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Why should I believe in Jesus?
- Thread starter Squirrel
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You need to believe in Jesus if you ever hope to have the bad things you've done in your life, to be forgiven. With out his forgiveness, you will wind up being launched into eternity without a hope to ever pay back such a serious debt to righteousness - a debt, even when committed once, is an unpayable eternal debt.
If you reject Jesus, and the salvation he offers you, you in a sense reject God; and if you reject God, the giver of life, you reject life. And if you reject life, the only thing that remains for you after death, is eternal death.
If you reject Jesus, and the salvation he offers you, you in a sense reject God; and if you reject God, the giver of life, you reject life. And if you reject life, the only thing that remains for you after death, is eternal death.
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Yet to those who received Him, to those who believed in His name, His gives the right to become children of God.
John 1:12
That in itself should be enough
. If its not, or if it stirs you, read the book of Romans in the New Testament. Why do we need Christ? It's all there!
Peace to all who seek it.
<><
John 1:12
That in itself should be enough
. If its not, or if it stirs you, read the book of Romans in the New Testament. Why do we need Christ? It's all there!Peace to all who seek it.
<><
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I'll ask a followup question: What do you think eternal death is? Complete annihilation? Eternal punishment by fire? Torment through separation from God?
-Chris
-Chris
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I think eternal death is all three. You're totally removed and completely seperated from God's presence forever, the reality of which can only be described as being a lake of fire, the darkest blackness, a bottomless pit, - so removed from God and anything else that you're just as well in a state of "annihilation" - but you're concious. Forever.
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Can you do anything? Can you talk to other people who have also rejected Jesus, play cards with them, etc?
-Chris
-Chris
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Now to that, I really don't know. One thing is for certain, you won't be able to see anything. There will be no light since God is light. And if you're falling in a void forever, I don't think you can you play cards very well (assuming there were cards), which you'd not see anyways, and this is of course assuming you could move in a void, when in fact you may just be forever suspended in space, unable to communicate with anyone or anybody. Hell is the epitome of your choice on earth: yourself. Can you imagine being alone with your self, in the blackest void, with no ability to communicate to another, no ability to move successfully, no ability to do anything, forever? It's as if you don't exist. But you do.
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Is there any biblical support for the idea that the suffering of Hell is worse than any possible suffering on Earth (other than the length of time)? It has always seemed to me like a lot of superstition and mythology has gotten tangled up in the doctrine of Hell, and I'm trying to sort things out.
My motivation behind this is that one of the major oppositions raised by non-Christians is that infinite punishment for finite sins is not just. Even though I consider myself a Christian, I also have problems with this doctrine. It requires us to believe that God has a completely different moral standard than the one he has presented to us (for instance, few people would consider burning someone alive a moral thing, and that only lasts for a short time. Torture is mostly condemned as well.) I am aware of the counterargument to this that says "God does not put people in Hell, they choose it", but I don't buy this -- it's a false dilemma fallacy which doesn't make sense, most people don't "choose hell" in the normal sense of what we consider a fully informed "choice".
I also take issue with the idea that anyone who rejects God is choosing themselves instead. There are a number of athiests and agnostics who have devoted themselves to selfless public service, not to mention the many followers of other religions who may have "servitude to [deity name] rather than self" ideas as well.
Sorry for such a long post, but I have always struggled with these doctrines, and I understand why so many Christians nowadays want to believe that Hell is simply a state of mind on earth, or symbolic, or what have you.
[edit: I added some more stuff, this is probably too long for "ask josephus", feel free to put it in interfaith]
-Chris
My motivation behind this is that one of the major oppositions raised by non-Christians is that infinite punishment for finite sins is not just. Even though I consider myself a Christian, I also have problems with this doctrine. It requires us to believe that God has a completely different moral standard than the one he has presented to us (for instance, few people would consider burning someone alive a moral thing, and that only lasts for a short time. Torture is mostly condemned as well.) I am aware of the counterargument to this that says "God does not put people in Hell, they choose it", but I don't buy this -- it's a false dilemma fallacy which doesn't make sense, most people don't "choose hell" in the normal sense of what we consider a fully informed "choice".
I also take issue with the idea that anyone who rejects God is choosing themselves instead. There are a number of athiests and agnostics who have devoted themselves to selfless public service, not to mention the many followers of other religions who may have "servitude to [deity name] rather than self" ideas as well.
Sorry for such a long post, but I have always struggled with these doctrines, and I understand why so many Christians nowadays want to believe that Hell is simply a state of mind on earth, or symbolic, or what have you.
[edit: I added some more stuff, this is probably too long for "ask josephus", feel free to put it in interfaith]
-Chris
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"Is there any biblical support for the idea that the suffering of Hell is worse than any possible suffering on Earth (other than the length of time)?"
I would think Jesus telling the story of Lazarus and the rich man in hell would be graphic enough to desribe that the reality of hell is worse than any suffering on earth, because it is the rich man in hell who begs Lazarus in paradise to find a way to tell his family on earth to avoid this place that he now finds himself in, a reality as can only be described in human language as a perpetual torment (not torture) day and night, and like a writhing inside by a worm that does not die. I liken this to this understanding: any suffering on earth is tolerable because there is an end to the suffering. When faced with torment, the one being tormented knows there is a time when he will no longer be tormented. There is "relief" in hoping in the future. In hell, there is no end. There is no future. There is no "time of waiting for it to end." In hell, there is no end.
If you are an eternal being, your choices are eternal-making. This happens the moment you are launched into eternity at death. Your final choice is what becomes your eternal choice forever. Thus eternal "punishment" is justified.
Then why are they doing public service then? Why do good if not to get "brownie points" for doing good? Christians serve God because it pleases him. Not for brownie points. Athiests serve people because ultimately they wish to feel good about themselves. This is still a choice between themselves and selfless love and sacrifice to God.
I would think Jesus telling the story of Lazarus and the rich man in hell would be graphic enough to desribe that the reality of hell is worse than any suffering on earth, because it is the rich man in hell who begs Lazarus in paradise to find a way to tell his family on earth to avoid this place that he now finds himself in, a reality as can only be described in human language as a perpetual torment (not torture) day and night, and like a writhing inside by a worm that does not die. I liken this to this understanding: any suffering on earth is tolerable because there is an end to the suffering. When faced with torment, the one being tormented knows there is a time when he will no longer be tormented. There is "relief" in hoping in the future. In hell, there is no end. There is no future. There is no "time of waiting for it to end." In hell, there is no end.
If you are an eternal being, your choices are eternal-making. This happens the moment you are launched into eternity at death. Your final choice is what becomes your eternal choice forever. Thus eternal "punishment" is justified.
Then why are they doing public service then? Why do good if not to get "brownie points" for doing good? Christians serve God because it pleases him. Not for brownie points. Athiests serve people because ultimately they wish to feel good about themselves. This is still a choice between themselves and selfless love and sacrifice to God.
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Why should I believe this? What evidence is there for this outside of the bible?
In a way, this sounds like threats, believe or else. This does not say anything to me about love.
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Originally posted by Othniel
Yet to those who received Him, to those who believed in His name, His gives the right to become children of God.
John 1:12
That in itself should be enough
Peace to all who seek it.
<><
I have read the book or Romans, and the rest of the bible. I find the book to be rather unconvincing.
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To have eternal life.
JN 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
JN 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
JN 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father.
JN 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
JN 6:48 I am the bread of life.
JN 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
JN 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
JN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
JN 6:52 The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
JN 6:53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
JN 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
JN 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
JN 6:56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him.
JN 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.
JN 6:58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever.
JN 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
JN 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
JN 3:2 the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him.
JN 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
JN 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
JN 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
JN 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
JN 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
JN 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
JN 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
JN 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?
JN 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
JN 3:12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?
JN 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, `even' the Son of man, who is in heaven.
JN 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
JN 3:15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
JN 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
JN 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This may help also.
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Catchup
Well-Known Member
In my heart I feel this thread has become distorted. We are making God out to be the god of hell...when truly that is Satan.
So lets get our facts straight!
God created us to live an eternity. That is a fact of creation. You are looking for God's LOVE? This is God's LOVE!! The fact...That we will never die, but instead can spend an eternity of bliss with him.
He also created us with free-will. This is another fact that can not be argued away. More of God's LOVE that you are seeking!!! The fact...That we are not merely puppets nor robots. He has allowed us to live our life as we choose. He could have chosen to make us bow to him. But instead he gives us LOVE and wants us to freely give him love in return.
So do not blame God! He is more than ready to accept you into his Kingdom! You will have eternal life...use your freewill and accept the offer and spend your eternity with God.
But please if you reject God, do it like a man!
Take the responsibility for your actions.
Just turn away if that is your choice.
But then be prepared, to greet eternity with the god of your choice ...Satan.
LOVE
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The Truth is: You are damned to hell because you've rejected God. Your impending death is the only proof of this you need.
The Love is: Christ will save you from that death if you will stop trying to save yourself. The Spirit is the only thing needed to testify to this. Without the Spirit of God inside you, the Bible is an empty book. Faith testifies all the proof you need.
If you're looking for us to argue you into faith, it won't happen. You must first open your heart to God, and then all will be made clear.
As to eternal punishment for finite sins...who says sin is finite? Is not hell simply the continuative nature of the eternal sin which we are born into and from which if we are not saved, we are doomed to inhabit?
Skepticism is unwillingness to believe.
For a wonderful description of hell and heaven (though not perfect of course) check out "The Great Divorce" by CS Lewis. Thoroughly enjoyable.
Peace to all who seek it.
The Love is: Christ will save you from that death if you will stop trying to save yourself. The Spirit is the only thing needed to testify to this. Without the Spirit of God inside you, the Bible is an empty book. Faith testifies all the proof you need.
If you're looking for us to argue you into faith, it won't happen. You must first open your heart to God, and then all will be made clear.
As to eternal punishment for finite sins...who says sin is finite? Is not hell simply the continuative nature of the eternal sin which we are born into and from which if we are not saved, we are doomed to inhabit?
Skepticism is unwillingness to believe.
For a wonderful description of hell and heaven (though not perfect of course) check out "The Great Divorce" by CS Lewis. Thoroughly enjoyable.
Peace to all who seek it.
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"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14
When one is determined not to believe, how can they expect to believe? If "evil" is your calling card, then what are you looking for? It would appear you have already made your decision.
Even so, it's never to late to repent, and I would encourage you to do so. Praise God and be saved.
Peace to all who seek it.
<><
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Originally posted by Catchup
My guess would be... because of the darkness in your soul.
I see God has Love and a promise of Eternity.
I see, and I can understand that. You see god as something, but others see this god as described in the bible as something else entirely.
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If you don't like having "evil" as your calling card, and don't want others to get the wrong impression from it, perhaps you might want to change it. I'm sorry if I offended you in my observations about how you present yourself to others in this forum. As a Christian, I am aware that everything I do affects how others respond to me. I think its a lesson that everyone should learn.
Because it is. In fact, its more than a threat, its a Righteous Judgement which God will carry out in His time. The Bible calls all men the enemies of God. When He looks at us, this is what He sees ---> Christ Himself calls us evil. For this excellent and completely valid reason, God is going to destroy us, but, in His love, He has offered a last chance for us to turn back and be saved. That chance, that Way, is Christ. Accept Him and you can stop being a and start being a 
, which is like a 
only far more enjoyable!
Peace to all who seek it.
<><
Because it is. In fact, its more than a threat, its a Righteous Judgement which God will carry out in His time. The Bible calls all men the enemies of God. When He looks at us, this is what He sees --->
Christ Himself calls us evil. For this excellent and completely valid reason, God is going to destroy us, but, in His love, He has offered a last chance for us to turn back and be saved. That chance, that Way, is Christ. Accept Him and you can stop being a and start being a , which is like a only far more enjoyable! Peace to all who seek it.
<><
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I was given this "title" by one of the forums members, I am evil, and my position is evil.
Because it is. In fact, its more than a threat, its a Righteous Judgement which God will carry out in His time. The Bible calls all men the enemies of God. When He looks at us, this is what He sees --->
Thank you for admitting that is it indeed a threat. The above is also basically your views on how god sees man as you gather from the bible. I can live with that. But, a threat is a threat is a threat, and love is not based upon fear, threats or coercion. There is no way I will say different. Also, how is it I am a
without christ? I am a very happy well adjusted complete person. In fact once I did leave the trappings of christianity and religion, I was a lot more at peace, and happy than ever before. I do realize that this statement I made here will not be taken at face value...sigh....
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