Why Kim Davis is a martyr of Christian persecution in the U.S. Why claims of conscience matter

John 1:1 GodCZU

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Inside the First Amendment, Religion Commentary


Why claims of conscience matter

Charles C. Haynes

Director, Religious Freedom Education Project

Friday, March 9, 2012

Lest we forget, our Framers put religious liberty, or freedom of conscience, first on the list of fundamental rights protected by the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …”

Why first? In his famous “Memorial and Remonstrance,” James Madison put it this way:

“The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right.”

But today, 220 years after the ratification of the Bill of Rights, claims of conscience seeking religious exemptions from government laws and regulations are frequently the last to be heard (if they are heard at all) in debates over public policy.

Has our “first freedom” become an afterthought — or, worse yet, an annoyance?

First Amendment Center



:prayer:God be with the Christians in America.
 

tulc

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Inside the First Amendment, Religion Commentary


Why claims of conscience matter

Charles C. Haynes

Director, Religious Freedom Education Project

Friday, March 9, 2012

Lest we forget, our Framers put religious liberty, or freedom of conscience, first on the list of fundamental rights protected by the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …”

Why first? In his famous “Memorial and Remonstrance,” James Madison put it this way:

“The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right.”

But today, 220 years after the ratification of the Bill of Rights, claims of conscience seeking religious exemptions from government laws and regulations are frequently the last to be heard (if they are heard at all) in debates over public policy.

Has our “first freedom” become an afterthought — or, worse yet, an annoyance?

First Amendment Center



:prayer:God be with the Christians in America.

It's kind of ironic that you use an out of context quote from a letter James Madison wrote to fight against the idea of people trying to force their religion on others to defend someone who's trying to use their religion to deny others their rights. You might want to read the whole letter rather then just the bits that fits someones argument. You can find it here: http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions43.html
you might find this part interesting:
3. Because it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of Citizens, and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
or this:
5. Because the Bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation.
it's full of stuff like this. It's very much against the very thing Ms Davis is claiming "is her right!".
tulc(just thought this should be pointed out) :wave:
 
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Honey Parallel

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Inside the First Amendment, Religion Commentary


Why claims of conscience matter

Charles C. Haynes

Director, Religious Freedom Education Project

Friday, March 9, 2012

Lest we forget, our Framers put religious liberty, or freedom of conscience, first on the list of fundamental rights protected by the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …”

Why first? In his famous “Memorial and Remonstrance,” James Madison put it this way:

“The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right.”

But today, 220 years after the ratification of the Bill of Rights, claims of conscience seeking religious exemptions from government laws and regulations are frequently the last to be heard (if they are heard at all) in debates over public policy.

Has our “first freedom” become an afterthought — or, worse yet, an annoyance?

First Amendment Center



:prayer:God be with the Christians in America.
Certainly agree with the last part of your remarks especially. :prayer: Don't be discouraged by the hate the enemy of God has rallied against God's people. It has been so since the beginning. This is his domain after all. Take comfort in knowing God knows your heart and the scriptures comfort us in the end because God see's all and knows exactly what will transpire. What is imagined as liberation is not so. God be with you John.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NIV
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
 
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ScientArtist

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I'm a Pagan, but I couple of points to make.

1. When County Clerk Davis took her position, she swore a binding oath to her government swearing she execute the duties of her position to the best of her ability. The duties of county clerk should not clash with her morals for two reasons: 1) It is in her job description to keep morals from interfering with her job and 2) it is not her authority to issue marriage licenses. She just files the paperwork.
2. Religious ("conscience") exemptions are, by law, not allowed because they are targeted at only one group of people. How do I know? There are only 3 religions I know of that have "1 man, 1 woman" rules: Islam, Judaism, and Good Ol' Christianity. Of those three, only one holds a hyper-substantial place in America.

Anyway, that's my two bits, hate on me if you want, I'm trying to be neutral, here.
 
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LoricaLady

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I am glad that people care about Kim Davis. But it makes me sad to see so many people read this string, yet so few stopped to pray for those being persecuted, as listed in this forum. This string has over 100 views. The strings for persecuted Christians get way less views than that. What Kim Davis is going through is a picnic in the park compared to what those others are suffering. People in other countries are just as loved by Messiah as those in this country. But do we love them as much?
 
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LoricaLady

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ScientArtist - I have wondered myself if Davis ought to just resign. The Supreme Court has decided it knows better than the Almighty, Whom they obviously don't believe in anyway. They do get to set the laws of the land. For now anyway.

As for people hating on you, no, we are supposed to love on you!

Since you say you are a pagan I hope it will be okay if I digress and give a witness that I believe will bless you. See 15Decades' Youtube vid The Shroud of Turin. If you have heard the Shroud - a linen burial cloth with bloody stains and the faint image of a crucified man on it - was proven to be a medieval forgery through carbon 14 testing, well I mention that vid of many like it because there you can see the very inventor of carbon 14 dating saying the sample taken was invalid due to contamination.

In the 1970s an American scientist noticed that NASA photo imaging equipment showed photos of the Shroud to have unique and inexplicable qualities. He got up a team of scientists, called STURP, to go to Italy, to the Vatican, to examine it first hand. (No, the Shroud is not "just a Roman Catholic thing" as the Vatican has only come into possession of it somewhat recently in history.)

The scientific studies on the Shroud go into 100s of thousands of hours. You can see the results all over the net and they were published in respected science journals. The STURP team consisted of 3 Jews, at least one agnostic and one atheist, and people of various faiths. They all unanimously concluded these things: There is no paint on the Shroud and they have no clue how that image got there. The image, and the Shroud itself, perfectly match the descriptions given in the Bible of the death and burial of Messiah. The image could not be duplicated with modern technology.

There are many unbelievable, but true, features of the Shroud to be seen in that vid. There are literal miracles - things that defy the laws of science - which neither your nor anyone else can explain. That man, I believe, is your Savior. He loves you and longs for you to know and love Him too. How much he loves you is seen, in part, on that Shroud.

If you want to see some things He is up to today, if you want to see people who've been medically documented to have been raised from the dead in His Name, check out CBN (and other) vids on Dean Braxton and vids about a cardiologist, Dr. Chauncey Crandall. Dean Braxton is documented to have no heart beat and no respiration for 1 hr. 3/4. In the CBN clip you can see his critical care doctor acknowledging it is "a miracle" that Braxton is now alive and perfectly normal, saying "He was really, really dead for a long time."

Dr. Crandall told his staff to quit trying to revive a man who had no heart beat for 40 min. and was cyanotic. As he was leaving he felt led to go back and pray over the corpse. He was confused and reluctant but did so "in Jesus' Name." That patient, too, is now alive and normal.

You are going to need a miracle some day, maybe more than one. You need a miracle of salvation now. I pray you will go to the One Who can perform that miracle for you. Give Him a chance. What have you got to lose?
 
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jenny1972

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yes kim davis is a martyr for christian hypocrites everywhere . why hasnt she turned from her sin (her 4th marriage) and return to her first husband if she has repented and turned from her sin as she claims she has and is so devoted to the instructions of the old testament regarding marriage ? she is the absolute epitome of christian hypocrisy .

btw nowhere in the Bible does it speak against gay marriage , the old testament only speaks about homosexuality . regarding marriage it does speak against divorce for any reason outside adultery , how many divorced people did she refuse to give liscences to because it goes against what is in the Bible ? none ! she has a personal bias against a certain group of people if her actions were really in respect of the old testament she would likewise have have an issue with many heterosexual couples seeking marriage liscences .
 
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jenny1972

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Lest we forget, our Framers put religious liberty, or freedom of conscience, first on the list of fundamental rights protected by the First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …”

yes but thankfully our framers also thought it wise to have separation of church and state so that the population was not held hostage by just anyones personal religious views and interpretations . kim davis has a right to resign from a government job and get a job at a church if she does not want to obey any laws except certain old testament laws that she agrees with .
 
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abysmul

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So, an adult male and an adult female decide they want to be married... they call up their friend, an anti-theist, and ask her to marry them... they all get together and the anti-theist pronounces that in the name of nothingness and the almighty flying spaghetti monster the couple is forever man and wife... ARE THEY MARRIED? What if they get Kim Davis to sign the proper paper work? Is marriage ordained and defined by God or by man?
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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I once walked out of a job because a friend of mine was being misstreated because he was black. I think myartyrdom means making a personal sacrifice to a cause you think just.

She make no such thing and as such she deserves no accolades other that of God, since it is he who she states that she acknowledges.

If she had resigned, that would have been differant. I could respect that. What see did was place a burden on those she refused to grant licences to and some of them were strieght.
 
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jenny1972

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If she had resigned, that would have been differant. I could respect that. What see did was place a burden on those she refused to grant licences to and some of them were strieght.

according to the old testament , according to her own logic , she should also refuse liscences to previously divorced people but yes she should resign if she can no longer do the job and really she should return any money that she has been paid since she is now refusing to do her job at all and is just taking advantage of a system that cannot fire her . But i can see her continuing to take advantage and taking as much money as she can until she is forced out of her elected office . apparently according to her the Bible doesnt address unfair business practices , theft , or remarriage ...
 
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LoricaLady

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Messiah said that in the last days it would be as in the days of Noah and as in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Much persecution of Christians is also spoken of for that time. I can't say that Kim Davis is doing the right (or anyway legally defensible) thing, in fact I think that she should probably ask for a transfer to another position. But it is also true that more and more laws are being passed which violate Christian beliefs and practices. I heard recently of an older lady who had made cakes for birthday parties for gay people, had no problem with that. When she protested on making a cake for a gay wedding, though, the attorney general came after her. And look what happened with the mass shooting today where Christians were reportedly especially targeted. It's the last days. Time to get as close to Messiah as possible.
 
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Those who equate the "plight" of Christians in the USA today to real, historical, persecution of Christians... wow... just.... wow...

Ditto equating it to those suffering and dying for their faith today in many countries.
 
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heatedmonk

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I am glad that people care about Kim Davis. But it makes me sad to see so many people read this string, yet so few stopped to pray for those being persecuted, as listed in this forum. This string has over 100 views. The strings for persecuted Christians get way less views than that. What Kim Davis is going through is a picnic in the park compared to what those others are suffering. People in other countries are just as loved by Messiah as those in this country. But do we love them as much?

I think what many people miss is that the horrific persecution and even execution of Christians in other countries, started with the kind of abuses we see Christians in America suffering now. So just because atheists aren't lopping the heads off Baptists yet, doesn't mean verbal abuse, threats against free exercise, isn't happening. And isn't perilous as a threat at that level so as to escalate to far worse later on.

Because when oppression is excused as it often is by those who make the feeble argument, well , it's not that bad and they're not suffering like other Christians are elsewhere and who are being killed, that's how the oppressors gain ground. Indifference touted by those not affected. Dismissal of the impact of such trespasses by those who argue they are benign and no real threat at all in comparison to....

Peoples indifference, some peoples pleasure even in watching what anti-Christian proponents claim is Christian privilege, being imperiled are what motivate the agenda that wants to quash the Christian religion entirely. But it has to start somewhere and it has to seemingly be benign in order to grow into the chronic level of threat. And what motivates that growth are those who disparage Christians and argue that for far too long they've enjoyed a privilege not entitled them and therefore need to be taken down a notch. And it is those type arguments in any form that give rise to the evolution of the oppression growing in strength and scope.

For instance, we teach our children in school all about the Constitution. The Bill of Rights. Then at graduation prior to, the ACLU and the FFRF meet with the principle of the school and forewarn him or her about the upcoming commencement speeches. And how there better not be any mention of God in them by students or else.....

In effect, those groups are hoping to teach our children that the Bill of Rights stops at the podium at graduation if they have it in their mind to thank God when they graduated Summa Cum Laude.

But that's OK, some will argue, because of the separation clause in the Constitution.

No, it is not OK. And that clause has not one iota of relevance in that graduation ceremony. That individual student and citizen of the United States of America is practicing the free exercise of their right to speak freely and invoke their religious freedom in thanking the deity of their choice for assistance in causing them to achieve that award.And it is perfectly allowed.

In fact, threatening that student to stand mute in that regard, is a legal offense that can have the ACLU and the FFRF on the receiving end of the lawsuits they thought they'd threaten the school with if the school didn't censor the students. Students who being they are graduating are no longer under the authority of that school. And that school cannot withhold their graduation certificate for non-compliance to the order to refrain from giving thanks to God.
Most will notice it is the Christian's God that is the foremost concern of the ACLU and the FFRF.

Should that school withhold that graduation certificate because the student defied an illegal order to refrain from thanking God during their commencement speech, that's another lawsuit.

What bolsters groups like the ACLU and the FFRF is money. They imagine those they target don't have the deep pockets the ACLU and the FFRF have in order to fight for their civil rights.

And that is how the greater oppression starts and began in those countries where today Christians are martyred in death by rich governments who know their targets are afraid or poor and are unable to afford to fight against what is now a full blown terrorist assault on their religious liberties. But it started out by taking the little rights and freedoms first. And when no resistance was able to be mustered against that, the restrictions grew.

This is why it is imperative no Christian, or anyone of faith for that matter, resign themselves to the propaganda that tells them their rights are being trespassed upon because it is necessary, it is legal, it isn't that bad, it's for the common good, it's because they offend others not of the same mind set, or any other reason there is given that thinks to convince a people that those inalienable guarantees in the , and the words here are key, BILL OF RIGHTS, are revocable on whim of those opposed.

And a for instance starts when the term Martyr is made to appear less than what it is, so as to imply to those unaware that until someone is killed they do not qualify as such. Misrepresentation and obfuscation of the facts is another inroad , another tactic, of those who are intent on stealing your religious liberties in small increments at first. Evidenced when they fail to post the full truth of the definition of Martyr!


martyr
[mahr-ter]
noun
1.a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2.a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause:
a martyr to the cause of social justice.
3.a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering:
a martyr to severe headaches.
4.a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.
verb (used with object)
5.to make a martyr of, especially by putting to death.
6.to torment or torture.

(Continues In Full including word origins map)
 
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Armoured

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