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Why some get dispensations muddled up ?

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Dan Perez, Jul 1, 2021.

  1. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    I believe what I have seen , is that dispensations are muddled up , by the following :

    #1 They believe that it is fairly new on the scene .

    #2 Many believe it is the Bride of Christ ?

    #3 They believe that Paul preached the same message as Peter .

    #5 And some believe that the B O C will be in the Great Tribulation .

    #6 And believe that Paul water baptized .

    #7 Gal 1:23 shows that there were 3 messages being preached at the same time .

    #8 Many do believe that the B O C began at ACTS 2 , or at Acts 9 , or at Acts 13 or at Acts 28 .

    #9 And many do not believe that Israel ( Little Flock was Set aside )

    #10 They can not explain how Paul was saved NOR when he received the Holy Spirit .

    #11 Only believe in ONE Gospel , when , there are at least 4 and IF there is only one Gospel , HOW was Adam saved

    dan p
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
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  2. GallagherM

    GallagherM Well-Known Member

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    Hello Dan Perez;

    I am someone who believes the bible; but I do not know what most of the arguments or things like that are for dispensation, not even understanding it unless it is defined in the Greek sense; or what the beliefs are when it comes down to the traditions of man on the dispensation.

    Strong's Concordance
    oikonomia: stewardship, administration
    Original Word: οἰκονομία, ας, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: oikonomia
    Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kon-om-ee'-ah)

    Definition: stewardship, administration
    Usage: management of household affairs, stewardship, administration.

    HELPS Word-studies

    3622
    oikonomía (from 3621 /oikonoméō, "a steward, managing a household") – properly, a stewardship, management (administration), i.e. where a person looks after another's affairs (resources).

    [A "dispensation" can also refer to a special period of time (management). But this is a secondary (not primary) meaning of 3622 (oikonomía).]



    It seems as though Paul would be managing the affairs of the bride (which would include directing the first church of Christ) that was going to be taken away when the return of Jesus Christ had happened; and the bride can be found in the Revelation of the 144,000.

    Now I wont say that because of this that there is no more hope. There most certainly is still hope for what has been laid up for us in heaven according to Colossians 1:5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel,

    Jesus Christ is very much needed in this life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
  3. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And that is why I wrote about Luke 16:2 and 4 and OIKONOMIA as what I see it means HOUSE LAW and can be translated by the word Management .

    The 144,000 are all Jews , is what I see , from the 12 tribes of Israel .

    dan p
     
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  4. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    I think every charismatic church I have been to believed the BOC began at Acts 2.

    Their justification that tongues are also meant for today comes from that belief.
     
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  5. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    The Bible was written to one of groups of people… Jew, Gentile, or Church of God…… The Church of God being the incorporated body of believers who are born again, which in essence was founded on the day of Pentecost and fully realized some years later. In Gods sight those that are born again are no longer a Jew or Gentile, they now belong to the Church of God….Christ being the head, and we all being members in particular (1Co 12:27)

    This “dispensation” (Gr = (oikonomia) better translated → administration of Grace, (Eph 3:2) which we live in, is a different time period under different house rule or administration, similar to the US Presidency administrations….. No one would deny right now that we in the US are under different administration… they may be wishing we were, but we are under a new administration with different rulership. Trump is not Biden…. different rules apply in different administrations. We, as members of the Church of God, in the body of Christ are no longer under the law, but under Grace. That which was applicable previous to grace does not apply to us…..it is for our learning as Rom 15:4 states ….and 1Co 10:11 speaking about Israel.

    In short, what applies, and was directly written to us “the born again believers living in this grace administration” are the seven church epistles Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Thessalonians….. Which begs the question, what about the Gospels?.... ➡ Although placed in the New Testament by translators, the gospels are figuratively the binding or the cohesive bond of the Bible; they stand alone, being neither in the Old nor the New.

    The GOSPELS are critically important in our understanding of what our Lord and savior Jesus Christ accomplished in his walk, death, resurrection and ascension….. but, it must be noted that Jesus Christ came to minister to Israel→ the Bride….. Israel rejected him and killed their King, the Bridegroom. The Church of the Bride is at this time held in abeyance and picks up again in Revelation. In Acts 1 prior to Jesus being taken up the Apostles were showing concerns about the kingdom of Israel also Act 1:6 &7because nobody but God knew what was coming next…. It was a mystery (secret) kept hidden with God…..

    1Pe 1:10-12 The prophets of old could see the sufferings of Jesus and the glory that would come from Old Testament scriptures, but they could not see this age of grace that God had kept secret; it was sandwiched in-between the sufferings and the glory … no one knew …except God….and for good reason 1Co 2:7&8 Had the Devil known about this secret he would never have crucified the Lord of Glory …the devil was totally unaware of Gods plan …the mystery. The devil would much rather have had Jesus Christ present on earth then to have millions of believers with Christ in them scattered across the world.


    Why bring this up???

    Because information found in the gospels regarding the return of Christ will have no or miniscule information regarding the Church of God in the grace administration. It will only reference the tribulation.
    What takes place with the grace administration and Christ returning for the Church of the Body to which we belong was not revealed until Paul received it by revelation…. Eph 3:1-6, Rom 16: 25&26

    There is a BIG difference between the two (the THE BRIDE OF CHRIST in the gospels, which is for our learning and BODY OF CHRIST in the epistles written directly to us) they are not the same, and if not distinguished it will cause much confusion.


    Christ’s return for the Church of the Body

    In Matthew 24: 3 the disciples asked Christ about the return and the end.

    3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end (sunteleia moving towards the final point, (telos) of the world? (age)


    verse 6b …. for all these things must come to pass, but the end (telos final point) is not yet.


    The word coming in verse 3 is the Greek word parousia translated in the Bible as “coming” and “presence”, and always indicates the personal presence of the person spoken of

    Just as Christ’s first coming spanned a period of time, so does the second coming (parousia)

    The events of the END (sunteleia) include:

    (1.) Christ coming FOR His saints

    (2.) Christ coming WITH His saints (events of the book of Revelation)

    (3.) The first and second resurrections, (4.) and finally the END (telos) when death is destroyed and all things are subdued to God


    The second coming of Christ has two basic phases to the parousia which must be distinguished so as to avoid confusion.

    The first part of the parousia is the return of Christ for his church. In II Thessalonians 2:1 it is called “our gathering together unto Him” (this portion of the parousia is not referred to as the resurrection, because not all will be dead when Christ returns for the Church of the Body)

    This affects only those who are/were born again of God during this age of “the Church of the Body” “the age of grace” the period in which we now live. No unbelievers, nor Old Testament believers, nor the Church of the Bride will be affected by this part of the parousia.



    The events of Christ’s return for the Church of the Body are recorded in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:51-54. It is interesting to note that the books of Thessalonians were the first (chronologically speaking) revelation God gave to Paul..... Having the hope of the return of Christ before them was what they needed to endure the mental pressure, verbal and physical persecution as they moved forth spreading the Word…..

    1Th 4:1318 ….Verse 17 states ….Christ will not actually come to the earth He will simple gather the dead in Christ first, then those which are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

    I Corinthians 15:51-54 also gives added insight to the return
    1Cor 15:5154


    The return of Christ with his saints (us, the Church of the body) to the earth is the second phase of the parousia. Unlike the first phase when Christ came for the church of the body… this time (after a period of time …7 years I believe) Christ comes down TO the earth WITH us (his saints). This is the Lords day….in the Greek it is called apokalupsis the appearing, revelation, and the advent.

    The day of the Lord includes the period of Gods judgment …..this is something we as the church of the body do not have to endure. The church of the Body will be spared the tribulation spoken of in Revelation; several passages in the epistles confirm this.


    II Thessalonians 2:1-3

    1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


    The words “falling away first” properly translated would be “a drawing out from among” or “a departure first” from the Greek words “He apostasia”……..When the light of the believers depart …that leaves only darkness, evil and wickedness………….. But we will not be here.
     
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  6. GallagherM

    GallagherM Well-Known Member

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    The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ; and the receiving of the reward that a person had coming to them living a life for God and having willingly love for God and the Lord Jesus Christ will be bestowed upon them a death, is what I believe @sandman. That is how I look at some of the things you said.
     
  7. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    HI Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness so Abraham was saved by faith.
    Now Jesus told of Lazarus and the rich man who both died and in the earth were two compartments. One of torment and one of comfort ABrahams bosom. Now in Rev 5 we see teh dead saints in heaven sing to the lamb that you are worthy to take the scrolls and open the seals for you have redeemed us by your blood out of every tribe tongue kindred and nations. So redemption from Adam onward is by the blood of the lamb. Jesus descended into hell to ransom those in ABraham's bosom and the thief on the cross was promised to be with Jesus in paradise the same day he died. So those who died like Job and ABraham were declared righteous and they resided with Lazarus until Jesus said it is finished.
     
  8. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And I did too , and as a kid , it scared me and 1 cor 13:8 corrects that problem .

    dan p
     
  9. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi sandman,

    So good to read of those great truths you have spoken of - the difference between the Body and the Bride. A most important truth that needs to be clarified in our day.

    Thus said I do have to point out that no where in scripture does it say that we, the Body of Christ come back with the Lord when He comes to deliver Israel and bring judgment upon the rebellious nations. You may like to discuss this.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  10. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    Hi Marilyn

    The only scripture I have in reference to us coming back with Christ is 2Th 1:10

    1:10 When (after) he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    A while back I heard a teaching that we come back as ministering spirits to Israel. I will have to see if I have my notes on that. Truthfully, I do not study Revelation much, simply because what applies to me in that book is out of my hands…once I am taken up (alive or asleep)
     
  11. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And there are 2 verses , MORE !

    In 2 Thess 2:1 on of account the COMING / PAROUSIA even the gathering together unto to Him .

    The other one is in Gal 1:4 , so that He might RESCUE / PULL out of this present evil age .

    dan p
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
  12. Dan Perez

    Dan Perez Active Member

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    And here is an other thing those can not explain , why in Luke 16:3 , the translator say that OIKINOMIA should be translated STEWARDSHIP ?

    dan p
     
  13. biblelesson

    biblelesson Active Member

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    Thank you your comments, which clarified some things. I've been looking for answers.

    For the four and twenty elders, who cast their crowns before the Lamb who opens the scrolls, I recently said they were those who had been raptured. Although it makes sense that those in heaven would have been those waiting in Abraham's bosom and who were redeemed to heaven after Jesus died and went to get them from their waiting place.

    So, because the saints/church are not going to have to suffer the tribulation, and because the the destruction is to be like in the days of Noah, that means that the saints will be redeemed before the Lamb opens the first scroll that starts the wrath of God poured down on the earth. If that's the case, then will they be raptured and be apart of the four and twenty elders who are praising the Lamb before the scrolls are opened? What do you think?

    Or do the saints go straight to New Jerusalem before it comes down from heaven, and are there waiting with Jesus before Jesus comes and stands on Mount Sion with his 144 Thousand in Revelations, who are the saints, along with those who will fight with Jesus in the war of armageddon? Because New Jerusalem is also described as the bride of Christ in Revelations. What do you think?
     
  14. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi good observations and you are starting to connect scripture with scripture and the more you go through it and link all the verses talking about these days and the timing and transitions you can set things in a line. Jesus noted two groups of people as the end of age approaches. One group he told to pray always that they would counted worthy to escape these things that are coming upon the earth and that they would be standing before the son of man. Now I sure hope to be in this group. The other group is those who's hearts are failing them for fear of what it coming upon the earth. YOu are right that the seal judgments begin the tribulation or 70th week of Daniel. Rev 5 happens before chapter 6 and in the letters to the church of Philadelphia Jesus tells them that He will keep them from the hour that is coming to test the whole earth.

    Now Jude quotes Enoch 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

    Zech 14
    1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
    And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
    2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
    The city shall be taken,
    The houses rifled,
    And the women ravished.
    Half of the city shall go into captivity,
    But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then the LORD will go forth
    And fight against those nations,
    As He fights in the day of battle.
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
    Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
    And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
    From east to west,
    Making a very large valley;
    Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
    And half of it toward the south.
    5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
    For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
    Yes, you shall flee
    As you fled from the earthquake
    In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
    Thus the LORD my God will come,
    And all the saints with You.

    This is a key chapter to really study as this view of the 2nd coming had the LORD coming and the LORD is now king over all the earth and the nations which are left must now come and worship the LORD in Jerusalem or they get no rain. The saints will reign with him and then the New Jerusalem and all come at the end of the millennium
     
  15. biblelesson

    biblelesson Active Member

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    Thanks for your reply, and scriptures. Yes, I have some studying to do.
     
  16. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    for read zech 14 then Luke chapter 1 and list the things in Luke that Jesus is promised to do; namely take the throne of David and keep the promises prophecies, covenants and oaths the Israel will be delivered from their enemies and from that time on they will worship and serve in holiness without fear all the days of thier lives. So in Zech 14 you see this exact kind of deliverance and the LORD is king (Jesus ) and the river that flows when the mount of Olives splits one of the forks goes east which would take it into the dead sea. Now look at Eze 47 and you see a prophecy about the dead sea and Israel that will blow your mind.
     
  17. biblelesson

    biblelesson Active Member

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    Wow, I'm joyful just reading this. I will study this this. I never really paid attention to the Mount of olives splitting. What I have been studying are the seals (I said scrolls incorrectly in my last post), trumpets and vials. I have been seeing that they are the same events explained with additional things occurring.

    I also plan to study the difference between the Temple mentioned in Ezekiel, which I believe will be during the thousand years in Jerusalem, and New Jerusalem that comes down from heaven.

    After the thousand years, Gog and Ma-gog will attack Jerusalem and Satan will be cast in the lake of fire. From there I'm lost.

    One thing I want to mention. I truly believe God revealed this to me, and I see that most people have not even thought about this. Some say that the 144 thousand in Revelations 7 is the 12 tribes from the nation of Israel that are being counted, where 12,000 per tribe are sealed, totaling 144,000.

    Well, that's not the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel being sealed in the way you might think, and they are not being counted. The saints/God's servants are being sealed for their city in New Jerusalem.

    Revelations 21, there are 12 gates in New Jerusalem, with an angel at each gate. Each gate leads to a city for each tribe of Israel. So there are 12 cities per tribe that measures 12,000 furlongs (same as the the number in Revelation 7). The entire wall that covers all 12 cities, measures 144000 cubits (same number in Revelation 7). When God's servants are sealed by the angel, they are being sealed for their city (Revelations 3:12) that's designated for their tribe, which measures 12,000 furlong. They are not being counted. The angels at the 12 gates seeing the seal, will know which saint goes to what tribe, and what city, out of the multitude of those saved out of every nation and every tongue. Because they are not the original, they have been grafted in to Israel, Romans 11:24, and share the same promise as Israel, Ephesians 3:6.

    For example:
    The city of Dan in New Jerusalem measures 12,000 furlongs, so there will be groups of saved saints from different nations sealed by the angel for the city of Dan. The seal is for the city of Dan.

    The city of Levi in New Jerusalem measures 12,000 furlongs, so there will be groups of saved saints from different nations sealed by the angel for the city of Levi. The seal is for the city of Levi.

    The entire 12 cities per tribe all are within New Jerusalem, which the wall that covers the cities measures 144,000 cubits.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  18. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    Hi interesting ideas you have about the 12 tribes. I m going to have to wait and see on this one. I see that it is possible that it might not be a cube at all as a pyramid also can have the same length width and height. The occult uses the pyramid as a symbol of Lucifer and the eye in the capstone is the goal when Satan takes control over the earth. Now the idea that Lucifer wanted to be like the most high might imply the new Jerusalem being a pyramid and that is why they use it as symbolically he would be taking God's place. Now after the 1000 years is over for sure we won't be needing the same kind of things we do now like houses and garages but we will be more like the angels and never get tired and all sorts of changes that we are not told much about. I see losing our sin nature and getting the new bodies are the house that God (Jesus) went to prepare for us and not a tangible dwelling like a building.
     
  19. biblelesson

    biblelesson Active Member

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    The measurements are according to an angel!

    Revelation 21:17, "And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel." So we can't know the measurements, as we don't know the measurement of angels.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
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