Why (Self) Identity Is Bad

Received

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Now that I have your attention. :)

I mean personal identity. To identify is to equate: 1 = 1. What are we equating with personal identity? The self with an idea (or an object, but this object is mediated by an idea).

It's a little screwy, but there are two selves that we know. One is consciousness, the other is a construct of qualities, characteristics, and such that we think make up "who we are," or what we can be in a definitive and historical sense. I am a white mental health counselor male, for example, but I'm also a lot of other things; the self can be defined according to a potentially infinite number of things, but in the most technical sense it can only be defined according to the qualities or actions the person has or is doing in the moment. I am only a fisherman when I'm fishing, and at other times when I identify as this I'm creating something that doesn't exist, even if I'm positive that I'll be fishing in an hour. For some reason we still consider ourselves as those things or actions that we're not even doing, so long as we plan on doing them in the future.

Sam Harris encapsulates Sartre's position on the self by saying:

Our encounters with other people constitute the primal circumstance of self-formation...[E]ach of us is perpetually in the position of a voyeur who, while gazing upon the object of his lust, suddenly hears the sound of someone stepping up directly behind him.​

This is an insanely profound point, and you can try this experiment yourself to see how the self (as an idea) blooms into awareness from a previous selfless sense of experience of whatever once you get a sense that someone else is looking at you, especially if it's something you're not supposed to be doing. That's the self as identity, not the self of consciousness -- the self which it's impossible to become self-conscious of, just as (according to Alan Watts) it's impossible to bite your own teeth. The self-as-idea comes upon you (consciousness) as an idea when you get the sense that you're not alone.

But there's a problem. If the self identifies itself with an idea, and in the process becomes an idea, this means that to the degree that the idea becomes threatened is also the degree to which the self is threatened. We feel attacked when the idea with which we identify is attacked, and there goes our happiness given the sense of loss that comes with this attack. This is why people become angry when someone attacks an ideal they have attached themselves to, or why many become depressed when the idea they have of themselves (their potential selves) are out of reach or inaccessible. It's also a supreme reason why people don't just change their minds when evidence or reasoning comes their way: they have identified with the idea they seek to defend. That's the whole meaning behind saying a person "identifies" with any specific belief: they attach their self (as idea) with the idea they believe in. Weirdly enough, the self becomes the belief it (as consciousness) defends.

Underneath all this all the while is the self as consciousness. Nobody considers this guy because he's very much the lens through which all other things are considered. Is it possible to identify with our consciousness only? That would mean that we identify with nothing, because consciousness is ultimately nothing, no-thing in an objective sense, and it's always the consciousness (subject) that objectifies everything else, except other subjects (but that's a complicated discussion).

Okay then, next step. Perhaps it's possible to identify with nothing, but that would take a lifetime of discipline and possibly defeat, given that our natural inclination might be to continually be identifying with things. The discipline we should develop, then, is how to realize that the things we identify with ultimately aren't who we are in a heavy sense, but are just like clothes we wear on any given day, loosely attached to ourselves but ultimately not ourselves, items we can and should cycle through and discard as much as possible to remind us of this fact. One trick would be to identify ourselves with as many things as possible rather than putting arbitrary emphasis on one or two big important things. We learn to identify ourselves as readers, writers, people who love Fall weather and disc golf, rather than identifying ourselves primarily with our careers or anything big that can be realistically taken away. That's what happened to me a few months ago: I had to take sick leave again to dabble with medications because my symptoms were making the strenuous concentration involved in counseling impossible at times, and I went through spurts of anger and depression because, after all, I'm a counselor, and what am I supposed to do or be if I can't be that? It only took a week to realize that I love reading and learning, love playing guitar, even if I don't place a heavy emphasis on these things. I realized that identifying myself with my career is silly, because there's more to life than identifying. I realized that "counselor" was an idea just as learned and contingent as anything else.

Or maybe that's it: that by constantly reminding ourselves that we're not anything or any action but qualitatively more as the elusive sense of consciousness that underlies it, we can gain relief from realizing that we're not being attacked or threatened when any of these ideas are also attacked or threatened. This is part of why the ideal of self-transcendence is so valued: because it helps us get beyond this false sense of self as identity and really enjoy the world.
 
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SkyWriting

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I mean personal identity. To identify is to equate: 1 = 1. What are we equating with personal identity? The self with an idea (or an object, but this object is mediated by an idea).

The best theory I've heard involves quantum entanglement.
The idea goes that our cells stem from an entangled field
and so as the cells divide they each remain entangled
similar to identical twins. The result is that each cell in
your brain is "aware" of all of its fellow brain cells and so
information, to some extent, is instantly communicated.

Some research has been done on this showing that
brain responses are occurring faster than light speed.
 
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Davian

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The best theory I've heard involves quantum entanglement.
The idea goes that our cells stem from an entangled field
and so as the cells divide they each remain entangled
similar to identical twins. The result is that each cell in
your brain is "aware" of all of its fellow brain cells and so
information, to some extent, is instantly communicated.

Some research has been done on this showing that
brain responses are occurring faster than light speed.
Faster than light speed? Do you have scientific citations for that, or only speculation?
 
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nebulaJP

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Now that I have your attention. :)

I mean personal identity. To identify is to equate: 1 = 1. What are we equating with personal identity? The self with an idea (or an object, but this object is mediated by an idea).

It's a little screwy, but there are two selves that we know. One is consciousness, the other is a construct of qualities, characteristics, and such that we think make up "who we are," or what we can be in a definitive and historical sense. I am a white mental health counselor male, for example, but I'm also a lot of other things; the self can be defined according to a potentially infinite number of things, but in the most technical sense it can only be defined according to the qualities or actions the person has or is doing in the moment. I am only a fisherman when I'm fishing, and at other times when I identify as this I'm creating something that doesn't exist, even if I'm positive that I'll be fishing in an hour. For some reason we still consider ourselves as those things or actions that we're not even doing, so long as we plan on doing them in the future.

Sam Harris encapsulates Sartre's position on the self by saying:

Our encounters with other people constitute the primal circumstance of self-formation...[E]ach of us is perpetually in the position of a voyeur who, while gazing upon the object of his lust, suddenly hears the sound of someone stepping up directly behind him.​

This is an insanely profound point, and you can try this experiment yourself to see how the self (as an idea) blooms into awareness from a previous selfless sense of experience of whatever once you get a sense that someone else is looking at you, especially if it's something you're not supposed to be doing. That's the self as identity, not the self of consciousness -- the self which it's impossible to become self-conscious of, just as (according to Alan Watts) it's impossible to bite your own teeth. The self-as-idea comes upon you (consciousness) as an idea when you get the sense that you're not alone.

But there's a problem. If the self identifies itself with an idea, and in the process becomes an idea, this means that to the degree that the idea becomes threatened is also the degree to which the self is threatened. We feel attacked when the idea with which we identify is attacked, and there goes our happiness given the sense of loss that comes with this attack. This is why people become angry when someone attacks an ideal they have attached themselves to, or why many become depressed when the idea they have of themselves (their potential selves) are out of reach or inaccessible. It's also a supreme reason why people don't just change their minds when evidence or reasoning comes their way: they have identified with the idea they seek to defend. That's the whole meaning behind saying a person "identifies" with any specific belief: they attach their self (as idea) with the idea they believe in. Weirdly enough, the self becomes the belief it (as consciousness) defends.

Underneath all this all the while is the self as consciousness. Nobody considers this guy because he's very much the lens through which all other things are considered. Is it possible to identify with our consciousness only? That would mean that we identify with nothing, because consciousness is ultimately nothing, no-thing in an objective sense, and it's always the consciousness (subject) that objectifies everything else, except other subjects (but that's a complicated discussion).

Okay then, next step. Perhaps it's possible to identify with nothing, but that would take a lifetime of discipline and possibly defeat, given that our natural inclination might be to continually be identifying with things. The discipline we should develop, then, is how to realize that the things we identify with ultimately aren't who we are in a heavy sense, but are just like clothes we wear on any given day, loosely attached to ourselves but ultimately not ourselves, items we can and should cycle through and discard as much as possible to remind us of this fact. One trick would be to identify ourselves with as many things as possible rather than putting arbitrary emphasis on one or two big important things. We learn to identify ourselves as readers, writers, people who love Fall weather and disc golf, rather than identifying ourselves primarily with our careers or anything big that can be realistically taken away. That's what happened to me a few months ago: I had to take sick leave again to dabble with medications because my symptoms were making the strenuous concentration involved in counseling impossible at times, and I went through spurts of anger and depression because, after all, I'm a counselor, and what am I supposed to do or be if I can't be that? It only took a week to realize that I love reading and learning, love playing guitar, even if I don't place a heavy emphasis on these things. I realized that identifying myself with my career is silly, because there's more to life than identifying. I realized that "counselor" was an idea just as learned and contingent as anything else.

Or maybe that's it: that by constantly reminding ourselves that we're not anything or any action but qualitatively more as the elusive sense of consciousness that underlies it, we can gain relief from realizing that we're not being attacked or threatened when any of these ideas are also attacked or threatened. This is part of why the ideal of self-transcendence is so valued: because it helps us get beyond this false sense of self as identity and really enjoy the world.


I agree with all of this but I am wondering how it is compatible with Christianity. Doesn't this basically say that the individual, separate, qualitative identity known as "Jesus Christ" is only an idea that only exists in the exact moment that it is being thought of? And aren't Christians supposed to completely center themselves on the object of Jesus Christ (identify themselves with Christ?). Christianity doesn't seem to allow regarding mental objects, such as "sin" or "Christ" to be mere mental constructs. Instead, it seems to me that in Christianity, these mental objects must be regarded as continuous, self-existent things, somehow existing separately from momentary awareness.
 
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Chriliman

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I think of the self similarly as I think of a river. A process rather than a thing.

God's got you covered there, if only you would listen.

Isaiah 48:17,18
"I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go. If only you had paid attention to my commands, your peace would have been like a river."

Isaiah 66:12
"I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees."

If we ignore the fact that the bible already addresses many of the philosophical concepts we wrestle with today, then we risk missing out on important truths that could change our lives for the better, giving us peace like a flowing river, instead of chaos like an irrupting volcano.
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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What do you mean by that? Could you explain a bit further?

In the Old Law, there is a dress and grooming code. This was a discipline that the ultra orthodox still hold to today, and the reason for it is to keep unique identity controlled. When one individualizes their self, they set themselves apart from other. This becomes adversarial- it's part of the Fall altogether where pride and vanity took over.
 
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quatona

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God's got you covered there, if only you would listen.
If you want to turn this into just another apologetics thread, please get that sorted with Received.

Isaiah 48:17,18
"I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go. If only you had paid attention to my commands, your peace would have been like a river."

Isaiah 66:12
"I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees."
That´s totally unrelated to what I said, but I will readily admit that the word "river" appears there, too.

If we ignore the fact that the bible already addresses many of the philosophical concepts we wrestle with today, then we risk missing out on important truths that could change our lives for the better, giving us peace like a flowing river, instead of chaos like an irrupting volcano.
I wish you guys the best of luck with that.
 
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fat wee robin

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The best theory I've heard involves quantum entanglement.
The idea goes that our cells stem from an entangled field
and so as the cells divide they each remain entangled
similar to identical twins. The result is that each cell in
your brain is "aware" of all of its fellow brain cells and so
information, to some extent, is instantly communicated.
That's it exactly ; I have always seen myself as a tangled weave of
Icecream cones ,mixed with Jelly babies , and now I know that the purpose of
my existence, is to be in some loony's stomach gazing at my navel from inside .
:tutu::tutu:PHILOSOPHY IS :swoon::swoon::swoon::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch:

Some research has been done on this showing that
brain responses are occurring faster than light speed.
 
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Received

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I think of the self similarly as I think of a river. A process rather than a thing.

I think of that as the self as consciousness. The other self -- the self that most people associate with a self -- isn't even fluid. It's just a bundle of qualities, an idea that collects all other ideas about it.
 
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SkyWriting

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That's it exactly ; I have always seen myself as a tangled weave of Ice cream cones ,mixed with Jelly babies , and now I know that the purpose of
my existence, is to be in some loony's stomach gazing at my navel from inside .

It relates to the measured ability of the brain to be aware of itself.
Not so much your normal late night snacking.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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In the Old Law, there is a dress and grooming code. This was a discipline that the ultra orthodox still hold to today, and the reason for it is to keep unique identity controlled. When one individualizes their self, they set themselves apart from other. This becomes adversarial- it's part of the Fall altogether where pride and vanity took over.

OTOH there's something to be said in favor of being your own person, not overly influenced by convention.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I think there's probably a reason that God never says "Just be yourself". I more often hear him saying "Be more like me".

Being more like God sets one apart from others more than anything else.
 
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