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Featured LDS Why mormons believe angels are less than gods?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Goodhuman, Dec 13, 2020.

  1. natitude

    natitude Member

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    Philippians 2:6 (KJV) Who [Christ], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
     
  2. natitude

    natitude Member

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    The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus had an origin - that the Father is the source of the Son's life.

    John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    Christ clearly didn't have life on His own without the Father's empowerment.

    Micah 5:2 (NRSV) But you, O Bethlehem of Ephratah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.

    Romans 1:4 (NIV) and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

    There clearly was a time before Christ's appointment.

    True, but unlike His Father He didn't have a physical body yet.
     
  3. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    No planets have been promised to me either. LOL
     
  4. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    True and even Jesus had to be perfected:

    (New Testament | Luke 13:31 - 33)

    31 ¶ The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
    32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
    33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Then why do you have the writings of JS and your prophets in higher regard than the actual word of God? God doesn't want lip service, He wants actual faith in His word.
     
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    It's just one of those things that your prophets have said you're entitled to and you all actual want---at least all the men, so they can have all those wives. I don't see why any woman would aspire to being one of many wives and just essentially be a dog delivering litter after litter for eternity so the man can be a God of His planet. That this is downplayed now has been evident. It was one benefit---of being in the highest regard of God, to be given this. Please do not make me look up all those quotes. I hate doing that.
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was God before He was human. He is the creator of all things---from nothing. He became human, but did not loose His divinity. He remained God. We, however, can not say the same thing. We are not divine. What is blasphemy according to the bible?

    Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
    Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
    Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
    Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    For a man to call himself God is blasphemy---Jesus did not blaspheme, for He is God. To claim to be able to forgive sins is blasphemy for God alone forgives sin. We are however, to forgive those who sin against us, but it is God alone that forgives the actual sin of that person. It is blasphemy to speak against God, or His name, or His tabernacle (which is His church)or even those who dwell in heaven. The saved have their minds on God, thus they dwell with God in heaven though they are still on earth. JS has blasphemed God's church when he said that they are all wrong and that he has the truth. Jesus is truth and He gave us His word---To speak against it by saying the writings of JS are above the writings of Jesus (His word) is blasphemy!!

    You have been lied to---Jesus is not one of the Fathers' children with one of His wives (The Father does not need a wife!) He is the ONE AND ONLY SON OF GOD THE FATHER. He is the creator of all things, from nothing, He was God with the Father before He became human in order to save His creation. He, the Father and the Holy Spirit are far more than what you have been taught, they are far above what we can understand, far above the weak, pathetic God that JS and his prophets have made them out to be. They put them down in order to magnify themselves. To say we will be Gods and equal to Him is a lie, it is blasphemy. There is only one God---before time, now and forever!

    Isa_44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
     
  8. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, angels are servants of God. We do believe that some angels are more than servants. Do we know all the aspects of what an angel intails? No, we will have to wait till we get to the other side.

    I am interested in your name handle? Blood drinker. That is interesting. Can you let us know why you chose that to identify yourself? Thank you.
     
  9. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Wrong---Jesus was God with the Father from everlasting to everlasting!! It is a blasphemous lie that He was created. He alone is the Son of God.

    Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
    He was declared (made evident) that He was the Son of God by His own resurrection after His death at the cross. This verse in no way says that Jesus is a created being.

    Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    He is from EVERLASTING.

    Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    That does not say that He was created. He lives through the Father, whom is from everlasting---so is Jesus, One God with the father from everlasting, both have life from everlasting. Jesus was never created---always one with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Anything other than that is blasphemy.
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Because we believe they are both the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of God, the BOM is the Word of God. We believe what Peter and Paul and JS said is the Word of God.
     
  11. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    No, you believe that the writings of JS are above the word of God, if there is any problem, it is his writings that take precedence over the bible--you claim his writings to be more accurate than the bible.
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    We have never said that he was created, never. That is blasphemous. Jesus has existed as long as God, his Father has existed. What we say is that Jesus has not always been equal with God, his Father.

    By the beginning of the creation of the world, Jesus was of a status of God, and created all things as John says in John 1. So in the beginning of the world, Jesus was with his God, and was a God. But in order for him to be just like his Father, God the Father, he had to be begotton into a mortal body on earth, and finish his mission of the earth, and save all mankind. Then he was resurrected, and in this perfect status, sat down on the right hand of his God, God the Father, and was finally equal with Him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    In the same way that you believe the NT takes precedence over the OT. The prophet in the presence always takes presedence over the prophets of the past.

    That is true today. Russell Nelson takes precedence over JS and Peter.

    What would you think takes precedence: A true living oracle of Jesus Christ, or the BOM or the Bible? Of course it would be the living oracle, recieving direct revelation from Jesus Christ.
     
  14. drstevej

    drstevej "The crowd always chooses Barabbas." Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Did Heavenly Mother ever make Godhood, like the Father? (Chose One)
    • Yes
    • No
    • I'm Sacred to Answer, would make Mormonism look bad
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  15. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    God wants us to love Him and keep His commandments. He wants us to be righteous. That is His word.
     
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    The NT does not take precedence over the OT---they are both needed together. They are of equal importance, esp when it comes to prophecy---Revelation can't really be understood without Daniel.
     
  17. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    So you deny what was said that Jesus was the product of the Father and one of His wives? That Jesus was His first spirit child? I really don't want to spend my time looking up all those statements. I'm tired--don't have the energy.
     
  18. natitude

    natitude Member

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    Did Jesus even create the Father? 1 Corinthians 15:27 is an interesting verse.

    (GNT) For the scripture says, "God put all things under his feet." It is clear, of course, that the words "all things" do not include God himself, who puts all things under Christ.

    Paul here reminds us that "all things" does not necessary mean every last single solitary item.

    There are exactly zero verses in the Bible that support the doctrine of creation ex-nihilo (creation from nothing).

    Here are quotes from two different scholars on the matter.

    Stanley L. Jaki, a Catholic priest of the Benedictine Order, stated:

    The caution which is in order about taking the [Hebrew] verb bara in the sense of creation out of nothing is no less needed in reference to the [English] word creation. Nothing is more natural, and unadvised, at the same time, than to use the word as if it has always denoted creation out of nothing. In its basic etymological origin the word creation meant the purely natural process of growing or of making something to grow. This should be obvious by a mere recall of the [Latin] verb crescere. The crescent moon [derived from crescere] is not creating but merely growing. The expression ex nihilo or de nihilo had to be fastened, from around 200 A.D. on, by Christian theologians on the verb creare to convey unmistakably a process, strict creation, which only God can perform. Only through the long-standing use of those very Latin expressions, creare ex nihilo and creatio ex nihilo, could the English words to create and creation take on the meaning which excludes pre-existing matter. Stanley L. Jaki, Genesis 1 Through the Ages (Royal Oak, Mich.: Real View Books, 1998), 5-6.

    Peter Hayman records:

    “Nearly all recent studies on the origin of the doctrine of creation ex nihilo have come to the conclusion that this doctrine is not native to Judaism, is nowhere attested in the Hebrew Bible, and probably arose in Christianity in the second century C. E. in the course of its fierce battle with Gnosticism.” (Peter Hayman, “Monotheism – A misused word in Jewish Studies?”)

    Latter-day Saints are not making themselves to be God - so no blasphemy here. God, of course, is offering to man a path to become like God - if and only if man will accept God's offer.

    Which of God's churches did Joseph Smith blaspheme?

    1. The ones that believe in infant baptism, or the one that reject infant baptism?
    2. The ones that require baptism, or the ones that don't?
    3. The ones that teach that infants inherit the sin of Adam, or the ones that don't?
    4. The ones that preach free-will, or the ones that preach predestination?
    5. The ones that believe in an ministerial priesthood, or the ones that don't?
    6. The ones that believe works are a component of salvation, or the ones that don't?

    BTW, Joseph Smith never said that his words were greater than those of Jesus.


    Isaiah 47:8, 10 depicts Babylon in the following way (using the same verbiage as Isaiah 44:8):

    Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:


    For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.

    Do these verses intend to state that Babylon is the only city in existence? And what about Ninevah? Zephaniah depicts Ninevah is a similar fashion.

    Zephaniah 2:15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.

    This verse does not preclude others becoming like God while God reigns. It only precludes such activity before God's reign and after God's reign.

    I did give you one of those green checks since some of your comment was accurate. Take care and God bless you.
     
  19. natitude

    natitude Member

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    One Bible scholar noted:

    Hebrew has no special terms for the past, the present, the future, or eternity. There simply was no special word for time in that language… It is what is hidden, concealed (i.e., to the vanishing point); time immemorial… the same Hebrew word can describe a short period of only three days… The Creator has been “from everlasting to everlasting.” (Psalms 90:2) Even then, it still expresses a continued, measurable existence, rather than a state of being independent of time considerations. (Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D., The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible (Chattanooga: AMG Publishers/World Bible Publishers, 1988), 1620-1621)


    Just FYI. Latter-day Saints do not believe that Jesus, nor any of us were created out of nothing at some point in time. We believe that there was something (commonly referred to as an "intelligence") of each of us that has always existed. We do believe in a process of creation "ex-materia" in which spirit and body were added to us, but the raw material of spirit and body preexisted their becoming part of each of us.

    I hope this helps...
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    You guys ask the most crazy, absurd questions!!

    The Catholics have this to say also:

    Creation Ex Nihilo is in the Bible| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)

    These verses have been posted many times, and more, but you guys reject them for what JS and BY have to say:

    Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
    By His word, indicating not from anything existing
    Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
     
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