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Why should I believe in Jesus?

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God's girl.....that thing you are referring to was an internet hoax that was circulating a couple of years ago. No such 'scientific' thing has ever been found. Made for good reading though.

Squirrel....so, you don't think that Jesus of Nazereth was an actual figure? Even the most doubful scholar now admits this in light of the evidence.

What makes you doubt the authenticity of the historical documents that make up the New Testament. Is it the documents...or the subject matter?
 
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Originally posted by SimpleChristian


Squirrel....so, you don't think that Jesus of Nazereth was an actual figure? Even the most doubful scholar now admits this in light of the evidence.

No I do not think so. Can I prove this? No I cannot. A few books I have read on this I have really enjoyed. One of them was "Who wrote the New Testament? " by Burton L. Mack and the other was "The Jesus puzzle " by Earl Doherty(sp? I do not have the book with me...) Anyways, I find very little hardcore evidence for the actual existance of a jew named Yeshua as portrayed in the bible. But this is not the place for this type of discussion, and to be honest, I am not up for a long drawn out talk or debate about this subject.

What makes you doubt the authenticity of the historical documents that make up the New Testament. Is it the documents...or the subject matter?

The NT as whole. The bible, as it was put together by vote, the history of the books of the bible.... John admits to being propaganda, there are other reasons as well. And since there are no orginal documents, all we have are copies of copies of copies, and with the track record of the early church.... not to mention the fact the letters and such were written way after the events took place... makes it suspect to say the least. And I know people will go for the holy spirit guide thing, I do not buy it, and discount it as any form of proof...since I do not believe in such an animal.
 
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Both. The history and the subject matter. I do not believe in the supernatural... the documents themselves are suspect since we have no originals....we do not not know who wrote what save for a few of the letters of Paul... the differences in the manuscripts (no matter how small) the addition of later "verses" (mark 16 comes to mind along with 1 john) and other points as well... lead me to believe that the "documents" of the bible are just as suspect as the "supernatural" parts.
 
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Simple question. Why should I believe in Jesus? And it is a serious one...

Squirrel-

I'm not sure exactly what you would like to know. Are you asking for evidence of Jesus' existence, divinity, or asking about why should you follow him?

I will answer the easy one, and if that isn't what you are asking, I will try and help with the first two options.

You should follow Jesus because He created you to love and serve Him. That is your purpose in life. And also remember that He died for your mistakes that you make in not living up to your purpose. That is how much He loves you.
 
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What specific evidence do you have that they are the authors of the gospels?
The oldest and probably most significant testimony comes from Papias, who in about AD 125 specifically affirmed that Mark had carefully and accurately recorded Peter’s eyewitness observations. IN fact, he said Mark ‘made no mistake’ and did not include ‘any false statement’. And Papias said Matthew had preserved the teachings of Jesus as well. Then Irenaeus, writing about AD 180 confirmed the traditional authorship. He said “Matthew published his own Gospel among the Hebrews in their own tongue, when Peter and Paul were preaching the Gospel in Rom and founding the church there. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, himself handed down to us in writing the substance of Peter’s preaching. Luke, the follower of Paul, set down in a book the Gospel preached by his teacher. Then John, the disciple of the Lord, who also leaned on his breast, himself produced his Gospel while he was living at Ephesus in Asia (Iranaeus, Adversus haeresus 3.3.4).

Can you find the theme of Jesus’ deity in the synoptics?
Think of the story of Jesus walking on the water, found in Matthew 14:22-23 and Mark 6:45-52. Most English translations hide the Greek by quoting Jesus as saying ‘Fear not, it is I.’ Actually, the Greek literally says ‘Fear not, I am.’ Those last two words are identical to what Jesus said in John 8:58, when he took upon himself the divine name ‘I Am,’ which is the way God revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush in Exodus 3:14. So Jesus is revealing himself as the one who has the same divine power over nature as Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament.
In addition, Jesus claims to forgive sins in the synoptics, and that’s something only God can do. Jesus accepts prayer and worship. Jesus says ‘Whoever acknowledges me, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven.’ Final judgment is based on one’s reaction to—whom? This mere human being? No, that would be a very arrogant claim. Final judgment is based on one’s reaction to Jesus as God.

Since it was written with a theological bent, isn’t the bible unreliable historically?
In the ancient world the idea of writing dispassionate, objective history merely to chronicle events, with no ideological purpose, was unheard of. Nobody wrote history if there wasn’t a reason to learn from it.
But if we can reconstruct reasonably accurate history from all kinds of other ancient sources, we ought to be able to do that from the gospels, even though they too are ideological.

How reliable are the scriptures, considering their age?
The standard scholarly dating, even in very liberal circles, is Mark in the 70s, Matthew and Luke in the 80s, John in the 90s. But listen: that’s still within the lifetimes of various eyewitnesses of the life of Jesus, including hostile eyewitnesses who would have served as a corrective if false teachings about Jesus were going around.
The two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than four hundred years after Alexander’s death in 323 BC, yet historians consider them to be generally trustworthy. Yes, legendary material about Alexander did develop over time, but it was only in the centuries after these two writers. In other words, the first five hundred years kept Alexander’s story pretty much intact; legendary material began to emerge over the next five hundred years. So whether the gospels were written sixty years or thirty years after the life of Jesus, the amount of time is negligible by comparison. It’s almost a nonissue.
We can support the idea of the gospels being written earlier by looking at the book of Acts, which was written by Luke. Acts ends apparently unfinished—Paul is a central figure of the book, and he’s under house arrest in Rome. With that the book abruptly halts. What happens to Paul? We don’t’ find out from Acts, because the book was written before Paul was put to death. That means that Acts cannot be dated any later than AD 62. Having established that, we can then move backward from there. Since Acts is the second of a two-part work, we know the first part—the gospel of Luke—must have been written earlier than that. And since Luke incorporates parts of the gospel of Mark, that means Mark is even earlier. If you allow maybe a year for each of those, you end up with Mark written no later then AD 60, maybe even the late 50s. If Jesus was put to death in AD 30 or 33, we’re talking about a maximum gap of thirty years or so. Historically speaking, especially compared with Alexander the Great, that’s like a news flash.

How early can we date the fundamental beliefs of Christianity?
Its important to remember that the books of the New Testament are not in chronological order. The gospels were written after almost all the letter of Paul, who writing ministry probably began in the late 40s. Most of his major letters appeared during the 50s. To find the earliest information, one goes to Paul’s epistles and then asks ‘Are there signs that even earlier sources were used in writing them?’
We find that Paul incorporated some creeds, confessions of faith or hymns from the earliest Christian church. These go way back to the dawning of the church soon after the Resurrection. The most famous creeds include Philippians 2:6-11, which talks about Jesus being ‘in very nature God’ and Colossians 1:15-20, which describes him as being ‘the image of the invisible God’ who created all things and through whom all things are reconciled with God ‘by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.’
But perhaps the most important creed in terms of the historical Jesus is 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul uses technical language to indicate he was passing along this oral tradition in relatively fixed form: “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.”
If the Crucifixion was as early as AD 30, Paul’s’ conversion was about 32. Immediately Paul was ushered into Damascus, where he met with a Christian named Ananias and some other disciples. His first meeting with the apostles in Jerusalem would have been about AD 35. At some point along there, Paul was given this creed, which had already been formulated and was being used in the early church. Now here you have the key facts about Jesus’ death for our sins, plus a detailed list of those to whom he appeared in resurrected form—all dating back to within two to five years of the events themselves!
A good case can be made for saying that Christian belief in the Resurrection, though not yet written down, can be dated to within two years of the very event. Now you’re not comparing thirty to sixty years with the five hundred years that generally acceptable for other data—you’re talking about two!
 
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Couldn’t faulty thinking have contaminated the Bible? We have to remember that we’re in a foreign land in a distant time and place and in a culture that has not yet invented computers or even the printing press. Books—or actually, scrolls of papyrus—were relatively rare. Therefore education, learning, worship, teaching in religious communities—all this was done by word of mouth. Rabbis became famous for having the entire Old Testament committed to memory. So it would have been well within the capacity of Jesus’ disciples to have committed much more to memory than appears in all four gospels put together—and to have passed it along accurately. It is difficult for us to imagine today but this was an oral culture, in which there was great emphasis placed on memorization. And remember that eighty to ninety percent of Jesus’ words were originally in poetic form. This doesn’t mean stuff that rhymes, but it has a meter, balanced lines, parallelism, and so forth—and this would have created a great memory help. The other thing that needs to be said is that the definition of memorization was more flexible back then. In studies of cultures with oral traditions, there was freedom to vary how much of the story was told on any given occasion—what was included, what was left out, what was paraphrased, what was explained, and so forth. One study suggested that in the ancient Middle East, anywhere from 10 to 40 percent of any given retelling of sacred tradition could vary from one occasion to the next. However, there were always fixed points that were unalterable, and the community had the right to intervene and correct the storyteller if eh erred on those important aspects of the story.
It is likely that a lot of the similarities and differences among the synoptics can be explained by assuming that the disciples and other early Christians had committed to memory a lot of what Jesus said and did, but they felt free to recount this information in various forms, always preserving the significance of Jesus’ original teachings and deeds.

So, isn’t that like playing telephone? If you really wanted to develop that analogy in light of the checks and balances of the first-century community, you’d have to say that every third person, out loud in a very clear voice, would have to ask the first person, ‘Do I still have it right?’ and change it if he didn’t. The community would constantly be monitoring what was said and intervening to make corrections along the way. That would preserve the integrity of the message.

Aren’t the gospels full of contradictions? Once you allow for the elements talked about earlier—paraphrase, abridgment, explanatory additions, selection, omission—the gospels are extremely consistent with each other by ancient standards, which are the only standards by which its fair to judge them. Simon Greenleaf of Harvard Law School, one of history’s most important legal figures and the author of an influential treatise on evidence. After studying the consistency among the four gospel writers, he offered this evaluation: “There is enough of a discrepancy to show that there could have been no previous concert among them; and at the same time such substantial agreement as to show that they all were independent narrators of the same great transaction.” (Simon Greenleaf, The Testimony of the Evangelists, Grand Rapids: Baker, 1984, vii)
From the perspective of a classical historian, German scholar Hans Stier has concurred that agreement over basic data and divergence of details suggest credibility, because fabricated accounts tend to be fully consistent and harmonized. He wrote “every historian is especially skeptical at that moment when an extraordinary happening is only reported in accounts which are completely free of contradictions.”(cited in Craig Blomberg, “Where Do We Start Studying Jesus?” in Michael J. Wilkins and J.P.Moreland, eds, Jesus Under Fire, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1995, pg 34).

What about the contradiction of the centurion? In Matthew it says a centurion himself came to ask Jesus to heal his servant. However Luke says the centurion sent the elders to do this. Now, that’s an obvious contradiction, isn’t it? No. Think about it this way: in our world today, we may hear a news report that says, The president today announced that…’ when in fact the speech was written by a speechwriter and delivered by the press secretary—and with a little luck, the president might have glanced at it somewhere in between. Yet nobody accuses that broadcast of being in error. In a similar way, in the ancient world it was perfectly understood and accepted that actions were often attributed to people when in fact they occurred through their subordinates or emissaries—in this case through the elders of the Jewish people.

What about Mark and Luke saying that Jesus sent the demons into the swine at Gerasa, while Matthew says it was in Gedara? Here’s one possible solution: one was a town, the other was a province. There have been ruins of a town that have been excavated at exactly the right point on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee. The English form of the town’s name often gets pronounced ‘Khersa’ but as a Hebrew word translated or transliterated into Greek, it could have come out sounding something very much like ‘Gerasa.’ So it may very well have been in Khersa—whose spelling in Greek was rendered as Gerasa—in the province of Gadara.

What about the discrepancies between the genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke?
There are multiple options to explain this. The two most common have been that Matthew reflects Joseph’s lineage, because most of his opening chapter is told from Joseph’s perspective and Joseph, as the adoptive father, would have been the legal ancestor through whom Jesus’ royal lineage would have been traced. These are themes that are important for Matthew. Luke, then, would have traced the genealogy through Mary’s lineage. And since both are from the ancestry of David, once you get that far back the lines converge.

Were others present to provide contradictions of the writings? Many people had reasons for wanting to discredit this movement and would have done so if they could have simply told history better. Yet look at what Jesus’ opponents did say. In later Jewish writings Jesus is called a sorcerer who led Israel astray—which acknowledges that he really did work marvelous wonders, although the writers dispute the source of his power. This would have been a perfect opportunity to say something like ‘the Christians will tell you he worked miracles, but we’re here to tell you he didn’t’ Yet, that’s the one thing we never see his opponents saying. Instead they implicitly acknowledge that what the gospels wrote—that Jesus performed miracles—is true.

We have a picture of what was initially a very vulnerable and fragile movement that was being subjected to persecution. If critics could have attacked it on the basis that it was full of falsehoods or distortions, they would have. That’s exactly what we don’t see.
 
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Only Copies? When I first found out that there are no surviving originals of the New Testament, I was really skeptical. I thought if all we have are copies of copies of copies, how can I have any confidence that the New Testament we have today bears any resemblance whatsoever to what was originally written. However, this is not an issue that is unique to the Bible, it’s a question we can ask of other documents that have come down to us from antiquity. What the New Testament has in its favor, especially when compared with other ancient writings, is the unprecedented multiplicity of copies that have survived. The more often you have copies what agree with each other, especially if they emerge from different geographical areas, the more you can cross-check them to figure out what the original document was like. The only way they’d agree would be where they went back genealogically in a family tree that represents the descent of the manuscripts. We have copies commencing within a couple of generations from the writing of the originals, whereas in the case of other ancient texts, maybe five, eight or ten centuries elapsed between the original and the earliest surviving copy. In addition to Greek manuscripts, we also have translations of the gospels into other languages at a relatively early time—into Latin, Syriac, and Coptic. And beyond that, we have what may be called secondary translations made a little later, like Armenian and Gothic. And a lot of others—Georgian, Ethiopic, a great variety. This helps because even if we had no Greek manuscripts today, by piecing together the information from these translations from a relatively early date, we could actually reproduce the contents of the New Testament. IN addition to that, even if we lot all the Greek manuscripts and the early translations, we could still reproduce the contents of the New Testament from the multiplicity of quotations in commentaries, sermons, letters and so forth of the early church fathers.

What is a great multiplicity of manuscripts? Well, consider Tacitus, the Roman historian who wrote his Annals of Imperial Rome in about AD116. His first sex books exist today in only one manuscript, and it was copied about AD850. Books eleven through sixteen are in another manuscript dating from the eleventh century. Books seven through ten are lost. So there is a long gap between the time that Tacitus sought his information and wrote it down and the only existing copies. With regard to the first century historian Josephus, we have nine Greek manuscripts of his work The Jewish War and these copies were written in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries. There is a Latin translation from the fourth century and medieval Russian materials from the 11th or 12th century. There is but the thinnest thread of manuscripts connecting these ancient works to the modern world.
By comparison, there are more than 5,000 New Testament Greek manuscripts in existence today. Next to the New Testament, the greatest amount of manuscript testimony is of Homer’s Iliad, which was the bible of the ancient Greeks. There are fewer then 650 Greek manuscripts of it today. They come down to us from the second and third century AD and following. When you consider that Homer composed his epic about 800BC you can see there’s a very lengthy gap (if you consider 1,000 years to just be ‘lengthy’).

What are some of these manuscripts? There are now 99 fragmentary pieces of papyrus that contain one of more passages or books of the New Testament. The most significant to come to light are the Chester Beatty Biblical Papyri, discovered about 1930. Of these, Beatty Biblical Papyrus number one contains portions of the four gospels and the book of Acts, and it dates from the third century. Papyrus number two contains large portions of eight letters of Paul, plus portions of Hebrews, dating to about the year 200. Papyrus number three has a sizable section of the book of Revelation, dating from the third century. Another group of important papyrus manuscripts was purchased by a Swiss bibliophile, M.Martin Bodmer. The earliest of these, dating from about 200, contains about two-thirds of the gospel of John. Another papyrus, containing portions of the gospels of Luke and John, dates from the third century. The earliest portion we possess today would be a fragment of the gospel of John, containing material from chapter eighteen. It has fiver versus—three on one side, two on the other—and it measures about two and a half by three and a half inches. It has been dated by many experts as having originated between AD100 to 150. Lots of prominent paleographers, like Sir Frederic Kenyon, Sir Harold Bell, Adolf Deismann, W.H.P. Hatch, Ulrich Wilcken and others have agreed with this assessment. Deissmann was convinced that it goes back at least to the reign of Emperor Hadrian, which was AD 117-138, or even Emperor Trajan, which was AD98-117. Here we have, at a very early date, a fragment of a copy of John all the way over in a community along the Nile River in Egypt, far from Ephesus in Asia Minor, where the gospel was probably originally composed.

What of the other manuscript evidence? We have what are called uncial manuscripts which are written in all-capital Greek letters. Today we have 306 of these, several dating back as early as the third century. The most important are Codex Sinaiticus, which is the only complete New Testament in uncial letters, and Codex Vaticanus, which is not quite complete. Both date to about AD350. A new style of writing, more cursive in nature, emerged in roughly AD800. It’s called minuscule and we have 2,856 of these manuscripts. Then there are also lectionaries, which contain New Testament Scripture in the sequence it was to be read in the early churches at appropriate times during the year. A total of 2,103 of these have been catalogued. That puts the grand total of Greek manuscripts of 5,664. In addition to the Greek documents there are thousands of other ancient New Testament manuscripts in other languages. There are 8,000 to 10,000 Latin Vulgate manuscripts, plus a total of 8,000 in Ethiopic, Slavic, and Armenian. In all, there are about 24,000 manuscripts in existence. We can have great confidence in the fidelity with which this material has come down to us, especially compared with any other ancient literary work. Said the late F.F. Bruce, eminent professor at the University of Manchester, England: “There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.”(F.F. Bruce, The Books and the Parchments, Old Tappan, NJ, Revell, 1963, 178). Sir Frederic Kenyon has said that “in no other case is the interval of time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest manuscripts so short as in that of the New Testament (Frederic Kenyon, Handbook to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament, New York, Macmillan, 1912, 5). Kenyon later concluded: “the last foundation for any doubt that the scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed” (Frederic Kenyon, The Bible and Archeology, New York, Harper, 1940, 288).

What about copying errors? Granted errors did creep into scribes’ copying efforts. However, there are factors counteracting that. For example, sometimes the scribe’s memory would play tricks on him. Between the time it took for him to look at the text ad then to write down the words, the order of words might get sifted. He may write down the right words, but in the wrong sequence. This is nothing to be alarmed at, because Greek, unlike English, is an inflected language. Meaning it makes a whale of a difference in English if you say ‘dog bites man’ or ‘man bites dog’—sequence matters in English. But in Greek it doesn’t. One word functions as the subject of the sentence regardless of where it stands in the sequence; consequently the meaning of the sentence isn’t distorted if the words are out of what we consider to be the right order. So yes, some variations among manuscripts exist, but generally they’re inconsequential variations like that.
 
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Is there any proof outside the Bible? Well, how about Josephus, who wrote a history called The Antiquities, which was a history of the Jewish people from the Creation until his time, completed about 93AD. In The Antiquities he describes how a high priest named Ananias took advantage of the death of the Roman governor Festus—who is also mentioned in the New Testament—in order to have James killed. Josephus writes: “he convened a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned”(Josephus, The Antiquities 20.200) Josephus had written an even lengthier section about Jesus called the Testimonium Flavianum. “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared”(ibid, 18.63-64). The quotes of Josephus are very significant since his accounts of the Jewish War have proved to be very accurate; for example, they’ve been corroborated through archaeological excavations at Masada as well as by historians like Tacitus.

Tacitus himself recorded what is probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament. In AD115 he explicitly states that Nero persecuted the Christians as scapegoats to divert suspicion away from himself for the great fire that devastated Rome in AD64. He wrote: “Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome…Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty: then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind”(Tacitus, Annals, 15.44). This is an important testimony by an unsympathetic witness to the success and spread of Christianity, based on a historical figure—Jesus—who was crucified under Pontius Pilate. And its significant that Tacitus reported that an ‘immense multitude’ held so strongly to their beliefs that they were willing to die rather than recant. Another Roman, Pliny the Younger, had also referred to Christianity in his writings. Around 80AD Pliny the Younger became governor of Bithynia in northwestern Turkey. Much of his correspondence with Emperor Trajan has been preserved. In book 10 of these letters he specifically refers to the Christians he has arrested: “I have asked them if they are Christians, and if they admit it, I repeat the question a second and third time, with a warning of the punishment awaiting them. If they persist, I order them to be led away for execution…they also declared that the sum total of their guilt or error amounted to no more than this: they had met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately amongst themselves in honor of Christ as if to a god, and also to bind themselves by oath, not for any criminal purpose, but to abstain from theft, robbery, and adultery…”(Pliny the Younger, Letters, 10.96).

How about secular corroboration of ‘miracles’? Well, how about one of the most problematic references in the New Testament where the gospel writers claim that the earth went dark during part of the time that Jesus hung on the cross. After all, if darkness had fallen over the earth, wouldn’t there be at least some mention of this extraordinary event outside the Bible? Dr. Gary Habermas has written about a historian named Thallus who in AD52 wrote a history of the eastern Mediterranean world since the Trojan War. Although Thallus’s work has been lost, it was quoted by Julius Africanus in about AD221 and it made reference to the darkness that the gospels had written about (Gary Habermas, The Historical Jesus, Joplin MO, College Press, 1996, 196-197). In this passage Julius Africanus says “Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away the darkness as an eclipse of the sun—unreasonably, as it seems to me.” So, Thallus was saying yes there had been darkness at the time of the Crucifixion and he speculated it had been caused by an eclipse. Africanus then argues that it couldn’t have been an eclipse, given when the Crucifixion occurred. Furthermore, Paul Maier said something about the darkness in a footnote in his 1968 book Pontius Pilate: “This phenomenon, evidently, was visible in Rome, Athens, and other Mediterranean cities. According to Tertullian…it was a ‘cosmic’ or ‘world event.’ Phlegon, a Greek author from Caria writing a chronology soon after 137AD, reported that in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad(ie 33AD) there was ‘the greatest eclipse of the sun’ and that ‘it became night in the sixth hour of the day [ie noon] so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea”(Paul L. Maier, Pontius Pilate, Wheaton Ill, Tyndale House, 1968, 366, citing a fragment from Phlegon, Olympiades he Chronika, 13 ed, Otto Keller, Rerum Naturalium Scriptores Graeci Minores, 1, Leipzig: Teurber, 1877, 101.)

Other non-Biblical evidence? We have better historical documentation for Jesus then for the founder of any other ancient religion. For example, although the Gathas of Zoroaster, about 1000BC are believed to be authentic, most of the Zoroastrian scriptures were not put into writing until after the third century AD. The most popular Parsi biography of Zoroaster was written in AD1278. The scriptures of Buddha, who lived in the 6th century BC were not put into writing until after the Christian era, and the first biography of Buddha was written in the first century AD. Although we have the sayings of Muhammad, who lived from AD570 to 632, in the Koran, his biography was not written until 767, more than a full century after his death. Now, let’s pretend that we didn’t have any of the New Testament or other Christian writings. What could we conclude from ancient non-Christian sources? We would still have a considerable amount of important historical evidence; in fact it would provide a kind of outline for the life of Jesus. We would know that first Jesus was a Jewish teacher; second, many people believed that he performed healings and exorcisms; third some people believed he was the Messiah; fourth he was rejected by the Jewish leaders; fifth, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius; sixth, despite this shameful death, his followers, who believed that he was still alive, spread beyond Palestine so that there were multitudes of them in Rome by AD64 and seventh all kinds of people from the cities and the countryside—men and woman, slave and free—worshipped him as God. That’s pretty significant, huh?
 
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Dr. Lao...I have never inferred that those words were mine and never would claim that they were if questioned on it. Yes, those thoughts are from Lee Strobel's book....but he has actually told me before that he doesn't care if people do that or not. Yes, he told me...I actually asked him that on a call in radio talk show before.
 
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Originally posted by SimpleChristian
Squirrel...I know that was a lot of information to absorb quickly....but what do you think of all that? And it's really just the beginning....

I have read it, and to be honest, I am still not convinced of a reason to actually buy into what christians claim about jesus.

It all boils down to special pleading, and faith in long run. I know some will claim that first if you have faith, then true knowledge will follow.... but really... if you have to revert to faith to begin with, well there you go. Thanks for answering the question though.
 
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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Maybe because it is a faith based belief, and no one can prove it to be true? And there is no reason to actually believe in the myth?"

The same can be said for your exsistance and mine, yet you believe that.

Ahhh, but there is interaction between us. you say something, and i respond. others can see this, and follow the conversation, reocords of a complete secular unbias can be shown to support we exist. by repeated demostrable evidence i can show i exist, and so can you. there is no reason to go faith on my, or your, existence. also, there is no supernatural edge to our existence either, belief in my existence (which can be demonstrated) is not claimed to be an asnwer for one's eternal soul (another faith based belief) and there is nothing spectacular about my exitence. millions of other humans are born, live and die.
 
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