Why Jesus won't reign on this Earth for 1,000 years

ewq1938

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As to the end. What end? Would it not be the end of the person's life, or the 2nd coming, whichever comes first?

I see it as the end of this age, before the millennial age, since that is when Christ gives the saints the power over the nations.
 
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DavidPT

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I see it as the end of this age, before the millennial age, since that is when Christ gives the saints the power over the nations.


Let's see if we can get on the same page here then. Let's say someone overcame, and kept His works, in the 18th century, as an example. How could that person keep His works until the end of the age if he or she died prior to the end of this age, yet still overcame, and still kept His works to his or her dying breath?
 
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ewq1938

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Let's see if we can get on the same page here then. Let's say someone overcame, and kept His works, in the 18th century, as an example. How could that person keep His works until the end of the age if he or she died prior to the end of this age, yet still overcame, and still kept His works to his or her dying breath?

The passage isn't clear if the overcomers died or not. It really doesn't matter because when Christ returns the dead are resurrected and the living are gathered and both are overcomers who will be given power over the nations after "the end".
 
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DavidPT

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The passage isn't clear if the overcomers died or not. It really doesn't matter because when Christ returns the dead are resurrected and the living are gathered and both are overcomers who will be given power over the nations after "the end".


It's probably not worth you and I debating any of this since we are on the same page as to when the power is initially given over the nations unto the overcomers.

I don't know how Amil makes some of these things work with their view? The nations in mind here have to be consisting of mortals in order for the text in Revelation 2:26-27 to make any sense at all.
 
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One Son

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It's probably not worth you and I debating any of this since we are on the same page as to when the power is initially given over the nations unto the overcomers.

I don't know how Amil makes some of these things work with their view? The nations in mind here have to be consisting of mortals in order for the text in Revelation 2:26-27 to make any sense at all.


Rev.21:1(KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


Jn.3:27 John(the baptist) answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.


2Cor.5:21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
 
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ewq1938

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Eh, all scripture no personal commentary or explanation.


Rev.21:1(KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


Jn.3:27 John(the baptist) answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.


2Cor.5:21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
 
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One Son

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Eh, all scripture no personal commentary or explanation.


Deut.4:1(KJV) Now therefore hearken, O Israel,unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Prov.30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Rev.22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.




Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:(Heb.10:5)
 
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ebedmelech

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The second coming isn't enough of a future context? All the verses show a future rod of iron reign that only begins after the second coming.
The second coming is for the resurrection of all and final judgement. The debate at hand is "is Christ ruling and reigning right now? I've posted passages where it's very clear Christ has full power at the right hand of God since He was raised. Look at Matthew 28:18 as He commissions the apostles (the Italics are mine:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (notice the past tense..."all authority "HAS BEEN GIVEN". Jesus also makes it clear where His authority is...IN HEAVEN and ON EARTH)

Jesus now commissions them on the basis that he has "all authority":
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”


If Jesus is with them "EVEN TO THE END OF THE AGE", it's pretty clear His authority goes to that extent too.

The thousand years is the first time in history Satan is imprisoned and cannot deceive people. After the end of the thousand years Satan and the unsaved will be cast into the LOF and the NHNE will begin. The thousand year rod of iron rule is a Christian Theocracy during which Christ and his saints rule over everyone in the world. Obviously there is no Christian Theocracy right now as the majority of the world rejects Christ and is either atheist or involved in false religions. That won't be the case during the real thousand years.
Not so. You have to understand how Satan is bound. Jesus tells it to the Pharisees after He had cast out a demon in Matthew 12:25-29:
25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
27 If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.
28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.


This is how Satan is bound..and it happened at the cross! Satan is bound by the work of Jesus at the cross. This is what Jesus means when he started His ministry! He said in Luke 4:16-19:
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.
17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

That is how Satan is bound...by Jesus at the cross...everyone that is saved. Satan has been bound since the the cross. Why do you think Jesus says in John 8:36:
36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
 
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ebedmelech

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Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

What about these parts? But that which ye have already hold fast till I come---And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end

As to the latter, doesn't one first have to keep His works to the end? Then if they manage to do that, He will then reward them with power over the nations? As to the end. What end? Would it not be the end of the person's life, or the 2nd coming, whichever comes first?

Let's say one managed to overcome, and kept His works to the end, IOW until their dying breath. How then are they given power over the nations after they have died unless they are bodily resurrected first? And if there are no one but immortal saints remaining, why would immortal saints need power over the nations if everyone are immortal saints who are dwelling on the earth at this point?
Revelation 1:4-6:
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.


Everything Jesus said there, is why He says what He says in the passages you provide. Every believer is in that status and reigning with Christ NOW. Please note it says Jesus is ALREADY "the ruler of the kings of earth".
 
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ewq1938

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Please note it says Jesus is ALREADY "the ruler of the kings of earth".

Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Mat 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
Mat 21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

Being a ruler or King does not mean that authority is exercised at that moment. He was a King yet he did not try to rule over anyone here. The time to use that authority comes at the 7th trump when He returns, not now and not in the past.

All these scripture affirm this fact:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saints reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.

second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 
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DavidPT

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Please note it says Jesus is ALREADY "the ruler of the kings of earth".


Even though He already is, He still won't be when He physically returns then? But if He still is, why does everything have to be applicable to this age only? Why can't some of it also be applicable to the next age?
 
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BABerean2

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The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Notice that the potter does not correct the flawed pottery with the rod of Iron. Instead, He destroys it. (See Psalm 2)

This agrees with 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

.
 
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DavidPT

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Notice that the potter does not correct the flawed pottery with the rod of Iron. Instead, He destroys it. (See Psalm 2)

This agrees with 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

.



Explain why 'rule' in the NT means the following then?

poimainw
poimaino
poy-mah'-ee-no
from poimhn - poimen 4166; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.

The following are a few passages where this same Greek word is used.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed(poimaino) the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1 Corinthians 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth(poimaino) a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

John 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed(poimaino) my sheep.

Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall(poimaino) rule my people Israel.


Which of these verses above does poimaino mean what you are taking it mean?
 
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BABerean2

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Explain why 'rule' in the NT means the following then?

poimainw
poimaino
poy-mah'-ee-no
from poimhn - poimen 4166; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.

Because that Greek word is used to help represent what God said in the passage below.

The shepherd also slaughters the cattle when he decides to do so.


Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

What part of verse 9 above do you not understand?

.
 
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ebedmelech

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Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
Mat 21:6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
Mat 21:7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
This holds no water as an argument because this is prior to the resurrection of Christ. When Christ was raised...it was God that gave Him the authority. Ephesians 1:18-22 makes that clear...BIG difference!

Being a ruler or King does not mean that authority is exercised at that moment. He was a King yet he did not try to rule over anyone here. The time to use that authority comes at the 7th trump when He returns, not now and not in the past.
In the OT we see all kinds of evil and war...yet we would not dare to say that God is not in authority.
Is Jesus exercising authority when He commissions the apostles?
*or Appears to Paul on the road to Damascus?
*or when Peter heals the cripple in the name of Jesus?
*or when Peter is freed from jail?
*or when he empowers Peter and Paul to do the great miracles they did?

All that happened because Jesus reigns at the right hand of the Father. You're correct...when one has authority...they choose when to exercise it...and that's what Jesus does...and on His authority the church keeps growing, nations have risen and fallen and kings have been put up and down. Right now every head of nations are in their positions because that's the way Jesus wants it and He exercises His authority as He pleases.

All these scripture affirm this fact:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Interesting you didn't include 11:16-19. It was Jesus who opened the temple in heaven upon His resurrection. This is just another confirmation of Matthew 28:18

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saints reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.
Didn't Jesus say "All power was given Him in heaven and on earth"...we reign by Jesus authority!

second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
This is judgement...that's what the second coming is all about and we know Jesus has that authority because of Matthew 28:18 and other scriptures saying so.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now this...you simply don't get. These are tribulation saints...they're already in heaven. The apostles will be sitting on those thrones judging because Jesus told them they would in Matthew 19:28. They've been reigning with Christ since He commissioned them as well as those believers martyred in the tribulation, and when Jerusalem fell.
 
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ebedmelech

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Even though He already is, He still won't be when He physically returns then? But if He still is, why does everything have to be applicable to this age only? Why can't some of it also be applicable to the next age?
Well...did not Paul say that in Ephesians 1:18-22...have you ever read that?
 
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DavidPT

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Because that Greek word is used to help represent what God said in the passage below.

The shepherd also slaughters the cattle when he decides to do so.


Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

What part of verse 9 above do you not understand?

.


Two can play at this game. :) What part of to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.---do you not understand?
 
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ewq1938

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Two can play at this game. :) What part of to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.---do you not understand?


Agreed.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Barnes:


As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers - The ironic here is that of the vessel of a potter - a fragile vessel of clay - struck with a rod of iron and broken into fragments. That is, as applied to the nations, there would be no power to oppose His rule; the enemies of his government would be destroyed. Instead of remaining firm and compacted together, they would be broken like the clay vessel of a potter when struck with a rod of iron.

The notion of breaking a nation or kingdom up so it is powerless is nothing new in scripture:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.


The kingdom of God which Christ rules will break up the existing kingdoms of the nations leaving the people powerless to rebel. This is when the reign of the rod of iron over these nations takes place for a thousand years.

There is another use of a vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.

Barnes:

As the breaking of the potter’s vessel - That is, as an earthen, fragile vessel, which is easily dashed to pieces. The image here is all drawn from the bursting forth, or the complete ruin of the swelling wall; but the sense is, that the Jewish republic would be entirely broken, scattered, demolished.




Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Barnes:

Psalms 2:9

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron - That is, evidently, thine enemies, for it cannot be supposed to be meant that he would sway such a scepter over his own people. The idea is that he would crush and subdue all his foes. He would have absolute power, and the grant which had been made to him would be accompanied with authority sufficient to hold it. That dominion which was to be conceded to him would be not only one of protection to his friends, but also of punishment on his enemies; and the statement here is made prominent because the former part of the psalm had respect to rebels, and the Messiah is here represented as being invested with power sufficient to punish and restrain them. The Vulgate renders this “thou shalt rule;” the Septuagint, “thou shalt feed - p??µa?e??? poimaneis; that is, thou shalt feed them as a shepherd does his flock; thou shalt exercise over them the care and protection of a shepherd.


So, all the evidence shows that it is very likely these people are cared for in a physical sense as well as a spiritual sense which would be receiving the gospel and all that it entails.

Kings and Priests help Christ rule over unsaved mortals. And the word rule means to Shepherd which means to take care for. Same job a King has, and the job of a Priest is to minister in a religious way. All this during a time Satan cannot deceive anyone for the first time in human history. When you add all of this up, you have perfect situation for the possibility of repentance.



Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

"Rule"
G4165
p??µa?´??
poimaino¯
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.


To tend is to take care of! A supervisor watches over his employees, not kill them! A shepherd controls and protects his flock and that is the type of rule that shall be not the judgment and destruction of the wicked during the Millennium. They are protected from the deceptions of satan for the entire thousand years. It is clear error to mix the concept of shepherding with judging and punishing and killing. In addition, they will have no way to group and form together to rebel during this time which is expressed by the vessels being broken up. The pieces are individuals and the vessels represented the previous way they had been grouped together in opposition to Christ.
 
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BABerean2

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Two can play at this game. :) What part of to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.---do you not understand?

The part where the shepherd never slaughters any of his cattle...


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