Why secularism?

Ignatius the Kiwi

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It might help me understand if you would mention some particular issues you have in mind. What values are no longer respected by the wider society?

One of the more prominent ones that comes to mind is Sexual values. They have moved decidedly into a libertine direction where we are told as long as we don't physically hurt someone any sexual act is fine. It's not that we don't have sexual values but they have certainty not anything approaching the Christian sexual ethic of yesteryear.

It's also not that we lack values. If I said that before I'll clarify now. It's that the values have morphed into something wholly unchristian. Hence, why should the Christian abide by those secular values which are becoming more and more unacceptable. I've seen people argue that you shouldn't be a doctor if you won't perform an abortion. I've seen secularists gladly seek to impose on Christians their standards of non-discrimination. We've seen in the USA many attempts to get people fired for positions which were regarded as normal but now are considered taboo, like the firefox CEO.
 
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Speedwell

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One of the more prominent ones that comes to mind is Sexual values. They have moved decidedly into a libertine direction where we are told as long as we don't physically hurt someone any sexual act is fine. It's not that we don't have sexual values but they have certainty not anything approaching the Christian sexual ethic of yesteryear.

It's also not that we lack values. If I said that before I'll clarify now. It's that the values have morphed into something wholly unchristian. Hence, why should the Christian abide by those secular values which are becoming more and more unacceptable. I've seen people argue that you shouldn't be a doctor if you won't perform an abortion. I've seen secularists gladly seek to impose on Christians their standards of non-discrimination. We've seen in the USA many attempts to get people fired for positions which were regarded as normal but now are considered taboo, like the firefox CEO.
So basically it's the sex stuff, rather than fundamental Christians values, and having to tolerate the presence of sexual behavior you disapprove of in the larger society.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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So basically it's the sex stuff, rather than fundamental Christians values, and having to tolerate the presence of sexual behavior you disapprove of in the larger society.

Curious that you don't contradict what I say. Am I wrong or am I right that we have embraced a fundamentally non Christian idea of how society ought to be governed? Think not from your own secular bias, but as a Christian would. Has secularism been beneficial to the advance of the Gospel in the western world or has it been detrimental? It has obviously been detrimental.

There is a more insidious notion which you appealed to earlier, namely the cult of diversity in all it's forms is somehow an inherent good. Diversity or equality for that matter are not the gods progressives have made them out to be. That would be a second example. There are others we could go into but do I really need to point out how we have abandoned ideas that would have been universally accepted earlier?

So I gotta ask, what's your argument here? What's the point of this line of questioning? Why should I as a Christian embrace your secularism? So far, i see no reasons given.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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You shouldn’t be discriminatory?

I had in mind the Jack Phillips thread and the more recent example of a man who claims he is a woman wanting to force real women to wax his private parts. In my mind it was entirely legitimate for Jack Phillips to refuse to make a cake and for these women to not touch a man's genitals.

In minds of progressives, in order to promote equality and non-discrimination, they are perfectly content with forcing parties to do what they don't want to do.

There are also efforts in countries to bring about Euthanasia and abortion more effectively and force doctors to recommend clinics that provide euthanasia/abortion if the doctor is unwilling to perform it him/herself.

To me these individuals have every right to discriminate in this manner.
 
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Speedwell

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Curious that you don't contradict what I say. Am I wrong or am I right that we have embraced a fundamentally non Christian idea of how society ought to be governed?
You haven't addressed the issue except to say that the government should impose your idea of correct sexual behavior by force. Is that your Christian idea of how society should be governed?
Think not from your own secular bias, but as a Christian would. Has secularism been beneficial to the advance of the Gospel in the western world or has it been detrimental? It has obviously been detrimental.
It certainly seems to have been beneficial. It's much easier to preach the Gospel in the secular West where religious diversity is tolerated than in, say, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

There is a more insidious notion which you appealed to earlier, namely the cult of diversity in all it's forms is somehow an inherent good. Diversity or equality for that matter are not the gods progressives have made them out to be.
It is certainly better than a narrow and intolerant theocracy, which is what you seem to be advocating.

So what's your argument here? Why should I as a Christian embrace your secularism?
Because it allows you the freedom to carry out the Great Commission.
 
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Percivale

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Doctors being required to perform abortions or bakers being required to design cakes for gay weddings are examples of liberals ignoring the values of pluralism and freedom. Why should Christians validate that by doing the same thing in the opposite direction?
 
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RDKirk

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See, that’s the thing right there, this works best with the government’s help. It may be necessary to rewrite some laws or even parts of the Constitution.

But it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make, you know?

I'm amazed at how thoroughly Catholics today have forgotten the difficulties of their own history in America.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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You haven't addressed the issue except to say that the government should impose your idea of correct sexual behavior by force. Is that your Christian idea of how society should be governed? It certainly seems to have been beneficial. It's much easier to preach the Gospel in the secular West where religious diversity is tolerated than in, say, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

A society where Christianity is the dominant cultural guiding force, which informs law and civic duty still seems more beneficial to Christendom than a secular society which governs itself on different principles. Bringing up the examples of Islamic countries seems pointless since we know how intolerant Islam is of any competition. I also haven't suggested anything governments ought to do. Not my place. I am only critiquing the idea of secularism from a Christian perspective, that it has not been beneficial to the Christian west. Something I do not think you can deny.

It is certainly better than a narrow and intolerant theocracy, which is what you seem to be advocating.

I'm not demanding a Theocracy. Most Christian kingdoms were not Theocracies and nor does a Christian ordered society demand it be one. The secular has always had a place within Christian societies. My problem is with the idea of total secularism free from restraints.

Because it allows you the freedom to carry out the Great Commission.
.

It allows for the freedom to carry out the great commission, but it is not conducive to it and the ideals of a Christian society nor has it resulted in the preservation of Christendom in the national consciences of many nations. So why is it a superior choice for Christianity?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Doctors being required to perform abortions or bakers being required to design cakes for gay weddings are examples of liberals ignoring the values of pluralism and freedom. Why should Christians validate that by doing the same thing in the opposite direction?

One, because then Christians cede all of their political power and cultural power to the secularists who will not stop. Two, pluralism and freedom are not Christian values. The latter is a value insofar as we are freed from sin, not in our toleration of peoples sins.
 
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RDKirk

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A society where Christianity is the dominant cultural guiding force, which informs law and civic duty still seems more beneficial to Christendom than a secular society which governs itself on different principles.

The fact that Jesus says it's not gonna happen in this fallen world implies that attempts to make it happen anyway would be counterproductive.

And that has proven, in fact, to have been the result.
 
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Speedwell

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One, because then Christians cede all of their political power and cultural power to the secularists who will not stop. Two, pluralism and freedom are not Christian values. The latter is a value insofar as we are freed from sin, not in our toleration of peoples sins.
Christians have just as much political power in this country as anyone else. And the Christian's duty is not to impose some right-wingers idea of "Christian culture" but to preach the Gospel.
 
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Desk trauma

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Has secularism been beneficial to the advance of the Gospel in the western world or has it been detrimental?
Beneficial. The US population is far more religious than the population of European states with official churches and state support of religion.
 
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Desk trauma

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I'm amazed at how thoroughly Catholics today have forgotten the difficulties of their own history in America.
It happens to all religious groups once they are no longer on the receiving end of the equation.
 
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One of the more prominent ones that comes to mind is Sexual values. They have moved decidedly into a libertine direction where we are told as long as we don't physically hurt someone any sexual act is fine. It's not that we don't have sexual values but they have certainty not anything approaching the Christian sexual ethic of yesteryear.

That’s the thing about individual liberty, people get to use it in ways you disapprove of but that in no way changes that you’re free to form your own views.
 
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Nithavela

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As long as you are aware that non Christians have the right to stand against you in that endeavour.
I suggest a death match with spiked boxing gloves to settle this matter.

I mean, you could use swords, but I feel that's been done already.
 
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Nithavela

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So basically it's the sex stuff, rather than fundamental Christians values, and having to tolerate the presence of sexual behavior you disapprove of in the larger society.
It always boils down to sex with conservatives.
 
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ThievingMagpie

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Psalms 9:17 says, “The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, and so do all the nations that forget God.” If nations forget God, or in other words embrace secularism and forgo godliness, they will “go down to the realm of the dead,” meaning they will face the wrath of God.

Like they say in English, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are deceived people who believe secularism for nations is a good thing. But scripture is clear that nations that don’t embrace God will be led astray and into the infernal depths of hell.

Let’s bring God back to society and quit thinking secularism is some sort of civic virtue.

Whenever religious groups get to wield Government power, people tend to bleed. It's usually the suppression of other religious groups but also tends to happen to those with the "wrong brand" of whatever the dominant religion is. I'll take not getting blown up by a nail bomb over your desire to police people's bedrooms if that's alright.
 
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Larniavc

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To me these individuals have every right to discriminate in this manne
I agree.

However if you enter into a profession which provides a service for the public you give up that right.

I find child molesters abhorrent but have to work with them because it is my job to.
 
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