which men and women has God worked in to determine that the book of Revelation is scripture? There are many people claiming that the books they accept come from God so how do you know which men and women to trust? For example, do you accept the book of Mormon that Joseph Smith claimed God revealed to him?
 
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samir

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im not a mormon, asked any one of them.

Is that an admission that you have no idea whether the book of Mormon is God's word and don't care either way?

its not trusting man and women, this is not about people. its agreeing with what has been written after careful analysis of both content and ownership.

How do you know which books to analyze? How do you know the results of your analysis aren't wrong? Luther analyzed the contents and ownership of the book of Revelation and concluded that it wasn't God's word? Could he have been wrong? If so, how can you be confident of your own analysis?

we do not "do-as-you-are-told" because some long bearded person dressed in uniform with all his titles said so. you might want to talk to the orthodox or the romanists, they prefer to control their constitutents this way.

Are you saying you just pick and choose what you want to believe?
 
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Phil 1:21

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Interesting that Mormonism was interjected. Mormons claim the Bible can only be interpreted through their prophets and additional texts like Book of Mormon. Jehovah's Witnesses claim the Bible can only be interpreted through the Watch Tower Society. Roman Catholics claim the Bible can only be interpreted through the Magisterium.
 
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look you can go on and on playing the interrogator, it wont help this discussion one way or another. your trick of making personal questions now is making this discussion a fallacy.

obviously you have moved from authority to methodology, and so far away from the original OP you did not even start. but the answer is still the same and i do not want to repeat myself, the foundation of the church is christ, and his apostles. if you have questions about the canon, then go grab a book on christian history and bounce all your questions there. if you want to ask personal questions presuming I just made this up, then you have missed the point.

Is that an admission that you have no idea whether the book of Mormon is God's word and don't care either way?

How do you know which books to analyze? How do you know the results of your analysis aren't wrong? Luther analyzed the contents and ownership of the book of Revelation and concluded that it wasn't God's word? Could he have been wrong? If so, how can you be confident of your own analysis?

Are you saying you just pick and choose what you want to believe?
 
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samir

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look you can go on and on playing the interrogator, it wont help this discussion one way or another. your trick of making personal questions now is making this discussion a fallacy.

I simply asked how you determine which books are scripture since you reject the church authorities that gave us the canon. Your inability or unwillingness to answer the question is noted.

obviously you have moved from authority to methodology, and so far away from the original OP you did not even start. but the answer is still the same and i do not want to repeat myself, the foundation of the church is christ, and his apostles. if you have questions about the canon, then go grab a book on christian history and bounce all your questions there. if you want to ask personal questions presuming I just made this up, then you have missed the point.

I studied church history and learned the canon used today came from Catholic Church councils in the 4th century. The Protestant 66 book canon was never used by anyone during the first 1,500 years after Christ. I found no evidence to support it. It was created by former Catholics who just took the Catholic canon used since the early church and removed 7 books because it disagreed with their new traditions that were opposed to purgatory that scripture teaches in 2Maccabees. I have yet to find a single Protestant who could explain why they accept the books they accept so I had no choice but to reject Protestantism completely since without a canon there isn't a bible to rely upon.
 
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BBAS 64

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You are right. The Council at Rome was local and hampered in that the Emperor had called a council at the same time in Constantinople. So most of the Eastern Bishops were in Constantinople and not at the Council in Rome. The canon of the Council of Rome was reaffirmed in 393 at the Council of Hippo (largely influenced by Augustine) and later in 397 at the Council of Carthage. Both of these councils were in Africa and efforts to extend a universal canon to the East did not prove fruitful. But as far as the areas now part of the Catholic Church, that about covers it. I accept this as the official closing of the Catholic canon; but I have had very learned Catholic professors insist that to close the canon would require a doctrinal decree that is binding on all under anathema on breaking it. This did not happen until Trent.

Truthfully if looked at through the larger mirror of the total early church (including the Syriac, Peshitta, Chaldean, Coptic, etc. churches) you see that the canon throughout the entirety of Christianity has never been codified. That is why I agree with you in that this is more a historical argument than a theological one.


That is a very interesting question and one I have thought on a bit. First probably in 380-400 A.D., he had access to Hebrew manuscripts that have long since disappeared. He states that when arriving at a point in the translation of the OT where these Hebrew manuscripts are not the same as the Septuagint (here he denigrates the Theodotion recension in usage by the Church at that time), he tried to stay true to the Hebrew manuscript.

He was charged with mistranslating Genesis 3:15 so that the current translation of
"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."
became what is found in the Douay-Rheims
"I will put enmities between thee [the serpent] and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: She shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."
This led to a lot of medieval art showing Mary with her foot on the serpents head. But it has since been shown that Jerome correctly translated into Latin from the Septuagint version of this text using the Greek he/his pronoun. The Hebrew contains no pronouns and can be read both ways. Later someone changed this in the Vulgate to she/her.


I would wonder how capable of translating from Chaldean (an Aramaic language) Jerome was, especially considering he did it in a single night. Considering he talks about multiple codices, I get the sense he looked them all over and said to Hell with it and grabbed the simplest one and translated that. It seems odd that he would not just go back to the Septuagint translation and translate from Greek to Latin.

Thanks for the thought full post.. I could talk about these things all day.

Seems like we ask the same questions.

Thanks again,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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Understood. You reject the Catholic council that gave us the Old and New Testaments because you don't consider it to be a reliable authority. That means you can't use that council as proof that any of the books you accept are scripture and will need to find another authority to verify that each book you accept is scripture and each book you reject is not scripture.



Looking forward to it.



How would that be relevant? According to Wikipedia, Luther's bible contained all 73 books in both testaments despite him not accepting some of those books as scripture. Luther explained why he rejected the book of Revelation in his preface to the book of Revelation in the bible he wrote.

Good day, Samir

I did not get any canon from a council, you presuppose authority is required and the church of rome flls that need for you. I see the question of the canon as purely historical, regardless if that be the NT or OT.

Gauis of Rome had issues with the book, even though it was widely accepted.

Have you read Luther on Revelations what is it you find so irritating ... you may not agree with him and that is ok. I am sure there are many in the history of the "church" that you would disagree with and them with you.


Luther:
About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own ideas, and would bind no man to my opinion or judgment; I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and this makes me hold it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic. First and foremost, the Apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear, plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the Gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak of Christ and His deeds without figures and visions; but there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so out and out with visions and figures. And so I think of it almost as I do of the Fourth Book of Esdras, and can nohow detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.Moreover, he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly, — more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important, — and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will deal likewise with him. Again, they are to be blessed who keep what is written therein; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. It is just the same as if we had it not, and there are many far better books for us to keep. Many of the fathers, too, rejected this book of old, though St. Jerome, to be sure, praises it highly and says that it is above all praise and that there are as many mysteries in it as words; though he cannot prove this at all, and his praise is, at many points, too mild.Finally, let everyone think of it as his own spirit gives him to think. My spirit cannot fit itself into this book. There is one sufficient reason for me not to think highly of it,-Christ is not taught or known in it; but to teach Christ is the thing which an apostle is bound, above all else, to do, as He says in Acts 1:8 , “Ye shall be my witnesses.” Therefore I stick to the books which give me Christ, clearly and purely,

For a fuller understanding I would recommend :

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther on Revelation: "I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it."

In Him,

Bill
 
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samir

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Good day, Samir

I did not get any canon from a council, you presuppose authority is required and the church of rome flls that need for you. I see the question of the canon as purely historical, regardless if that be the NT or OT.

I'm a non-denominational Christian. I studied Catholicism after I heard it claims to be the church founded by Jesus. While studying I realized I had no idea whether the books in my bible were actually God's word. I had just accepted it based on blind faith in the person who gave it to me. I trusted in man just like Catholics trust in men (such as bishops). Seeing the canon as purely historical doesn't explain anything nor does it help me determine which books are scripture. If someone had handed me the Mormon bible instead of the Protestant bible, I probably would have believed it to be God's word and could have seen that as historical too.

Gauis of Rome had issues with the book, even though it was widely accepted.

That shows that prior to the church council that gave us the 73 book Christian canon even presbyters in Rome didn't have any way to determine whether a book was scripture or just a fallible writing of man. That confirms that Protestants, if they are honest with themselves, probably have no way of knowing which books are scripture.


Have you read Luther on Revelations what is it you find so irritating ... you may not agree with him and that is ok. I am sure there are many in the history of the "church" that you would disagree with and them with you.

Yes, that's the preface I read. I don't find any of it irritating. It shows that Luther, the founder of Protestantism, had no way to determine whether Revelation or any other book was scripture. He was forced to rely upon subjective opinions based on what felt right to him without any way of knowing whether he was right.



I checked out that link but could not find an objective standard I could use to determine whether the book of Revelation is scripture. It looks like other Protestants eventually convinced him to accepted it but without an objective standard they could have been wrong too.

This is an issue that should be of the utmost importance to any Protestant. If you can't know for sure whether Revelation or any other book is scripture then you can't really trust any of it since it may not be God's word and therefore could teach error.
 
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tz620q

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Good day,

As noted here:

Our analysis has shown that the vast weight of historical evidence falls on the side of excluding the Apocrypha from the category of canonical Scripture. It is interesting to note that the only two Fathers of the early Church who are considered to be true biblical scholars, Jerome and Origen (and who both spent time in the area of Palestine and were therefore familiar with the Hebrew canon), rejected the Apocrypha. And the near unanimous opinion of the Church followed this view. And coupled with this historical evidence is the fact that these writings have serious internal difficulties in that they are characterized by heresies, inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies which invalidate their being given the status of Scripture. New Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. I (Washington D.C.: Catholic University, 1967), p. 390.
Bill,
I was able to look over the second edition of the New Catholic Encyclopedia that replaced this 1967 edition. It seems that this article on canon has been rewritten and the part above is no longer there.

Byron
 
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BBAS 64

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Bill,
I was able to look over the second edition of the New Catholic Encyclopedia that replaced this 1967 edition. It seems that this article on canon has been rewritten and the part above is no longer there.

Byron


Good day, Byron

Would you be so kind a to post what the rewrite is... I assure you some time ago I did verify the validity of this quote. I think you would have to agree with much of what had been said there from an historical point of view. I posted another thread on Catjetan and the quote I provided earlier where he referenced Jerome, there is some "meat" there that you may find interesting.

Edited to add:

Addressing the status of the Apocrypha pre Trent



In Him,

Bill
 
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tz620q

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Good day, Byron

Would you be so kind a to post what the rewrite is... I assure you some time ago I did verify the validity of this quote. I think you would have to agree with much of what had been said there from an historical point of view. I posted another thread on Catjetan and the quote I provided earlier where he referenced Jerome, there is some "meat" there that you may find interesting.

Edited to add:

Addressing the status of the Apocrypha pre Trent



In Him,

Bill
The New Catholic Encyclopedia is not available online to quote. So I had to go to our church library yesterday before singing at a funeral to look into this. The article on canon is about 4 pages long and would be rather cumbersome to enter here. I believe you that the quote was there in the 1967 edition. I am sorry if it seemed I was doubting you. The 1960's in the Catholic Church was a time when the doors had been opened by Vatican II to all types of winds of change. Some of these have since been seen as going too far and a re-entrenchment has been going on since JPII. This would explain the rewrite and the dropping of the section you quoted. Of course, this is just supposition on my part.

I did look at your other thread and it does bring up a rather interesting point. Most people see Catholicism as a monolith that is ruled by the iron hand of the Pope with little room for dissent. But in truth, the Church realizes that there needs to be enough room given for academic discussion to happen. So opinions are allowed to be expressed and commented on, even if they seem to contradict previous policy. Of course, the leeway given has varied over time and circumstances. The leeway given in 1498, with the Humanist movement influencing the way theologians thought and wrote, would be different than the post Trent leeway. A good example of this is Luther himself. He was a professor at a rather new Catholic university (1502) started by his patron, Frederick the Wise. Under the auspices of Frederick, he was allowed to say things against the Catholic Church that if applied to any business today would get you fired quickly. Yet it was 4 years before he was excommunicated. Now there are very good historical reasons for this delay that have nothing to do with patience on the part of the Pope; but it does show that the Church gives it's theologians a lot of latitude. A modern example of this is Alfred Loisy in the early 1900's. I bring all this up to show that you can find writings by even the most brilliant of Catholic scholars (like Cajetan in his time) that disagree with the accepted position as defined in the Council of Florence.

Now referencing the canon and specifically Luther's comments on Revelations. I read it and thought that this opinion could just have easily come from 400 A.D. His thoughts were not new; but really reflected the reservations that many at the councils in Hippo and Carthage had on including Revelations in the canon. This is why I cringe when I see modern churches who make this a mainstay in they faith position, often ignoring other Scripture to propose the most preposterous of theories.
 
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