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WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by LoveGodsWord, Oct 17, 2021.

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  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Then we have scripture that says...

    Romans 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    According to the scriptures those who do not receive Gods' condemnation are those who are "in Christ" who "walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit". That is according to Galatians 5:16 that if we walk in the Spirit we will not be obeying the lusts of the flesh or carnal mind. Therefore being obedient to Gods' law not breaking Gods' law. Therefore being "in Christ" means to be obedient to Gods' Word through faith.

    [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    That is if we are "in Christ" and walking in "His Spirit" we well be living a life like Jesus not being disobedient to Gods' law by breaking Gods' law. This is sin and something that Jesus never did or that God's Spirit never leads us to so because as shown earlier through the scriptures if we are walking in the Spirit we will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). The law of the "Spirit of life" therefore makes us free from the law of sin and death of the lusts of the flesh (carnal mind).

    [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,1 condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    God's law does not bring obedience to Gods' Word because the flesh (Carnal mind or sinful human nature) cannot obey it but God sending His son Jesus in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in the flesh so that the righteousness or obedience of Gods' law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind; sinful human nature) but walk after the Spirit so that we do not obey the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). So the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in obedience to Gods' law not breaking Gods' law.

    Take Care.
     
  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    As it is written, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. No one is led by the Spirit to break Gods' law because God only gives His Spirit to those who obey Him according to the scriptures *Acts of the Apostles 5:32. According to John, those who say they know God and do not keep His commandments are lying and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:3-4) because those who really know God do not practice sin (breaking Gods law) *1 John 3:6-9.
    According to the scriptures, if our faith does not have works all you have is the dead faith of devils (see James 2:17-26) Which agrees with John who shows that the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil is sin (breaking Gods' law) in 1 John 3:6-9. Therefore according to John no one can claim to know God while living in sin and disobedience to Gods' Word in 1 John 2:3-4. Paul also says that if we have received Gods' Spirit and walk in Gods' Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh but the be obedient to Gods' law as shown in Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 5:16; Romans 13:8-12. Therefore faith does not abolish the law like some try and teach it establishes Gods' law in the lives of all those who believe Gods' Word so that they are obedient to Gods' law *Romans 3:31.
    No one therefore has Gods' law written in the heart if they are breaking Gods' law. If someone is breaking Gods' law according to the scriptures they do not know God and need to be born again according to John in 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-9.

    Take Care.
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    No one keeps the Spirit of the law without believing the letter of the law because it is the letter of the law that leads us to the Spirit of the law as we believe what Gods' Word says through faith (Romans 3:31). This is because according to Jesus the words that he speaks unto us are Spirit and are life as we believe them (John 6:63; John 3:36). They are the seeds that remain so we can be born of God not to practice sin (see 1 John 3:9 and Luke 8:11). It is the Spirit of the law that writes Gods' new covenant promise in the hearts of those who walk by faith in Gods' Word (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Galatians 5:16; 2 Corinthians 5:7) to be obedient to Gods' law which is the fruit of faith.

    Take Care.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law therefore is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Therefore says Jesus you shall know them (who is from God and who is not) by their fruit. *Matthew 7:16-20; John 15:1-6; 1 John 2:3-4. Anything else according to James in James 2:17-26 is the dead faith of devils.

    Take Care.
     
  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    The Sabbath is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Exodus 20:8-11; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. According to James if we knowingly break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand convicted "under the law" guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11; Romans 3:19. Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God's Word to break His commandments. According to Jesus if we knowingly break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. This then begs the question if we are following man-made teachings and traditions that lead us to break Gods' commandments who are we following God or man? God has His people in every Church (John 10:16) living up to all the knowledge that he has revealed to them and knows that many break His commandments out of ignorance (Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17) but now when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow what His Word says. According to Jesus the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling His people where ever they might be to come out of following man-made teachings and traditions and to return to his Word. Gods' sheep will hear His Voice (the Word), and follow Him. Those who do not hear will not follow according to Jesus because they are not His sheep *John 10:26-27
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    The book of the law is not the same as God's law written on two tables of stone to be written on the fleshly tables of the heart to love in Gods' new covenant promise. Love is not separate to God's law. Love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law which is why Jesus says on these two commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets *Matthew 22:36-40. Paul agrees with Jesus in Romans 13:8-10 when he says that we show our love to our fellow man by keeping those laws in Gods' commandments that show us our duty of love to our neighbor (Exodus 20:12-17). James also agrees with Jesus and Paul in James 2:8-12 when he says if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them. While John also agrees in 1 John 5:2-3 that we need to be born of God to love and walk in His Spirit which is Gods' new covenant promise in all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9; Galatians 5:16; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. No one loves God therefore by breaking God's law and not believing and following what Gods' Word says. Those are the children of the devil according to 1 John 3:6-10.
     
  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Your post here is simply more repetition already addressed with detailed scripture responses throughout this thread.

    This is the point right here. Those who are "believing" have God's promise of eternal life. That is by believing they have the hope of eternal life if they should remain faithful to the end believing and following what Gods' Word says because God's salvation according to the scriptures is "conditional" on believing and following what Gods' Word says to the end. If we are no longer "believing" then we have departed the faith and eternal life that we receive which is conditional to "believing and following" Gods' Word to the end. According to the scriptures shared with you already, and also demonstrated in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31. If no one could depart the faith (stop believing) we would not be warned against it.

    If someone has departed the faith they are no longer believing but have become unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. It is written in John 3:36 [36], He that believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. If some one has departed the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and the scripture is fulfilled in John 3:36 which uses the same Greek word application as John 5:24. John 3:36 [36], He that believes (G4100 πιστεύων V-PPA-NMS = believing) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not (G4100 πιστεύων = believing not) the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God stays on him = unsaved".

    Every scripture you have provided are to Gods' people that are "believing" not those who once believed yesterday, "departed the faith" today to become "unbelievers". Those who shall "NEVER PERISH" according to the scriptures, therefore are all those who continue "believing" to the very end. They are "believers" (present tense), not unbelievers or someone that believed yesterday but has chosen to "depart the faith" and no longer believes today (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:27-31).

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
  8. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Why should I have? Are you suggesting that keeping the commandments are required for salvation??? Well, they aren't. And the verses I quoted PROVE that every believer, from the moment they believe and receive the gift of eternal life, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, SHALL NEVER PERISH.

    And NONE of the verses mention "keeping commandments" or ANY other kind of lifestyle.

    Are you really trying to pit Scripture against Scripture?

    Gal 3-
    2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
    5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

    The verses you cited CANNOT mean what you think they mean. Or the Bible would be contradicted, which is impossible.

    I appreciate your emotions about that, but the Bible disagrees with your emotional opinion.

    I guess you either didn't actually read Eph 1:13, 14 or you did read the verses but outright rejected them. Either way, your views do not line up with Scripture.

    This is so very common among those who believe that salvation can be lost. They get very emotional about certain kinds of sin or offensive lifestyles, and just cannot believe that God will let them in heaven.

    But, we know there was a guy in Corinth who was having sex with his mother-in-law. Paul didn't write him off as an unbeliever or a believer who lost salvation, but a carnal type who needed to be kicked out of the congregation as discipline. And by 2 Corinthians, it appears he repented.

    This is a simple description of what Jesus' sheep DO. Or as a policy statement, what they OUGHT to do. What this verse is NOT, is a condition for receiving eternal life.
     
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I do not believe you. Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We only know about Christ today through His written Word that we are to share with others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    See post # 496 linked
     
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    According to the scriptures if we do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says then we are in sin and unbelief that the scriptures warn us about and have departed the faith. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Therefore says Jesus you shall know them (who is from God and who is not) by their fruit. *Matthew 7:16-20; John 15:1-6; 1 John 2:3-4. Anything else according to James in James 2:17-26 is the dead faith of devils.
     
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    According to the scriptures, repentance from sin is the condition of receiving Gods' Spirit. God does not give His Spirit to those who disobey Him (Acts of the Apostles 2:38; Acts of the Apostles 3:19; Acts of the Apostles 5:32. According to John sin (breaking God's law and not believing Gods' Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:4-10. Those who are the children of God do not practice sin while those who claim to know God and break His commandments according to John do not know God and are liars with Gods' truth not being in them according to 1 John 2:3-4. Gods' saints therefore are all those who keep the commandments of God because they have faith in Jesus according to Revelation 14:12. Something to pray about I guess.

    Take Care.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Why do you just keep repeating yourself? no matter how many times you do this, it won't make any of it true.

    I've already refuted this untruth. John 5:24 doesn't even mention a "promise" as you keep repeating. Read it for yourself. "have eternal life" isn't a promise. It's a statement about POSSESSION of eternal life. Are you eyes closed or something?? Well, open them up.

    Well, since you reject what John 5:24 actually says, there is no reason to reply to any of this extremely biases and inaccurate stuff.

    Faulty conclusion based on FAILURE to properly understand Scripture.

    Since you bring up "departed the faith", let's see what the Bible says about who will be condemned.

    John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

    2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

    The bolded words are the very same in both verses. So, what do they mean?

    They mean "never believed". If you EVER ate a rutabaga, it cannot be said that you "have not eaten" a rutabaga. Because you did once.

    So, these 2 verses destroy your theory that anyone who departs the faith will perish.

    These 2 verses say that it is those who "have not believed" will be condemned, or perish.

    There is no reason to address any of this since you have repeatedly demonstrated a very serious misunderstanding of Greek tenses. Which has led you to very unbiblical ideas.
     
  14. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

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    Hi Clare:

    What's the specific point you're trying to draw out here? Especially re: 13:10b.

    Thanks!
     
  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Do you really think your repetition of this very trite comment makes a difference to anything? I assure you it doesn't, so you might as well quit.

    btw, since your views of Scripture are so out of whack, I already know you don't believe me. The sad thing is that you don't really believe the Word either.

    If only that were true. But, sadly, it's just another empty claim.

    I've given you verses that plainly teach eternal security.

    John 5:24 with John 10:28
    Eph 1;13,14
    1 Peter 1:23

    And I showed that condemnation is ONLY for those who "never believed" which blows your "depart the faith" theory right out of the water.

    And you haven't even touched these verses.
     
  16. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi thanks for your reply but all I see here is that you have not addressed anything in the post you are responding to except to provide an opinion unsupported by the scriptures. So I guess we will agree to disagree. You were provided scripture why I believe your claims are not true. Anyhow of course you are free to believe as you wish. That is between you and God I guess. If we are warned not to "depart the faith" and we can choose to depart the faith at any time there is no such thing as eternal security in my view because the promise of "eternal security" is only ever given to those who are "believing" (present tense) God's Word to the end. If we choose to "depart the faith" then we are no longer believing but have become "unbelieving" and according to Jesus the wrath of God remains on us (John 3:36).

    Take Care.
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    LOL. Given your total misunderstanding of Greek tenses, you have been led astray.

    You have NOT addressed John 5:24 with 10:28.

    You have NOT addressed Eph 1:13,14.

    You have NOT addressed 1 Peter 1:23.

    You have NOT addressed John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

    These verses plainly REFUTE all your claims.
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry dear friend, but I do not believe there is a single claim or accusation in your post here that has any truth in it whatsoever. So we will agree to disagree. Everyone of those scriptures were addressed with a detailed scripture response throughout this thread showing those scriptures are not saying what you are claiming they are saying. Even the Greek tenses were provided that are in disagreement with you. According to the scriptures, God's promises are conditional to believing or not unbelieving Gods' Word in those who choose to depart the faith to become unbelievers (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31; John 3:36). If we can choose to depart the faith at any time through temptation and sin, then there is no such thing as eternal security in my personal view according to the scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2022
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    This is a total untruth. I JUST NOW added John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. So we now know you are not below spreading untruths.


    You've shown nothing of the kind.

    And you don't know what you are talking about.
     
  20. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not emotional and I agree scripture does not discount scripture, so I'm not sure it's wise to keep discounting clear scripture.

    I never said obeying the commandments was required for salvation, but as shown through scripture very clearly, God's saints keep the commandments Revelation 14:12, so it is a fruit of our faith, we are saved by grace through our faith, which is established by God's law Romans 3:31. It's a good way to test yourself to see if you are in the faith. Those who are not doers of God's Word only deceive themselves. James 1:22

    If God tells us we show our love through obedience, not my words but the Word of God why would you want to argue with that? Why would anyone want to do the very least to get into to heaven if you love Jesus?

    John 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
    John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
    Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

    It sounds to be me people who don’t want to keep the commandments has a problem with love. Love is the fulfillment of the law which is shown through our obedience.

    Take care.
     
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