Why pray to Mary- Catholic respones only!!!

[MrPolo]

Now why would I pray to my guardian angel when It is the Father that sends them out?

Because your Father gave you one.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Because your Father gave you one.

I find this to be peculiar. There is nothing at all that I can find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church addressing "guardian angels" although there are several references to the intercession of Mary and the saints.

You alluded earlier to the Psalms as stating this "fact." Could you provide the reference(s) you had in mind and perhaps I will start a new thread on the topic rather than derail this one.

 

[stormdancer0]

I speak to my guardian angel(s). I PRAY to God and God alone.

 

[MrPolo]

I find this to be peculiar. There is nothing at all that I can find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church addressing "guardian angels" although there are several references to the intercession of Mary and the saints.

CCC#335 the Church joins with the angels to adore the thrice-holy God. She invokes their assistance...

Other references to angels.

 

[MrPolo]

I speak to my guardian angel(s). I PRAY to God and God alone.

When you say you speak to your guardian angel, this is the same as when a Catholic uses the term "pray." The word pray to a Catholic often means to "ask," just like Paul asked other members of the body of Christ for intercession (Rm 15:30, etc...)

It's good to understand how others use terms.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The main and most often said "prayer" to Mary is a request "ASKING" her to p¬ray for us (to God). Further supporting what Catholics here have said, we are asking someone else to pray for us.

Do some abuse the Marian devotions and it becomes something else? I know they do, it is wrong and the Church teaches that it is wrong. The fact they are doing something wrong should not reflect on the rest of us or on the proper use of such prayers.

We have pre-Resurection stories of people making requests on behalf of thier loved ones still living. Nothing to indicate post Resurrection that those going before us cannot still make such requests on our behalf. Why should we believe such communications by the dead on our behalf ceased with Christ’s Gift of Love?

We have depictions of Saints in Heaven offering up the prayers of saints to God in Revelation. To me it makes sense that could only be offering something they heard and received on our behalf.

It has been suggested by some that because of God’s being Eternal, our prayer life with Him should not be restricted to just the present, our present. Most of us have no problem extending that forward, most pray for His Kingdom to come, future events/outcomes...etc. Formerly a Baptist myself, many of us often spoke of prayer “warriors”. How much bigger a concept to extend that thought to all time, forward and backward? To think that our present prayer could be “effectual” even for past events, past relatives as they go through their own trials opens the battle field. And if those ideas extend beyond this life, the field gets bigger still.

If my conscious, my spirit is suppose to ponder such thoughts, which the Apostles seem to encourage in telling us to pray for one another, then why should I think that such prayer should all end when I cross over to the next life?
Some would say we could not be “happy” in the next life if we had to continue thinking about the struggles ongoing here. While it is a thought, am not sure how to conclude that either way having never been there myself.

However, the thought of being somehow pleasantly eternally oblivious to those still living here, nice and appealing as that seems, never fit with my notions of what Heaven should be like, or Justice or being a prayer “warrior”. Why should we struggle, succeed and then not be able in the next life to help those still struggling?


The thought of eternal oblivious bliss seems rather more Stepford’esk than my idea of what becoming a glorified “saint” in Heaven would mean. How can a Stepford wife or man be a “warrior”?

In some simplistic way I guess I could say God is Happy even seeing all that transpires here. So in faith I could say He could see to my happiness even if such events were made known to me in the next life. I do not think we will be ALL knowing, but if God can be happy knowing ALL, then surely He can see to our happiness even if we are partially aware of events here.

If we are all in a struggle together, and we are all “one body”, then surely we do not cease to be a part of that body when we pass on to the next life. And if a part of that body is still at war here then I would think we are all (past, present, future) still a part of that same body at war. So the idea that part of this “one body” could already be at eternal happy, oblivious rest while the rest of it (currently us) still struggle does not work for me.

even if physically taken out of the “fight”, I would like to think that as enjoined by the Apostles, those who have passed on can at least still pray to God on our behalf and be asked by us to do so. And such a role seems more fitting to a Saint, and someone I could see as being a mighty prayer WARRIOR in Heaven helping in the “fight” on our behalf. A much more active, fulfilling, befitting and in a way happier role for them than seeing them as kicked backed and chilling while we still struggle here. At least to me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

CCC#335 the Church joins with the angels to adore the thrice-holy God. She invokes their assistance...

Other references to angels.

I have never doubted the belief in angels in the Catholic Church. However, this makes no statement concerning "guardian angels" much less the fact that each individual is assigned a particular angel as his own "guardian angel."

 

[MrPolo]

I have never doubted the belief in angels in the Catholic Church. However, this makes no statement concerning "guardian angels" much less the fact that each individual is assigned a particular angel as his own "guardian angel."

Read all of paragraph 335. Guardian angels are specifically mentioned even with the archangels.

CCC#335 In her liturgy, the Church joins with the angels to adore the thrice-holy God. She invokes their assistance (in the funeral liturgy's In Paradisum deducant te angeli. . .["May the angels lead you into Paradise. . ."]). Moreover, in the "Cherubic Hymn" of the Byzantine Liturgy, she celebrates the memory of certain angels more particularly (St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, and the guardian angels).​

See also, Psalm 91:11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Read all of paragraph 335. Guardian angels are specifically mentioned even with the archangels.

CCC#335 In her liturgy, the Church joins with the angels to adore the thrice-holy God. She invokes their assistance (in the funeral liturgy's In Paradisum deducant te angeli. . .["May the angels lead you into Paradise. . ."]). Moreover, in the "Cherubic Hymn" of the Byzantine Liturgy, she celebrates the memory of certain angels more particularly (St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, and the guardian angels).​

See also, Psalm 91:11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.

This still does not describe a personal guardian angel for each individual on the order of a personal bodyguard. The concept I get is that there are guardian angels much as there is a police force to guard and protect people, but each person is not assigned an individual policeman to protect him.

 

[MrPolo]

This still does not describe a personal guardian angel for each individual on the order of a personal bodyguard.

St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica has info. on guardian angels.

 

[bbbbbbb]

St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica has info. on guardian angels.

Thank you for the excellent link. I now understand why the belief in a personal guardian angel is believed by many Catholics, although it is not addressed in the Catechism. Am I correct in thinking it is on the order of the belief in Limbo?

What I see here is that the primary source (the Bible) does not mention this belief at all, although it does speak of angels ministering to men. The secondary source of authority for Catholics (the Catechism) also does not address it. Thus, a tertiary source (St. Thomas Aquinas and the Early Church Fathers (e.g. Jerome and Origen)) are used to provide support for the belief. Interestingly, Aquinas did not question the idea of a personal guardian angel as it appears to have been accepted as dogmatic truth in his day. He addressed the argument of universal guardianship of each person versus guardianship of only baptized Christians. This argument presages that of the Arminian/Calvinist divided within Protestantism. It is interesting to read that he had the audacity to challenge Jerome's assertions.

That leaves the belief in a personal guardian angel as an item for individual belief for a Catholic but not for any other Christian. Other Christians are bound primarily to the teachings of the Bible, secondarily to the Traditions and doctrines of their various denominations, and not to the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor to the opinions of its theologians such as Aquinas.

 

[MrPolo]

Thank you for the excellent link. I now understand why the belief in a personal guardian angel is believed by many Catholics, although it is not addressed in the Catechism. Am I correct in thinking it is on the order of the belief in Limbo?

I would say no. I'm not aware of any opposition to the concept of guardian angels like there had been for Limbo. If I get a chance to check this in Dr. Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic dogma, I can check to see if there is another encyclical or other doc that mentions guardian angels.

 

[MrPolo]

That leaves the belief in a personal guardian angel as an item for individual belief for a Catholic but not for any other Christian. Other Christians are bound primarily to the teachings of the Bible

For what it's worth, I know of lots of non-Catholic Christians who believe in guardian angels, including on this forum. They understand Psalm 91:11 and other passages referring to angels ministering as enough evidence to believe God takes care of us this way.

 

[bbbbbbb]

For what it's worth, I know of lots of non-Catholic Christians who believe in guardian angels, including on this forum. They understand Psalm 91:11 and other passages referring to angels ministering as enough evidence to believe God takes care of us this way.

Yes. the belief in a personal guardian angel is hardly limited to Catholics. Precious Moments has a line of "Guardian Angel" statues that are really sweet and, well, precious.

The fact that anyone believes in them (and even some non-Christians do, as well) hardly means they actually exist. That is, that individual angels serving as personal guards exist.

They may exist, or they may not. At this point, there is no stated doctrine in any church affirming or disaffirming their existence, much less their role.

As for Limbo, there was a time when it was widely held as a significant doctrine by many Catholics. In the late twentieth century the winds of doctrine began blowing the other way and nearly blew Purgatory away along with Limbo.

 

[MrPolo]

The fact that anyone believes in them (and even some non-Christians do, as well) hardly means they actually exist.

That's not the basis of my argument, but yes, if people believe something exists it doesn't necessarily make it so.

As for Purgatory, don't worry, it never was almost lost, nor will it ever not be Catholic dogma.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's not the basis of my argument, but yes, if people believe something exists it doesn't necessarily make it so.

As for Purgatory, don't worry, it never was almost lost, nor will it ever not be Catholic dogma.

Nor can Purgatory be lost as long as it is enshrined within the Catechism. Unlike the Bible, however, the Catechism is subject to alteration and change, so it is a matter of time before tweaking takes place. However, at this point in time it is extremely unlikely that Purgatory will be purged from the Catechism.

Now, as I understand the basis of your argument, it is that God has assigned a guardian angel to personally guard an individual and no other. The basis for your belief, as we have seen, cannot be found in the Bible, nor can it be found in the Catechism. It is found with some Catholic theologians such as Thomas Aquinas. As such, this belief, although widely held in the population, relies on tertiary sources for direct support.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Thank you for the excellent link. I now understand why the belief in a personal guardian angel is believed by many Catholics, although it is not addressed in the Catechism. Am I correct in thinking it is on the order of the belief in Limbo?

What I see here is that the primary source (the Bible) does not mention this belief at all, although it does speak of angels ministering to men. The secondary source of authority for Catholics (the Catechism) also does not address it. Thus, a tertiary source (St. Thomas Aquinas and the Early Church Fathers (e.g. Jerome and Origen)) are used to provide support for the belief. Interestingly, Aquinas did not question the idea of a personal guardian angel as it appears to have been accepted as dogmatic truth in his day. He addressed the argument of universal guardianship of each person versus guardianship of only baptized Christians. This argument presages that of the Arminian/Calvinist divided within Protestantism. It is interesting to read that he had the audacity to challenge Jerome's assertions.

That leaves the belief in a personal guardian angel as an item for individual belief for a Catholic but not for any other Christian. Other Christians are bound primarily to the teachings of the Bible, secondarily to the Traditions and doctrines of their various denominations, and not to the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor to the opinions of its theologians such as Aquinas.

Actually the book of Tobias very directly speaks to the idea of angels interceding and interacting in our lives. We realize the book is not accepted by all of us today, but one must consider that for well over a thousand years this book and the concepts expressed were accepted by all Christians everywhere.

 

[MrPolo]

Actually the book of Tobias very directly speaks to the idea of angels interceding and interacting in our lives. We realize the book is not accepted by all of us today, but one must consider that for well over a thousand years this book and the concepts expressed were accepted by all Christians everywhere.

As well, Psalm 91:11 and as St. Thomas Aquinas points out Matthew 18:10, Heb 1:14, et al, are references to angels guarding over persons. bbbbb prefers not to interpret those passages as evidence for guardian angels. He also says the Catechism doesn't speak of guardian angels, but I showed him that they are specifically mentioned in the Catechism. The dialogue has nowhere else to go at this point.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually the book of Tobias very directly speaks to the idea of angels interceding and interacting in our lives. We realize the book is not accepted by all of us today, but one must consider that for well over a thousand years this book and the concepts expressed were accepted by all Christians everywhere.

Actually, one need not look beyond other biblical books such as the Psalms cited earlier in this thread for the concept of angels guarding individuals. That concept is, indeed, accepted by Christians everywhere. It is the particular belief that God has posted one angel per individual to guard him that is in question here and, unfortunately, Tobias does not support that view.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As well, Psalm 91:11 and as St. Thomas Aquinas points out Matthew 18:10, Heb 1:14, et al, are references to angels guarding over persons. bbbbb prefers not to interpret those passages as evidence for guardian angels. He also says the Catechism doesn't speak of guardian angels, but I showed him that they are specifically mentioned in the Catechism. The dialogue has nowhere else to go at this point.

I agree that the dialogue has reached its logical impasse. I think we are in agreement on the following:

1. There are angels.
2. Angels have, and continue, to act on God's behalf.
3. Angels guard and protect individuals.
4. All orthodox Christian denominations believe all three of the above.
5. The belief that God assigns each person an individual angel to guard him, although well rooted in popular culture, both Christian and secular, is not mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor in any other doctrinal confessions and statements of any other denomination.