Why Not Use The REAL Picture Of Jesus?!?

DaDad

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When the co2 dating says it’s 14th century and the first definitive historical mention declares it a forgery from around that period, describing the science as non conclusive is very generous.
Ummmmmm, you lack complete information.
Thanks,
DaDad
 
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Radagast

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Perhaps you should consider additional research before reaching any conclusions.

I've done more research on the Shroud than you think. All the evidence indicates that the Shroud is a medieval forgery.
 
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DaDad

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The carbon dating, from when it was extensively examined, proved to have been sampled from a medievel 'repair' done to the shroud!

Scientific evidence proved that no known 'paint' was used on the shroud

I believe it is the face of Jesus. Those that don't just need to look at 'real' information about the shroud and its make up.

Excellent. You've done your own research, and got it correct!

The carbon dating was done by a professor at the University of Arizona, and he failed to follow protocol which requires taking micro photographs (Scanning Electron Microscopy -- SEM) prior to performing his carbon dating. If he HAD taken micro photographs (SEM) he could have distinguished between the nominal Shroud versus the "repair" fabric.
-- Per personal discussion with the late Raymond Rogers, Ph.D Chemist, and former Group Leader at DX-2 (TA-9-51), Los Alamos National Laboratory.

Shroud of Turin Blog

Latest news and views on the Turin Shroud
...

LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. This hypothesis was presented by M. Sue Benford and Joseph G. Marino in Orvieto, Italy in 2000. Benford and Marino proposed that a 16th Century patch of cotton/linen material was skillfully spliced into the 1st Century original Shroud cloth in the region ultimately used for dating. The intermixed threads combined to give the dates found by the labs ranging between 1260 and 1390 AD. Benford and Marino contend that this expert repair was necessary to disguise an unauthorized relic taken from the corner of the cloth. A paper presented today at the conference by Benford and Marino, and to be published in the July/August issue of the international journal Chemistry Today, provided additional corroborating evidence for the repair theory.

Los Alamos National Laboratory team of nine scientists prove carbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin wrong


Regarding Holographic Imaging:

No one has a good idea how front and back images of a crucified man came to be on the cloth. Yes, it is possible to create images that look similar. But no one has created images that match the chemistry, peculiar superficiality and profoundly mysterious three-dimensional information content of the images on the Shroud. Again, this is all published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.
Los Alamos National Laboratory team of nine scientists prove carbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin wrong


With Best Regards,
DaDad
 
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Kaon

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First of all, when was a "negative" discovered? In the 12th century? -- NO.
Secondly, when was a "hologram" invented? In the 12th century? -- NO

Of course the list goes on, and some of those that have skeptically examined the Shroud of Turin have become convinced of it's authenticity (and ~thereby the Sudarium of Ovedio ~).

For what artist "painted" a "negative" image on the Shroud, before a "negative" was invented.
And what artist was able to paint a "hologram", EVEN TODAY KNOWING the holographic principles.

The point being, -- the Shroud conveys the TRUE image of Jesus. But if you like parlor games, then please feel free to continue ...

Thanks,
DaDad

The Shroud is what other humans have told you other humans have studied, and those humans have determined that this artifact is authentic with their own mind and intellect.

That people choose to believe those people (or even the ones who set up the intellectual foundation before them) is a matter of faith, not fact.


In reality, unless you observe and analyze it for yourself, you do not know for sure about anything (even about the date of innovations and inventions).Even then, you still cant be sure. In fact, this is precisely why every human is responsible for the trajectory of their soul, and we shouldn't have any image of heaven above, the earth, or below. Did we forget there is an entity that is hellbent on deceiving the entire lot of us? People play into this entity's hand with, or without realizing it.

The image of the Most High God is a Living Image, which means even if we assume everyone tells us the truth (despite history), and even if that was a negative of the Son of Man, He has 1) put on a new body, and 2) a radiation-bathed "negative" photo of a Son of Man undergoing transfiguration/transsubstantiation is an undocumented phenomena for which no one (unless someone wants to say otherwise) understands the effects such a process has on what we think of as a "negative" or "image".

Chasing shadows can be dangerous.
 
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Radagast

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The carbon dating was done by a professor at the University of Arizona, and he failed to follow protocol which requires taking micro photographs (Scanning Electron Microscopy -- SEM) prior to performing his carbon dating.

This is false.

The Shroud was in fact dated independently by 3 separate teams, including Oxford and Zürich.

And there is no such protocol. Microscopy is not needed before dating. However, all 3 teams did in fact examine the samples using both optical and SEM microscopy (SEM was used at least at Oxford, and the Oxford team also identified and removed some cotton fibres in their sample). All 3 teams got medieval dates. See Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin

Clearly you need to do more research on the topic.
 
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DaDad

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optical microscopy.
Micro photography. As such, Please Provide your Historical Evidence of MICRO PHOTOGRAPHY that was taken of the sample(s).

A sample of an SEM photograph:

Fig. 4. Ag-H3O-jarosite.
Reproduced from Cogram, P. F. (2016). Capacity and mechanisms of uptake of silver by jarosite family minerals. Birkbeck, University of London. PhD thesis published online.

SEM.jpg

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/scanning-electron-microscopy

Interestingly, it looks very similar to High Explosive powder! :)

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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DaDad

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DaDad

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Use it for what?

... under this same Section "The Kitchen Sink", the Topic "Do you think this picture is Jesus? Why or why not", has 108 replies. And rather than be lost in the confusion, I answered the question posed by opening a new Topic.

In ~1992 I shared an office space with Dr. Ray Rodgers, Ph.D, but he was already retired and I never met him, -- office space is often reserved for Distinguished LANL Staff Members who retire, in case they have a desire to do independent research --. However, we did have a very cordial phone conversation regarding his research on the Shroud, which brought the subject to my attention.

And although many would seek to challenge any Biblical authenticity, the Shroud is a scientifically substantiated artifact which evidence cannot be explained away. But like so many other things which are controversial, the average person typically approaches life much like my favorite Aunt when she would tease: "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts." -- The difference being, the average person isn't teasing.

It takes a little work to distinguish fact from myth, and most people aren't interested in doing much more than be ~a~ (not) ~mused~ (having thought). It's so much easier to blindly accept information than it is to critically examine it.

And so goes most of the world. But if a person is wise, they seek the deeper things. And so here I am, exhorting each Christian to be wise, exactly as GOD calls us.

Jeremiah 33:3 Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things which you have not known.

With Best Regards,
DaDad
 
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Radagast

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the Shroud is a scientifically substantiated artifact

The Shroud is proven to be a medieval forgery.

The carbon dating by three teams, the fact that it was brightly coloured in the 1300s but soon faded, and the fact that the local bishop in 1390 said that it was a forgery -- together these are definitive proof.
 
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Nithavela

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Perhaps you should consider additional research before reaching any conclusions.
Thanks,
DaDad
It appears that your metric for if someone has researched something is if that person agrees with you.
 
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DaDad

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I still remain perplexed how the OBVIOUS is ignored:

1. The Shroud is a "negative".

The photographic "negative" wasn't created until the mid-1800's.​

2. The Shroud has holographic characteristics:

No one has a good idea how front and back images of a crucified man came to be on the cloth. Yes, it is possible to create images that look similar. But no one has created images that match the chemistry, peculiar superficiality and profoundly mysterious three-dimensional information content of the images on the Shroud. Again, this is all published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.
Los Alamos National Laboratory team of nine scientists prove carbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin wrong

Given the above, why is it that no one can explain how the Shroud has technologies which defy"artistic" endeavors. In fact it's impossible to "paint" a holograph. -- But it is possible to confuse sample specimens for carbon dating, and it is possible to have ignorant people make assertions which are incorrect (i.e. some "local bishop" in "1390", -- as though he was at the tomb ... ).

It seems to me that the only explanation I can provide for the nay sayers, is as my late favorite Aunt used to tease: "My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts." -- With the only caveat being that the nay sayers aren't "teasing".

And of course, this is not salvation dependent. It's simply the ability for each of us to exercise critical thinking skills so that we may rightly divide the TRUTH of what Scripture says, what is preached from the pulpit, what is taught in Sunday School class, and what the world would try to convince us as being "true".

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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Lost4words

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I have looked into the shroud quite a bit. Watched several films about it.

It is truly amazing. It cannot be replicated exactly by any art or modern technology.

Looking under a very powerful microscope they could see that the 'image' on the shroud was only as deep as the very top layer of the material! They said that if it was paint, it would have soaked down through the layers in the cloth!

A very rare human blood was found on the wounds on the shroud.

Nobody knows how the 'image' was 'made'. It is truly a wonder.
 
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Dave-W

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My college roommate made an astute statement: whatever will keep you from the truth, from God, the devil will supply....

The shroud is a fake.
It does not fit the biblical narrative of the burial cloths of our Lord.
It has people worshipping an image, supposedly of God.
 
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