Why Protestants should call Mary, the Mother of God.

[Major1]

Your post reminds me that I read somewhere about Catholics making Mary a fourth member of the Trinity. I shook my head when I read that statement. Still, I will say that when I first came across the unofficial title of Mary being the Mediator of all graces, I was reminded of the startling claim about making Mary divine.

Now, let's be honest. If one digs into the detailed explanations about the unofficial titles of Co-Redeemer and Mediator of all graces, nowhere it is taught or believed that Mary is actually divine. However, if it is indeed true that she is the Mediator of all graces, this sure would seem to elevate her to a level that is way beyond any other human being. I have asked the Eastern Orthodox board about said unofficial titles and I do not recall a single positive reply there concerning said proposed Marian titles.

Your memory is much like mine. I had not given it any thought as I am not a Catholic. I do however have several neighbors and not long ago that very topic came up and they asked me if there was a possibility of that being done.

 

[Major1]

Understood It’s just something I’ve been thinking about lately in regards to these threads.

I hear you and there is more conversation among Catholics than most people are aware on this subject.

 

[All4Christ]

I hear you and there is more conversation among Catholics than most people are aware on this subject.

Honestly, the majority of my discussions with Catholics about theology are on Christian Forums - so I can’t speak to that point. Most Catholics I talk to in Traditional Theology are very smart and well versed in theology, but certainly there are a range of opinions. I’m not sure exactly what you are referencing, though I could guess on a few points.

Either way, I am more aware of what the Orthodox Church teaches and conversations about our beliefs among EO Christians.

 

[JackRT]

I regard Mary as the mother of Jesus. There is no way that I could say that she was the mother of God. Jesus pointed us toward God.

 

[Albion]

There you go .......... @Albion. Isn't that pretty much what I was saying to you that the discussion is and has been out there in the Catholic church.

"Jesus loves our Lady" said..........
"I'll return here and continue defending the Dogma of Mary as the Mother of God."

I don't see where our friend wrote that, but no matter. He is clearly a devoted member of his church and is just as happy to call Mary by one of her other titles, I'll bet. In other words, I don't see where this particular title of honor (Theotokos) is any kind of slippery slope for him. That was the main contention you were making--that one thing leads to another and this title makes it more likely.

IMO if the RCC should say, tomorrow, that Mary is the fourth person of the Trinity, that will immediately be repeated by the church's most loyal members, Theotokos or no Theotokos.

 

[prodromos]

Your memory is much like mine. I had not given it any thought as I am not a Catholic. I do however have several neighbors and not long ago that very topic came up and they asked me if there was a possibility of that being done.

I cannot fathom why Catholics would ask a Protestant about the Catholic faith. Your neighbors are a weird bunch to be sure.

 

[Major1]

I cannot fathom why Catholics would ask a Protestant about the Catholic faith. Your neighbors are a weird bunch to be sure.

They are Christians my friend and were asking another Christian. It is called down here in the south, a "civil conversation."

Actually, my neighbors are not nearly as weird as are some on this web site.

 

[amariselle]

It's time face the facts.

According to Pope Francis Mary is "always present", so she's apparently omnipresent. (Which Scripture is abundantly clear is a quality or characteristic that belongs to God alone.)

According to Pope Francis we cannot know who's "passion" was greater, Jesus' or Mary's.

And Pope Francis promised to entrust the temporal and eternal destinies of humanity to the Virgin (Mary) at Fatima.

So, when should we be willing to admit that even barring an official declaration or teaching, the Catholic Church has elevated "Mary" to a level that belongs to God alone?

 

[amariselle]

Prayer of His Holiness Pope Francis - Chapel of the Apparitions -Fatima - Friday, May 12, 2017

 

[Hieronymus]

The problem with discussing Roman Catholicism, is that seemingly there is a difference between what 'Christian Catholics' (the flock) believe and what the 'Catholic Clergy' (especially at the top) believes.
This has become clearer with the present Pope (or i didn't pay attention to it before i became a Christian).
I could make a list with pictures to illustrate this, but i think we all know where the ambiguities are.
But it seems that 'Christian Catholic apologetics' are often mainly there to 'explain away' the 'pagan looking' (or sounding) things introduced by the papacy over time.
As some put it, esoteric Catholicism is different from Catholicism for the flock, which is Christian.
So in practice, Christian non-Catholics bring up 'accusations' in discussion with Christian Catholics, which do not apply to the Christian Catholics, but to the papacy.
Result is that the Christian Catholics feel (and are) falsely accused, and they have the apologetics to defend themselves too.

The irony being that Catholics then accuse non-Catholics of division, while the actual division seems to be between Christian Catholics and their leaders.
This varies though, it's different in various cultures.
In 'the west' where protestantism used to be main Christianity, the Catholics seem to be more 'Biblical' than in other regions.

 

[amariselle]

The problem with discussing Roman Catholicism, is that seemingly there is a difference between what 'Christian Catholics' (the flock) believe and what the 'Catholic Clergy' (especially at the top) believes.
This has become clearer with the present Pope (or i didn't pay attention to it before i became a Christian).
I could make a list with pictures to illustrate this, but i think we all know where the ambiguities are.
But it seems that 'Christian Catholic apologetics' are often mainly there to 'explain away' the 'pagan looking' (or sounding) things introduced by the papacy over time.
As some put it, esoteric Catholicism is different from Catholicism for the flock, which is Christian.
So in practice, Christian non-Catholics bring up 'accusations' in discussion with Christian Catholics, which do not apply to the Christian Catholics, but to the papacy.
Result is that the Christian Catholics feel (and are) falsely accused, and they have the apologetics to defend themselves too.

The irony being that Catholics then accuse non-Catholics of division, while the actual division seems to be between Christian Catholics and their leaders.
This varies though, it's different in various cultures.
In 'the west' where protestantism used to be main Christianity, the Catholics seem to be more 'Biblical' than in other regions.

While I agree that not all Catholics believe all that is held as official Catholic teachings and traditions, many do, or they believe certain things which still corrupt the true Gospel. (The same is true in many Protestant and Evangelical churches of course).

The point is, it would be a mistake to believe that the head of the Catholic Church, the Pope, does not influence the Catholics under him, and not just the clergy, but the lay-members as well.

And, as we have seen, Pope Francis has absolutely promoted unity and an invitation to return to Rome to Protestants/Evangelicals.

So, we still must pay close attention to the official teachings of the Catholic Church, because they have not changed.

 

[Major1]

It's time face the facts.

According to Pope Francis Mary is "always present", so she's apparently omnipresent. (Which Scripture is abundantly clear is a quality or characteristic that belongs to God alone.)

According to Pope Francis we cannot know who's "passion" was greater, Jesus' or Mary's.

And Pope Francis promised to entrust the temporal and eternal destinies of humanity to the Virgin (Mary) at Fatima.

So, when should we be willing to admit that even barring an official declaration or teaching, the Catholic Church has elevated "Mary" to a level that belongs to God alone?

That would certainly be my understanding.

 

[Major1]

The problem with discussing Roman Catholicism, is that seemingly there is a difference between what 'Christian Catholics' (the flock) believe and what the 'Catholic Clergy' (especially at the top) believes.
This has become clearer with the present Pope (or i didn't pay attention to it before i became a Christian).
I could make a list with pictures to illustrate this, but i think we all know where the ambiguities are.
But it seems that 'Christian Catholic apologetics' are often mainly there to 'explain away' the 'pagan looking' (or sounding) things introduced by the papacy over time.
As some put it, esoteric Catholicism is different from Catholicism for the flock, which is Christian.
So in practice, Christian non-Catholics bring up 'accusations' in discussion with Christian Catholics, which do not apply to the Christian Catholics, but to the papacy.
Result is that the Christian Catholics feel (and are) falsely accused, and they have the apologetics to defend themselves too.

The irony being that Catholics then accuse non-Catholics of division, while the actual division seems to be between Christian Catholics and their leaders.
This varies though, it's different in various cultures.
In 'the west' where protestantism used to be main Christianity, the Catholics seem to be more 'Biblical' than in other regions.

With all due respect to you my friend, if the Catholics in the west seem MORE Biblical than in other regions, I would hate to seem what they are like in those other regions.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I really wish I could stay and debate, since Mary as The Mother of God totally undeniable, and I will post another debate on this sometime in the future. Unfortunately I currently going through a lot right now, and I have decided to take a break from CF. I will now request that this thread be closed.

If anyone wants to continue this debate, by all means start up your own thread.

 

[All4Christ]

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