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Why It’s Hard to Dialogue With Secularists and Leftists

Discussion in 'OBOB General Politics Forum' started by Michie, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. Michie

    Michie Perch Perkins. Catholic reporter. ;) Supporter

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    8-24-13

    Continued- Why It’s Hard to Dialogue With Secularists and Leftists‏ : Catholic Stand
     
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  2. AMDG

    AMDG Tenderized for Christ

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    Great article. Oh wow! The author is Leila Miller! If it's the one I'm thinking of, I "met" her on Catholic Exchange years ago. Her story was in the book "Prodigal Daughters".
     
  3. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    These are just typical examples of the way the liberal mind works; they think with their hearts instead of their heads, and far too often, their cockeyed ideas about "fairness" and "tolerance" win out over plain common sense.

    Yeah; these are classic examples of "detatched" thinking. Robert Jay Lifton wrote a book about it. These are the people who are so indoctrinated with a concept that both rational thought and human empathy disappear or are suppressed to make way for the concept; this type of psychological device is what allowed the Nazis to operate their camps and murder people by the hundreds of thousands. Peter Singer would have made a splendid Nazi---he is cut from the exact same bolt of cloth that gave us Reinhard Heydrich, Theodor Eicke, Rudolf Hoess, Franz Stangl, Amon Goeth and Adolf Eichmann: smug, superior, completely certain of himself, and absolutely, utterly devoid of all human compassion and feeling.
     
  4. LoAmmi

    LoAmmi Dispassionate

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    I find it hard to believe that so many people can't express their views consistently. Heck, I've been around for a while and I've always asked for people to point out inconsistency in my views.
    My views:
    Fully human at birth as that is when I believe we receive a soul. However, the process of gestation should not be interrupted except in the case to save the mother's life.

    I've stuck to that view on abortion on this forum for as long as I can remember. (The people who like to call me simply pro-choice or assume I believe certain things when I have never expressed them make me laugh at this point.)

    I guess people don't think about their views enough to answer the tough questions.
     
  5. catholicbybirth

    catholicbybirth St. Louis, pray for me.

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    Or not answer the tough questions honestly. I love the Socratic method of learning. Taking everything to its logical conclusion.

    Janice
     
  6. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    I imagine that if the tables were turned Ms. Miller would have some trouble answering some of the liberals' questions, too.

    Dialogue involves active listening with the heart--as opposed to an interrogation, which is what Miller appears to be doing.

    So perhaps her statement should be changed to: I enjoy interrogating liberals....

    a more accurate accounting, which would leave her time to contemplate why no one wants to be interrogated.
     
  7. catholicbybirth

    catholicbybirth St. Louis, pray for me.

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    Go ahead, quiz us.

    Janice
     
  8. hsilgne

    hsilgne Frustrated in Hooterville.

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    There are 4 countries in the world where it is legal to have abortions through out the full term of the pregnancy.

    China
    North Korea
    USA
    Canada

    Gee... that's some attractive company we're hanging with there. The two most prevalent human rights violators in the world.

    Yet the media continues to label us pro-lifers here as the 'radicals'...'right wing extremists'...

    Excuse me?

    WE are the radical extremists??

    .... I don't think so scooter.
     
  9. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    I don't want to quiz other people and I don't want to be quizzed. I think that the basis of productive dialogue is when the listener can really understand the speaker's point of view. This happens in the therapeutic activity of "active listening" and giving feedback by repeating what was said by the speaker in order to ascertain whether the listener has truly understood the speaker.

    By using the Socratic method, she is assuming the role of 'teacher.' She has the unexpressed point-of-view of "I'm going to teach these pro-choicers a thing or two..." I can even picture her scowling and lifting her shoulders as she contemplates trying to beat some sense into the heads of those she imagines are numbskulls.

    I, on the other hand, respect your spiritual journey. I recognize that your cultural and spiritual experiences have brought you to the place you are right now, and that mine have brought me to the place I am right now. God isn't finished with either of us yet. If God wants me (or you) to change, He will place experiences on our paths that will change us.
     
  10. AMDG

    AMDG Tenderized for Christ

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    Snipped to portion addressed.

    Maybe HE already has and she is it. :holy:
     
  11. catholicbybirth

    catholicbybirth St. Louis, pray for me.

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    So, you believe that everyone is believing what God wants them to believe?

    Or do you think that no one can resist to change if God wants someone to change? I believe that people can resist God, for that is where sin comes in.

    Janice
     
  12. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    In the first place, I think that God sees us wholistically, whereas Ms. Miller sees people as needing to pass some litmus test.

    I personally know both pro-choice and pro-life people who are wonderful, committed, and compassionate, each in their own ways.

    I try very hard to see people as God does, wholistically, and, with the exception of gun owners and gun rights activists, I think I succeed.

    My extreme aversion to gun ownership helps me to understand the point of view of militant pro-lifers like Ms. Miller better, because I express my love for human life through my desire to have a gun-free nation. And so you see it serves a positive purpose.
     
  13. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    So can we extrapolate from your comments that there are some "doctors" who perform 3rd trimester abortions who are wonderful and delightful individuals?
     
  14. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    I see you're trying to use the Socratic method, like Ms. Miller.

    I try not to define members of any groups by their most extreme examples. I wouldn't identify most pro-lifers with people who bomb abortion clinics, either.
     
  15. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    Your using obfuscation.
     
  16. MikeK

    MikeK Traditionalist Catholic

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    That is a false statement. It is based on a based on an oft-repeated and somewhat factual (if misleading, likely intentionally) statement that only those 4 countries allow abortion-on-demand for any reason at any stage of a pregnancy. What this statement fails to account for is that fact that countless countries allow for what amounts to the same result, though they require the mother to make a statement indicating that she is exhausted or depressed or suffering from financial difficulties. That kind of sounds like every 3rd trimester pregnant woman I've known.
     
  17. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    people

    This post is about Ms. Miller's article. I question the entire basis of her article, because she is not trying to engage people in dialogue. She is trying to interrogate them.

    Dialogue takes two parties willing to engage in conversation in a respectful and mutual self-disclosure.

    The reason why people don't put up with Ms. Miller's interrogations is self-evident.
     
  18. AMDG

    AMDG Tenderized for Christ

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    I think she is trying to engage people in dialog, just as she says. At the same time she does not think of the people so poorly as to accept half arguments. She instead, rather gently, asks questions that allow them to state their beliefs (and consider those arguments taken to their logical conclusions probably for the first time in their lives.)

    I don't think the article was a defense of what the Church and science believe (which obviously she accepts), but simply a statement of some of the things said to her by those on the left. IMO her blog title, "the Catholic Bubble", sort of almost humorously "admits" that to be Catholic is to be counter-cultural and that these are the usual arguments against life and for abortion that Catholics normally have to listen to if they too engage the left on this controversial subject.
     
  19. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    It also does not necessarily give a clear view of what is going on in those four countries. I don't know about the other three, but Canada has not exactally got a law saying women can get an abortion at any point. Rather, there is a lack of a law - after the old laws were struck down, no one has been able to come up with something most people can agree on. That is not good, but also not the same as an agreement that it is good to have 3rd trimester abortions for no real reason.

    You would also be very hard pressed to find a doctor to provide a 3rd trimester abortion without real medical reasons to do so - probably near impossible. PEI does not even have a doctor that does abortions at all - women have to go out of province.

    So that it is allowed does not really indicate that there are a lot of it going on.
     
  20. MikeK

    MikeK Traditionalist Catholic

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    I don't have any real difficulty establishing a dialogue with leftists or secularists or athiests or Catholics or Muslims or Jews or Jawas (toohenee!). I have a hard time with cowards who do not wish to be challenged and prefer to hide in a cocoon of agreeable compatriots, but these folks live all over the political and religious spectrum.
     
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