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WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by LoveGodsWord, Oct 17, 2021.

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  1. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    Lawlessness is practiced to by those under the law, as all the law spoke was to those under the law..



    Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
     
  2. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    Love for God is obeying the truth, it is Jesus Christ set forth amongst us ( for belief in His rising)


    Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
     
  3. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    Yes SDA believe God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him in the law.

    Repentance is not obeying law, repentance is obedience of faith ( to be baptized when we believe with all of our heart in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead).....




    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


    Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.


    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.





    1 John 3:4-10, is as told, those who are not manifested to know that Jesus Christ ( death and resurrection) takes away our sins ( for those who the law speaks to who are guilty of being under the law of sin and death)


    1 John 3: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.



    Of course that is what 1 John 2 says also, how Jesus Christ ( we must believe in His rising for this ( is propitiation for our sins ( for the world guilty before God as the law says to them that are under the law, Romans 3:19)

    The law ( those under the law and those following the law) made nothing perfect, now to be perfected is to believe in Christs rising ( and not perfected by following and obeying law) as that is to walk as He walked, see below..




    Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


    1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
     
  4. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    SDA use the same verses over and over, why not come and examine them with me ?

    1 John 3:4, is misquoted by SDA.



    The law was wrath, without law there is no transgression.

    1 John 3, requires belief in the hope of Christ, to be free from the transgression of the law.



    Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.



    1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.



    remember where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION.

    Now that is taught and confirmed, Christ has made us FREE FROM THE LAW

    To them that are WITHOUT LAW ( under the law to Christ)

    To bear one another;'s burdens, is to FULFILL THE LAW OF CHRIST ( law keeping is not that fulfilment but is them under the law, in wrath and in transgression)



    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

    Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
     
  5. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    Keeping the commandments of Christ, SDA every day teach that this is the ten commandments.


    It is nonsense, as the ten commandments were made for the lawless disobedient, not for Christ in the obedience of faith.

    Neither was the sabbath made for Christ ( the Son of man) as He also is Lord of the sabbath, Matthew 12:8.


    1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,




    The commandment of Christ is love, belief in Christ rising is the righteous belief that we receive the Spirit by, which is then the love of God shed into our hearts by the hope of Christs rising, Romans 5:5, 1 Peter 1:3.

    God cant give the Holy Spirit to those who seek God and the keeping of the commandments of Christ through the works of the law. It is not of faith.

    Faith is believing in the walk of Jesus Christ.



    SDA show disdain to this, by saying Israel took the name of God in vain, by caring more about their possessions, and how it is not disobedience of unbelief in Christ, why they never ( and still do not) give all their life away to follow Christ 9 Mark 10:18-30)

    They only are prepared to do what Israel did, to observe 10 commandments, to make difference between what to eat.

    They also ( as always giving blasphemy) insist Christ rested and kept their law of sabbath.

    They speak less about Christ summing up of nothing unclean can go into our mouths, but all uncleaness comes from the heart.
     
  6. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    Also it is understood why SDA teach law, ( isnt enough of them following law and failing grace told about in the Epistles?)


    Of course at the end times that increases, as men it is predicted turn the love of God into lust.

    Following law means they are in the flesh and have not the Spirit, so that they turn Gods grace into sin ( this is what the devils ministers want and the devil as an angel of light has to fulfil that as testified for us)


    Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


    2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
     
  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Not really, your pitting Gods' Word against Gods' Word when according to the scriptures Gods' Word is the truth that we are to be sanctified by as shown in John 17:17. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10.
    Nobody said we can obey Gods' law without Gods' Spirit. So if no one has said we can obey Gods' law without Gods' Spirit why are you pretending that they have?
    Your making arguments no one is arguing about.
    No one is telling you to receive the Spirit by the works of the law. If no one is telling you to receive the Spirit by the works of the law why are you pretending that they are? As posted earlier, obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27.
    No one has ever once told you that we are justified by the works of the law. Your making stuff up now no one believes or has ever said to you.
    According to Paul we fulfill the law of love to our neighbor by obeying those laws in God's 10 commandments from the heart that are our duty of love to our fellow man as shown in Romans 13:8-10 if we love our neighbor we will not steal from them, lie to them or commit adultery with their spouse or murder them. Love therefore is not separate from obedience to Gods' law. Love is expressed by obeying God's law which is our duty of love to both God and our fellow man which is why Jesus says "on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets. Therefore no one loves God by breaking His commandments. These are those who do not love him.

    Take care.
     
  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Now your saying things again that no one has said or believes. To obey God means to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. This is the meaning of Acts of the Apostles 5:32 where God gives His Spirit to all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says. God does not give His Spirit to those who do not believe and follow what His Word says because the latter do not have faith. As James says these all have the dead faith of devils who believe in God but does not do what God says (James 2:17-26).
     
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    We have looked at every scripture you have posted and not one of them supports anything that you have posted because no one believes the things you are pretending they believe as has been shown to you many times. It is you that is saying the same things over and over without even addressing any of the content shared in the posts and scriptures that disagree with you.
    I see. So according to you when you are provided scripture which is God's Word that says in 1 John 3:4 [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. According to you that is a misquote?
    Well that is misquoting scripture. According to the scripture the law is not wrath it is holy, just and good according to Romans 7:12. God's wrath is because of unbelief and sin (John 3:36) in all those who choose not to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. If there is no law we have no knowledge of what sin is. If you have no knowledge of what sin is we do not know we are sinners in need of a Saviour. If we have no Savior we are all lost because we are still in our sins. Do you know the meaning of Matthew 9:12-13? If so what do you think it means?

    Take Care.
     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Now your making things up again that are simply not true. Perhaps you can tell us the meaning of Matthew 9:12-13?
    According to the scripture Jesus is Lord (creator) of the Sabbath that he made for all mankind *Mark 2:27-28 and he commands us to keep it as a holy day of rest *Exodus 20:8-11 as it is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Exodus 20:1-17; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.
    No one loves God by breaking His commandments. This was already touched on in an earlier post but let's touch on it again. As shown through the scriptures shared with you earlier, love is not separate from Gods law (10 commandments) it is expressed in obedience to it and is how we love God (Commandments 1-4) and how we love our fellow man (Commandments 5-10) showing we are believing and following Gods’ Word. This is why Jesus says on these two commandments of love to God and love to our neighbor hang all the law and the prophets. Love does not abolish Gods’ law (10 commandments) it obeys God’s law from the heart and is how Gods’ love is expressed through obedience to Gods’ law (10 commandments) in the new covenant being written on the heart by God as we have faith in Gods’ Word.

    Paul states very clearly that the commandment to loving our neighbor as our self is simply summing up those commandments in the 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man in Romans 13:8-9 and being obedient to them by faith that works by love. Therefore love fulfills Gods’ law and is obedient to God’s law. It does not break Gods’ law. If we break Gods’ law (anyone of God’s 10 commandments) or do not believe and follow Gods’ Word according to the scriptures we are not showing love to God or our fellow man. Faith therefore does not delete Gods' law like some people teach. Faith according to Paul establishes Gods' law in all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says *Romans 3:31.

    Take Care.
     
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    SDA's teach and believe no such thing. Your making stuff up now no one believes or has ever said to you. I will leave that between you and God to work through.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
  12. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

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    "Love for God is obeying the truth" - OK. Whether it's obeying Jesus Christ who is the Truth, obeying the truth about Jesus Christ, obeying the Good News of Jesus Christ, obeying God's commandments, which I would take to be Truth, it all seems to comply with Scripture, but it is not the most succinct statement about Love in Scripture.

    Gal3:1 does not explain Biblical Love, which is what my post discusses. Paul doesn't pick up discussion of Love specifically by word until Gal5 where in 5:14 he once again draws back to love neighbor from Lev19 to make his point.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Of course God's plan is on God's terms. Goes without saying.

    Do you accept the doctrine of eternal security for every believer?

    So, basically, you are saying that you can ignore "one or two Scriptures" that don't agree with how you understand other verses. That's now how this works.

    If there is ANY verse that in very clear words says something DIFFERENT than how you understand ANY other verse, the problem is with YOUR understanding of that other verse.

    That's how this works. And John 5:24 and 10:28 are so clearly stated that it is IMPOSSIBLE to come to any other conclusion. But with your philosophy, you can ignore these 2 verses and happily continue believing what you only think other verses teach.

    OK, fair enough. Now, prove to me that both John 5:24 and John 10:28 have been taken out of context.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Gee, thanks for the freedom, as if it's yours to give.

    The real issue here is you STILL have not given a rational or reasonable explanation of what John 5:24, John 10:28, Eph 1:13,14 or 1 Peter 1:23 say.

    What you HAVE DONE is terribly pervert Greek tenses, and even make up stuff.

    In truth, you have been.

    The clarity of the verses above absolutely refute your opinions.
     
  15. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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  16. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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  17. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    According to what you quote, (Philippians 2:13) nothing is written of your words at all.

    Confession and belief of Christ risen is the faith ( we are saved by)

    That is the fruit as you put it, of faith.





    Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.




    Again you want to continue in circles and claim that James says that the fruit of faith is works ?


    The work of God is as Christ told, you are unable to add to it..


    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



    Therefore they are justified of believing in Christ rising ( without the deeds of the law) that SDA insist is necessary and required..


    Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
     
  18. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    Your words again are not what is contained in the chapter.

    Your adherence/observing of the law is not what is told to do, or the way to love at all.

    What is required is what is told ( you can neither add nor take away) and it is to put on the Lord Jesus Christ, to put on the armour of light.


    Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
    11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
    12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
    13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
    14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.



    Only SDA claims that this is to keep 10 commandments, and that is what we are told Israel, did and it is seeking through the works of the law, it is the very simple mistake.

    But here is how to put on the whole armour of God ( to put on Christ/charity/perfection)

    Girt about with truth ( the truth is Christ rising from the dead)

    Having that breastplate of righteousness ( righteousness for believing in the heart God raised Him from the dead)

    That is by hearing the preparation of the Gospel of peace ( Christ guides our feet to the way of peace and faith comes by hearing, and hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD, not by the law)

    This is taking the shield of faith against those of the law which is not of faith.

    The helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, is not the 10 commandments then ( it is the living word not contained in ordinances or on tables of stone)..



    Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
    15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
    16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
    17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
     
  19. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think you first need to understand what the biblical definition of what believe means. Does believing in God mean we can also worship other gods? That doesn't sound like belief to me because God told us to only worship Him Exodus 20:3. You are using the word belief in the broad sense, but the Bible doesn't teach that everyone who believes will be saved because the devil believes in God and he will not be saved according to scripture.

    I also never said we can ignore these two scriptures, but the rest of the Bible provides context to these two scriptures instead of deleting 99% of the bible to make the two scriptures fit.

    You can't believe without faith; how can you have faith without knowing and how can you know without love? Loving God is the greatest commandment, so how can you believe and choose to ignore these words by our Creator, Savior and Redeemer?

    John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
    John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
    Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

    1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

    Let put back context in the scripture you quote from John. It really is spelled out for us.

    John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

    Jesus is saying eternal life is conditional- those who do not believe are not His sheep because they do not hear His voice or follow Him (His example) and He does not know them. Jesus gives us lots of warnings like this.
    Compare that to:

    1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

    According to Jesus you can't be His sheep if you do not follow Him, which Jesus as our example kept all the commandments and told us too as well. John 15:10 He knows us ONLY if we keep the commandments 1 John 2:4, Matthew 7:23 because His sheep hear His voice so when Jesus tells us John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments His sheep will hear Him and obey.

    For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. It's quite shocking people argue over this actually.
     
  20. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    To obey God is to believe God, as nobody can obey God without belief.

    To believe God, is to believe that Christ was raised by God from the dead.

    That is how the Spirit is given, it cant be given by obeying God in laws, that is the letter that killeth.

    We see the Spirit comes not on those obeying His word, but on those HEARING THE FAITH:



    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.



    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.




    Also this is your false and adding to Gods word, statement....


    "God does not give His Spirit to those who do not believe and follow what His Word says"



    God gives His Spirit ONLY TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HEARING HIS WORD, you can show no verses of the Spirit given to people obeying God, as we see they received the Spirit ( which then is understood to be the free gift of God( solely by the hearing of the faith preached.



    Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
     
  21. Christian7777777

    Christian7777777 Active Member

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    1 John 3:4 says nothing about necessity to keep ten commandments to not transgress the law.


    Those under the law are those who transgress the law, as other verses confirm.


    Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


    Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
     
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