Why Satan is clearly not "bound" yet.

[Jan001]

I..

I just...

I see that you do not understand that the fall of Satan and of the angels who followed him happened before the book of Revelation was written and yet this fall from grace was recorded in John's visions. This was a historical event and not a future event.

The visions in the Book of Revelation are not all in chronological order. Just as there are several different accounts of the one crucifixion and the one resurrection of Jesus Christ in the gospels, there are also multiple accounts in the Bible describing Satan's and his followers' fall from grace.

Revelation 12:3-4
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. nkjv​

Revelation 12:7-8
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. nkjv

Luke 10:18
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. nkjv

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, nkjv

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; nkjv










​

 

[Jan001]

What I am interested in is what Paul taught and what his first generation believed. Did you ever hear of the "dark ages?" Almost all knowledge of the truth of the word of God was lost. It was DARK spiritually. The Catholic church at that time was the only church, and they taught almost NO TRUTH.

Truth and light of God's word began a couple hundred years before Martin Luther, but those men were burned at the stake. Finally Martin Luther came, and they did not catch him or roast him. The truth that salvation came by faith in God's word alone, and nothing else, was finally back, and it will NEVER be lost again.

Among the number of born again people in the world, most are evangelical and Pentecostal, while those that believe as you do are are becoming more and more a minority. In case you have not noticed, most of the old denominations are almost DEAD.

LAMAD

Martin Luther taught that infant baptism was necessary to forgive Adam's sin on the soul of the infant. Many of the early Protestant denominations believed in infant baptism for this same reason.

There was no "NT Bible" when the apostles taught on earth. God's word was taught by word and by example. It was not until about 400 A.D. that both the Christian OT Scriptures and NT Scriptures were finalized at Church Councils. And, it was not until the 15th century that the common man could obtain his own personal copy of these Scriptures and this was due to the invention of the printing press.

With over 1 billion (1.21 billion counted in 2011) baptized Catholics world-wide, I'd say that Catholicism is not almost dead. Most of these Catholics, unfortunately, are Catholics in name only which will not help them to attain eternal life. Water Baptism (becoming born again) does not guarantee eternal life. It gives a person hope of attaining eternal life. The first hurdle of the race to win the crown of eternal life is to be water baptized which makes a person spiritually born again. If this born again person perseveres in imitating Jesus' obedience to His Father's commandments until he dies, he will then receive the crown of eternal life.

The Dark Age is a myth perpetuated by people ignorant of the truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMruPz7Si-w

You said:

What I am interested in is what Paul taught and what his first generation believed.

By reading the letters of the early church leaders you can easily find out what the early church preached and practiced. Baptism forgives both Adam's sin and also all the personal sins (if any exist) on the person's soul at the time of his baptism. Here are a couple of examples of early Church teaching:

"For He came to save all through means of Himself--all, I say, who through Him are born again to God--infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 (A.D. 180). ​

"Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous." Origen, Homily on Leviticus, 8:3 (post A.D. 244). ​

 

[Jan001]

HA! Praise the Lord, He is indeed GOOD! The bible is written so a beginning reader could understand and become born again. Yet, it stymies some with doctorate degrees.

LAMAD

Have you not noticed that beginning readers do not agree with each other about Christian doctrines? I'd say that they do not understand what they are reading.

Acts 8:30-31
So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. nkjv
​

 

[Jan001]

Ever hear of Smith Wigglesworth? Would you call a man "untaught" in the Word of God that raised 19 people from the dead?

Ever hear of John G Lake? How about T.L. Osborn, a man that up until Reinhard Bonnke preached face to face with more people that any human who has ever lived. I guess you would call these men unlearned in the word of God, yet miracles flowed in their ministries, and untold millions came to God.

LAMAD

The gift of healing is not necessarily dependent upon a healer's understanding of the Scriptures.

It can be dependent upon a person's faith for his own healing or else it can be dependent upon the faith of the one(s) praying for the healing of this other person or else it is simply a gift of God's mercy and love.

I would not say that these men you named were ignorant about all the Scriptures. But, did they agree with each other about all the doctrines which they each believed they understood correctly? I doubt it.

 

[Shocker]

I see that you do not understand that the fall of Satan and of the angels who followed him happened before the book of Revelation was written and yet this fall from grace was recorded in John's visions. This was a historical event and not a future event.

The visions in the Book of Revelation are not all in chronological order. Just as there are several different accounts of the one crucifixion and the one resurrection of Jesus Christ in the gospels, there are also multiple accounts in the Bible describing Satan's and his followers' fall from grace.

Revelation 12:3-4
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. nkjv​

Revelation 12:7-8
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. nkjv

Luke 10:18
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. nkjv

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, nkjv

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; nkjv​

Satan fell a very very long time ago, long before God incarnated in Jesus Christ.

But as we understand, satan is not a human, and therefore is not bound to earth alone, he has indeed fallen from grace, but he has yet to be "cast out" of heaven.

That would mean he has no access to heaven and that hasn't happened yet.

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

NLT
Joh 14:30 "I don't have much more time to talk to you, because the ruler of this world approaches. He has no power over Me,

Satan "fell" long before the Christian church existed.

Satan is the god of this world, presumably, he still has access to heaven.

Eph_6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

NLT
Eph 6:12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.


Rev_12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


So we have two different events.

Fall
πίπτω, πέτω
piptō petō
pip'-to, pet'-o
The first is a reduplicated and contracted form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally of figuratively): - fail, fall (down), light on.


Throw or cast down
βάλλω
ballō
bal'-lo
A primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): - arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare G4496.



If you are going to throw verses at me, make sure it supports your understanding.

 

[iamlamad]

I see that you do not understand that the fall of Satan and of the angels who followed him happened before the book of Revelation was written and yet this fall from grace was recorded in John's visions. This was a historical event and not a future event.

The visions in the Book of Revelation are not all in chronological order. Just as there are several different accounts of the one crucifixion and the one resurrection of Jesus Christ in the gospels, there are also multiple accounts in the Bible describing Satan's and his followers' fall from grace.

Revelation 12:3-4
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. nkjv​

Revelation 12:7-8
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. nkjv

Luke 10:18
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. nkjv

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, nkjv

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; nkjv
​

Sorry, the fall of Satan in Rev. 12:3-4 happened before Adam was created, while his fall recorded in Rev. 12:7-8, is still future. After this coming fall happens he will NO LONGER be the "prince of the power of the air." He will lose his wings!

In Luke 10:18, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven," one MUST consider the context. Something dramatic had just happened that had not EVER happened on the planet before. The previous verse says, "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."

When 70 people began doing the works of Jesus, and casting out devils, Satan had to come and see for himself. Jesus saw him coming down from his "high places."

LAMAD
​

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 466:

Sorry, the fall of Satan in Rev. 12:3-4 happened before Adam was created, while his fall recorded in Rev. 12:7-8, is still future.

Regarding "his fall recorded in Rev. 12:7-8, is still future", that's right, Revelation 12:7-9 hasn't happened yet, but is part of the things that must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1b).

Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what he saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).

Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).

For before Revelation 12:7-9 happens, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when the army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

It's at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of the 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 466:

Sorry, the fall of Satan in Rev. 12:3-4 happened before Adam was created, while his fall recorded in Rev. 12:7-8, is still future.

Regarding "the fall of Satan in Rev. 12:3-4 happened before Adam was created", note that nothing requires that there was any fall of Satan before Adam was created. For Satan, a literal, 7-headed, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, perhaps even as one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven and take rule over all the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, he will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering that he knows he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a future war in heaven at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an alien, but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence wholly beyond this evil, material universe".

He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We didn't start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced that he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

"YHWH said that he had created a physical universe, which to us was like what you today would call a virtual reality, like the ones you currently create using computers. And he said that we could enter this universe and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you today would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies today when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities you create with computers.

"But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said that in order to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so that while we were in his universe each of us would think that all we were were physical entities within his material universe; we would completely forget that we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

"When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma, how could we ever notify you of our wishes when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw was not enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he'd not yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device.

"But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping them, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever".

The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), for it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist) for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[shturt678s]

IIPet.2:4 & Jude 6, the wicked angels did lose their "principality" belonging to them even before the "fall."

Rev.12:7, Lk.10:18 & Jn.12:31, Satan's utter defeat at the Cross, ie, lost his power of "accusing our brethren before God."

Old Jack

 

[Shocker]

IIPet.2:4 & Jude 6, the wicked angels did lose their "principality" belonging to them even before the "fall."

Rev.12:7, Lk.10:18 & Jn.12:31, Satan's utter defeat at the Cross, ie, lost his power of "accusing our brethren before God."

Old Jack

Something you are saying doesn't fit with what Jesus said, regarding satan.

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Also, Satan is cast out of heaven in Revelation, whereas he fell long before that.

The Greek, as Ive shown you gives us two different understandings between "fell" and "cast out".

 

[Shocker]

Fall

πίπτω, πέτω
piptō petō
pip'-to, pet'-o
The first is a reduplicated and contracted form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally of figuratively): - fail, fall (down), light on.

 

[shturt678s]

Something you are saying doesn't fit with what Jesus said, regarding satan.

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Before the Cross, ie, the disciples are to understand this, and are to know that Jesus is freely laying down His life by allowing Satan's plans to proceed.

Also, Satan is cast out of heaven in Revelation, whereas he fell long before that.

Satan wasn't conquered until the Cross, ie, before creation (IIPet.2:4), Satan and his angels only lost their own glorious habittion with God. Before the Cross Satan could accuse the brethren before God, ie, not after the Cross.

The Greek, as Ive shown you gives us two different understandings between "fell" and "cast out".

Context trumps grammar as you already understand.

Old Jack,

btw lost his "habitation" and "was thrown" are the two different understandings.

 

[Jan001]

Satan fell a very very long time ago, long before God incarnated in Jesus Christ.

But as we understand, satan is not a human, and therefore is not bound to earth alone, he has indeed fallen from grace, but he has yet to be "cast out" of heaven.

That would mean he has no access to heaven and that hasn't happened yet.

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

NLT
Joh 14:30 "I don't have much more time to talk to you, because the ruler of this world approaches. He has no power over Me,

Satan "fell" long before the Christian church existed.

Satan is the god of this world, presumably, he still has access to heaven.

Eph_6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

NLT
Eph 6:12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.


Rev_12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


So we have two different events.

Fall
πίπτω, πέτω
piptō petō
pip'-to, pet'-o
The first is a reduplicated and contracted form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally of figuratively): - fail, fall (down), light on.


Throw or cast down
βάλλω
ballō
bal'-lo
A primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): - arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare G4496.



If you are going to throw verses at me, make sure it supports your understanding.

I agree that Satan "fell" before the Christian Church existed, even before mankind existed. However, I believe that Satan's powers were chained (held back) by the power and the graces merited by the death of Jesus Christ and that he will remain chained until shortly before Jesus' second coming. (He could already be unchained right now if Jesus' return is soon to happen.) Jesus Christ is ruling in heaven right now at the right hand of God along with His saints who rose from the dead at the first resurrection. Jesus will reign with these saints there until it is time for Him to return with them to earth for His second and final coming/appearing.

Acts 5:31
Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. nkjv
​

1 Corinthians 15:25
For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. nkjv​

Nothing imperfect or impure may enter into God's presence in the third heaven and this includes Satan. As a result of Jesus' death, Satan's personal demonic powers were chained "for a thousand years." This "thousand years" is also "the times of the Gentiles" time period (in which we now live). However, there are many other devils/demons which then and now roam the earth seeking to devour souls and they are under orders from their leader, Satan.

These same "thousand years" that Satan is bound is also the "thousand years" time period that Jesus Christ reigns in heaven (He is reigning there right now) with the saints who rose from the dead at the time of the first resurrection (which actually already happened about two thousand years ago). A thousand years is symbolic for a long time. This "thousand years" time period is simply the time period between Jesus' first coming and His second coming and so the people on earth right now are actually living in this "thousand years" time period and we Christians are eagerly looking forward to His second coming.

Satan's full power was thwarted (I think he was literally somehow chained/imprisoned in hell) so that the gospel, without Satan's personal direct interference, could spread throughout the whole world as commanded by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ with all His saints will return to earth for those in His Church who are still alive on earth after the Great Tribulation, to take them back with Him for the great white throne (last) judgment.

Since God is everywhere, Satan does not literally have to be in the third heaven in order to accuse the brethren before (in the presence of) God. He can even be in hell while he is accusing the brethren and God will still hear and see him.

Revelation 12:8-12
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. nkjv
​

This event happened before mankind was created.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” nkjv

​

The kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ came at the exact moment that Jesus Christ died on the cross. Satan was cast down into hell and chained there at the same exact time that Jesus Christ died on the cross.

Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, nkjv
​

However, the devil named Satan had already come down to earth when he was violently cast out of heaven. (He fell like lightning which means it was a violent event.) Satan was already on earth before Adam and Eve were created and he remained on earth until Jesus chained him in hell at the time of His sacrificial death on the cross. When Satan is loosed from his chains shortly before Jesus returns for His second coming, he will again return to earth where he will do his best to steal souls from Jesus Christ.

 

[Shocker]

Before the Cross, ie, the disciples are to understand this, and are to know that Jesus is freely laying down His life by allowing Satan's plans to proceed.



Satan wasn't conquered until the Cross, ie, before creation (IIPet.2:4), Satan and his angels only lost their own glorious habittion with God. Before the Cross Satan could accuse the brethren before God, ie, not after the Cross.



Context trumps grammar as you already understand.

Old Jack,

btw lost his "habitation" and "was thrown" are the two different understandings.

Jack, satan is not "bound" from traveling from earth to heaven.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


These verses below are parallels, and independent of what Lucifers fall was.

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 

[Jan001]

Sorry, the fall of Satan in Rev. 12:3-4 happened before Adam was created, while his fall recorded in Rev. 12:7-8, is still future. After this coming fall happens he will NO LONGER be the "prince of the power of the air." He will lose his wings!

In Luke 10:18, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven," one MUST consider the context. Something dramatic had just happened that had not EVER happened on the planet before. The previous verse says, "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."

When 70 people began doing the works of Jesus, and casting out devils, Satan had to come and see for himself. Jesus saw him coming down from his "high places."

LAMAD​

Satan has already been "cast down" twice. He has already "fallen" twice.

Satan was cast down from heaven to earth before mankind was created and he was cast down from earth into hell into chains when Jesus died on the cross. Both Rev. 12:3-4 and Rev. 12:7-8 record the first fall of Satan from heaven to earth. They give different details of the same exact event.

 

[Shocker]

Satan was cast down from heaven to earth before mankind was created.

No where in the Bible does it say this^^^^

Man and beast were created on the same day. (6)


Revelation is a book about the "Revealing", "uncovering", the "appearance", the coming of Christ and the events that surround it


Satan is cast out of heaven because satan has access to both the earth, and heaven.

satan is not "bound" from traveling from earth to heaven.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:



As you can see, satan has indeed fallen from grace, but that doesn't mean he was "cast out of heaven". That is a future prophecy.

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev_12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[Jan001]

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

"The prince of this world [Satan] cometh".... In other words, Jesus' remaining days on earth are now few in number and so He will not be teaching them (talking with them) much longer and this is because Satan will soon incite the Jewish leaders to have Jesus killed by the Gentiles.

 

[Shocker]

"The prince of this world [Satan] cometh".... In other words, Jesus' remaining days on earth are now few in number and so He will not be teaching them (talking with them) much longer and this is because Satan will soon incite the Jewish leaders to have Jesus killed by the Gentiles.

Read the verse again, this time, in a modern vernacular.

This has nothing to do with "Jewish leaders" having Jesus killed by the Gentiles.

It was the Pharisees who condemned Christ, Pilate didn't even want to crucify Jesus. He found nothing that he was guilty of.

Joh 14:30 "I don't have much more time to talk to you, because the ruler of this world approaches. He has no power over Me,

The ESV also presents a rather unique insight into this verse as well.

Joh 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,

 

[Jan001]

No where in the Bible does it say this^^^^

Man and beast were created on the same day. (6)


Revelation is a book about the "Revealing", "uncovering", the "appearance", the coming of Christ and the events that surround it


Satan is cast out of heaven because satan has access to both the earth, and heaven.

satan is not "bound" from traveling from earth to heaven.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:



As you can see, satan has indeed fallen from grace, but that doesn't mean he was "cast out of heaven". That is a future prophecy.

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev_12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The Book of Revelation also reveals past history.

Once someone is cast out of heaven, he does not ever re-enter!

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; nkjv
​

Like I said before, Satan was cast down from earth into hell and chained there at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. Some other fallen angels were already chained in darkness at the time of their fall from grace, but Satan was not chained in hell until Jesus died on the cross. Satan will continue to rule over his followers and his earthly kingdom from hell until he is loosed to return to earth for the final battle between good and evil.
​

 

[Shocker]

The Book of Revelation also reveals past history.

Once someone is cast out of heaven, he does not ever re-enter!

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; nkjv
​

Like I said before, Satan was cast down from earth into hell and chained there at the time of Jesus' death on the cross. Some other fallen angels were already chained in darkness at the time of their fall from grace, but Satan was not chained in hell until Jesus died on the cross. Satan will continue to rule over his followers and his earthly kingdom from hell until he is loosed to return to earth for the final battle between good and evil.
​

Apparently that verse doesn't apply to satan.

Because Jesus himself warns of his coming, even after him.

You essentially are taking Christs exact words, and saying it means something that Jesus himself never said.

Again, read this verse. If Jesus meaning what he said contradicts your doctrinal beliefs, then your doctrinal beliefs are what needs to change, not what is written.


Joh 14:30 "I don't have much more time to talk to you, because the ruler of this world approaches. He has no power over Me,

The apostles confirm this.

1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


The authority of scripture isn't contestable and this isn't a "parable", its a literal statement.

We also have in the Book of Job, Satan, who comes before the Lord after moving freely about the earth.

Job 1:6 "came to present themselves before the Lord"

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.