Why Pray/Fast if God is Sovereign and everything is already determined by God

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
God is Sovereign, and I agree he preordains and controls and orders all things.

But at the same time there is also a multitude of verses similar to these ones:

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. 28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” Genesis 32:26-28

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you. James 4:10

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Luke 11:7

For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Matthew 7:8

Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

These might not be the best examples, but I see a lot of If you will ... than I will... in the Bible.

My position is:

Yes God hears our prayers and answers them of course according to His will, but I believe God can act on our behalf, and he can answer our prayers and hear our cries.

I understand God's righteousness is imparted unto the believer, but I believe prayers can change things.

Some will say the prayers/fasting is a good work and an attempt to appease God, but I think that might be the case.

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
God is Sovereign, and I agree he preordains and controls and orders all things.

But at the same time there is also a multitude of verses similar to these ones:

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. 28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” Genesis 32:26-28

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you. James 4:10

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Luke 11:7

For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Matthew 7:8

Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

These might not be the best examples, but I see a lot of If you will ... than I will... in the Bible.

My position is:

Yes God hears our prayers and answers them of course according to His will, but I believe God can act on our behalf, and he can answer our prayers and hear our cries.

I understand God's righteousness is imparted unto the believer, but I believe prayers can change things.

Some will say the prayers/fasting is a good work and an attempt to appease God, but I think that might be the case.

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16
See my post in the other fasting thread.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
God is Sovereign, and I agree he preordains and controls and orders all things.

But at the same time there is also a multitude of verses similar to these ones:

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. 28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” Genesis 32:26-28

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you. James 4:10

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Luke 11:7

For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. Matthew 7:8

Delight yourself in the LORD; And He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

These might not be the best examples, but I see a lot of If you will ... than I will... in the Bible.

My position is:

Yes God hears our prayers and answers them of course according to His will, but I believe God can act on our behalf, and he can answer our prayers and hear our cries.

I understand God's righteousness is imparted unto the believer, but I believe prayers can change things.

Some will say the prayers/fasting is a good work and an attempt to appease God, but I think that might be the case.

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16

Andy,

You state, 'God is Sovereign, and I agree he preordains and controls and orders all things'. Don't you believe that God preordains secondary causes who engage in certain actions?

If you don't believe in God's ordination of secondary causes, that makes God an horrific monster who preordains rapes, domestic violence and Hitler's Holocaust.

I think you ought to clarify what you mean by the Sovereign God who preordains all things. Does he preordain all the evil in the world according to Isa 45:7 (KJV), because he creates evil?

Oz
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Andy,

You state, 'God is Sovereign, and I agree he preordains and controls and orders all things'. Don't you believe that God preordains secondary causes who engage in certain actions?

If you don't believe in God's ordination of secondary causes, that makes God an horrific monster who preordains rapes, domestic violence and Hitler's Holocaust.

I think you ought to clarify what you mean by the Sovereign God who preordains all things. Does he preordain all the evil in the world according to Isa 45:7 (KJV), because he creates evil?

Oz

What do you mean by secondary issues?

Do you mean similar to the life of Joseph, and how God meant it for good?
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. Genesis 50:20
 
Upvote 0

JM

Coram Deo.
Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,337
3,604
Canada
✟738,796.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
A long, long blog post on Divine Impassibility.

He is immutable and therefore always faithful to His covenant.

God Without Passions

It's a worthy meditation.

James Petigru Boyce:

The immutability thus set forth in the Scriptures and implied in the simplicity and absolute perfection of God is not, however, to be so understood as to deny in him some real ground for the Scripture statements of emotional feeling in the exercise of joy, pity, longsuffering and mercy, or of anger, wrath and avenging justice. We could as well deny some real ground for the attributes of love, justice and truth, which are at the basis of these emotions. (Abstract of Systematic Theology)

Hodge Systematic Theology, I.5,7

Those passages of Scripture in which God is said to repent, are to be interpreted on the same principle as those in which He is said to ride upon the wings of the wind, or to walk through the earth. These create no difficulty.

God is not moved. His will is perfect.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
  • Like
Reactions: PrettyboyAndy
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
What do you mean by secondary issues?

Do you mean similar to the life of Joseph, and how God meant it for good?
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. Genesis 50:20

I didn't say 'secondary issues' but 'secondary causes'. For example, God in his sovereignty did not cause the horrific Holocaust during World War 2. He created human beings who have original sin in them and they choose to engage in horrific sin (they are secondary causes of sin). If God did the sinning and the Holocaust for them, that would make God the primary cause.

Instead, secondary causes such a Hitler, Stalin, rapists, murderers, thieves and some politicians cause the evil in our world. These people are called secondary causes in my lingo. God does not cause all of the evil in the world as the primary cause of evil. That would make God a monster.

But, according to Isa 45:7 (ESV), 'I [the Lord] form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things'.

So, it is God who creates calamities such as tsunamis, tornadoes, cyclones, hurricanes and earthquakes.

See my articles:
Sincerely,
Oz
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I see it kind of like a video game, where there are certain plot points that happen every time you play through it. For example, a game might require you to pass certain stages and kill the last boss every time you beat it, so I could guarantee that those plot points will happen in a playthrough. However, in between those plot points there are all sorts of different decisions that you can make such that no two times that you play through the game are identical. So God could have preordained plot points and prayer could still change what happens in between those plot points.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I see it kind of like a video game, where there are certain plot points that happen every time you play through it. For example, a game might require you to pass certain stages and kill the last boss every time you beat it, so I could guarantee that those plot points will happen in a playthrough. However, in between those plot points there are all sorts of different decisions that you can make such that no two times that you play through the game are identical. So God could have preordained plot points and prayer could still change what happens in between those plot points.

So your saying history unfolds itself, in a sense. Same ending but details could vary, But God is sovereign over everything.
 
Upvote 0

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I didn't say 'secondary issues' but 'secondary causes'. For example, God in his sovereignty did not cause the horrific Holocaust during World War 2. He created human beings who have original sin in them and they choose to engage in horrific sin (they are secondary causes of sin). If God did the sinning and the Holocaust for them, that would make God the primary cause.

Instead, secondary causes such a Hitler, Stalin, rapists, murderers, thieves and some politicians cause the evil in our world. These people are called secondary causes in my lingo. God does not cause all of the evil in the world as the primary cause of evil. That would make God a monster.

But, according to Isa 45:7 (ESV), 'I [the Lord] form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things'.

So, it is God who creates calamities such as tsunamis, tornadoes, cyclones, hurricanes and earthquakes.

See my articles:
Sincerely,
Oz

I understand what your saying, about us being fallen with a sinful nature.

But how does that play a role with the sovereignty of God?

Either he controls all things or he doesn't?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

98cwitr

Lord forgive me
Apr 20, 2006
20,020
3,473
Raleigh, NC
✟449,894.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I think my question is if God is sovereign over everything, how can prayer change things?

From our perspective it may seem like it did. We live from moment to moment and we are not aware of God's workings and plans. When our wills are aligned with God's, we pray as we ought to, we ask for what He wants us to have (maybe without even realizing it), and boom...prayer answered! :amen:

Something to ponder, when we pray...really pray, are we praying through ourselves or His Spirit?

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for,

1 Corinthians 14:15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with myspirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.
Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

Philippians 1:19
for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.

Jude 1:20
But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PrettyboyAndy
Upvote 0

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
From our perspective it may seem like it did. We live from moment to moment and we are not aware of God's workings and plans. When our wills are aligned with God's, we pray as we ought to, we ask for what He wants us to have (maybe without even realizing it), and boom...prayer answered! :amen:

Something to ponder, when we pray...really pray, are we praying through ourselves or His Spirit?

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for,

1 Corinthians 14:15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with myspirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.
Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

Philippians 1:19
for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.

Jude 1:20
But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

What's the difference between the two? Praying by ourselfs or praying in the spirit?
 
Upvote 0

98cwitr

Lord forgive me
Apr 20, 2006
20,020
3,473
Raleigh, NC
✟449,894.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
What's the difference between the two? Praying by ourselfs or praying in the spirit?

I think if we pray just through our own [fallen] nature our requests, from our hearts, are probably not inline with God's Will. When we pray through the Spirit, our heart's desire is very truly God's Will be done.

John 9:31
We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
I understand what your saying, about us being fallen with a sinful nature.

But how does that play a role with the sovereignty of God?

Either he controls all things or he doesn't?

No, it means that the sovereign God has allowed secondary causes - evil people - to do evil things. The other alternative is to have God as the primary cause of all the evil in the world, including the rape of every person who has been raped and the Holocaust of Hitler, genocides of Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc.

If God sovereignly causes all of the monstrous evil in the world - as a primary cause - what is the nature of God?

Oz
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PrettyboyAndy

• Andy •
Supporter
Sep 14, 2009
1,080
353
Toronto/NY
✟93,218.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, it means that the sovereign God has allowed secondary causes - evil people - to do evil things. The other alternative is to have God as the primary cause of all the evil in the world, including the rape of every person who has been raped and the Holocaust of Hitler, genocides of Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc.

If God sovereignly causes all of the monstrous evil in the world - as a primary cause - what is the nature of God?

Oz

God is perfect, just and good, no evil or sin can even be around him.

But my question is more:

Is everything predetermined by God, and how does our prayer have a part in that?
 
Upvote 0