Why is there so much hate in fundamentalism toward Catholics and Orthodox

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Nothing makes me angrier than anti-Catholic bigotry. I deal with it on another forum I frequent less and less these days. This forum is tame by comparison.

Like I said, I do not lump all into one category. I'm willing to take you on faith.

However, in the past, there was extreme hatred here of Fundamentalists by Catholics. So much so that the "Debate a Fundamentalist" and "Ask a Fundamentalist" areas were shut down.

I just will not tolerate anyone coming here and telling us how wrong our beliefs are.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If the link is not historical then what is it? Similarity is not grounds for suggesting a definitive link that matters (which is why I consider historical links more important than superficial similarities). The Donatists were radicals who believed the baptiser mattered when baptising. The Anabaptists presumably believe the only thing that mattered was the individual who was being baptised confessed God. So while both might have re-baptised, they did so for different reasons and so I think the link you are suggesting is superficial. Presumably both would, if given the opportunity to meet, completely anathematise each other.

It's superficial in that the only thing that unites them is that they didn't accept the Orthodoxy of the day.

So how is it you make the definitive correlation between the Donatists and Anabaptists actually matter? How can it be said that the reformation began with the Donatists? There's no historical link (as you seem to concede) and there were different motivations behind the theology of both groups. surely resistance to the historical church is not grounds to be considered part of the reformation, or else all sorts of groups should be included as part of the reformation (Bogomils, Socinians, etc).

Again, its a matter of viewpoints.

The Donatists were "re-baptizers".

The very meaning of Anabaptist is "re-baptizers".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So how is it you make the definitive correlation between the Donatists and Anabaptists actually matter?

‘Anabaptist’ was only one of several damning epithets used to discredit, rather than merely describe, the various radical groups that emerging across Europe in the first half of the 16th century. ‘Anabaptist’ was especially damaging because it invoked a centuries-old threat of capital punishment against re-baptisers. The epithet ‘Donatist’ carried a similar implication, recalling the North African movement that insisted on re-baptising those whom the Catholic churches had already baptised.

But labelling the Anabaptist groups ‘Donatists’ also suggested they shared another characteristic with the earlier movement – the search for a pure and spotless church.

Such labels seemed to those who used them justified by the Anabaptists’ emphasis on ‘following’ Christ, their limited enthusiasm for forensic understandings of salvation, their practice of the ban to keep the church pure, their literalistic interpretation of New Testament texts and their insistence on separation from the world. Anabaptists were accused of moralism, legalism and perfectionism.

What are we to make of these accusations? Were the Anabaptists guilty as charged? They were evidently re-baptisers, but were they perfectionists? Were they Donatists, Pelagians and even new monastics?

So why were 16th-century Anabaptists regarded as perfectionists and labelled in ways that suggested this? Let’s consider first some of the assumptions that their accusers held as they watched with alarm this spreading movement.

  • At least since the 4th century most European Christians had accepted that the church would be impure and mixed until the return of Christ. Perfection was an eschatological hope, not a present aspiration. The Parable of the Weeds was widely used to provide biblical undergirding for this position (despite the fact that the text explicitly interprets the field as the world, rather than the church: see Matthew 13:38). Those who espoused a vision of a pure church were out of step with the teaching of the Christendom theologians and were accused of perfectionism.
  • At the end of the 4th century and early in the 5th century, perfectionism was at the heart of the debates between Augustine and Pelagius and Augustine and the Donatists. Pelagius appeared to Augustine to be advocating perfectionism at an individual level; the Donatists were advocating this at a congregational level. He opposed both vigorously, interpreting the Parable of the Weeds4 as indicating a mixed church throughout human history, and triumphed over both his adversaries, ensuring that Donatism and Pelagianism would become insults in future theological controversies.
  • In particular (here comes my hobby horse!), we may want to ponder the connection between the 4th-century Christendom shift and the issue of perfectionism. Donatism arose during the 4th century and, among other things, represented a protest against the lower standards in discipleship and church life that the Christendom shift seemed to be producing.

Is what Christendom theologians labelled ‘perfectionism’, then, actually a yearning for whole-hearted discipleship at both personal and corporate levels? Were the 16th-century Anabaptists doing any more than recovering this persistent longing at a time when two-tier Christianity was under threat from others for different reasons? Will it do simply to label this persistent longing ‘Pelagian’ or ‘Donatist’? Or do we have here another example of the Christendom mindset distorting perspectives. Is perfectionism (or however we label this) actually the stance of any who dissent from the nominality and ethical compromise that seems to have been inherent in the Christendom system?

Having said all this, though, we need to consider another possibility – namely, that perfectionism is a distorted response to the distorting perspective of the Christendom mindset. The dissidents may have rightly protested against the low moral standards and corrupt structures of the Christendom churches; they may indeed have practised a higher level of discipleship that confused the inquisitors; but did the momentum of their protests carry them too far in the opposite direction? Was there some truth, after all, in the accusations of perfectionism levelled against Anabaptists and others?"

Pelagians, Donatists, Monks, Anabaptists and other Perfectionists, by Stuart Murray
Williams

You say potato, I say potatoe.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
7,064
3,767
✟290,342.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
‘Anabaptist’ was only one of several damning epithets used to discredit, rather than merely describe, the various radical groups that emerging across Europe in the first half of the 16th century. ‘Anabaptist’ was especially damaging because it invoked a centuries-old threat of capital punishment against re-baptisers. The epithet ‘Donatist’ carried a similar implication, recalling the North African movement that insisted on re-baptising those whom the Catholic churches had already baptised.

But labelling the Anabaptist groups ‘Donatists’ also suggested they shared another characteristic with the earlier movement – the search for a pure and spotless church.

Such labels seemed to those who used them justified by the Anabaptists’ emphasis on ‘following’ Christ, their limited enthusiasm for forensic understandings of salvation, their practice of the ban to keep the church pure, their literalistic interpretation of New Testament texts and their insistence on separation from the world. Anabaptists were accused of moralism, legalism and perfectionism.

What are we to make of these accusations? Were the Anabaptists guilty as charged? They were evidently re-baptisers, but were they perfectionists? Were they Donatists, Pelagians and even new monastics?

So why were 16th-century Anabaptists regarded as perfectionists and labelled in ways that suggested this? Let’s consider first some of the assumptions that their accusers held as they watched with alarm this spreading movement.

  • At least since the 4th century most European Christians had accepted that the church would be impure and mixed until the return of Christ. Perfection was an eschatological hope, not a present aspiration. The Parable of the Weeds was widely used to provide biblical undergirding for this position (despite the fact that the text explicitly interprets the field as the world, rather than the church: see Matthew 13:38). Those who espoused a vision of a pure church were out of step with the teaching of the Christendom theologians and were accused of perfectionism.
  • At the end of the 4th century and early in the 5th century, perfectionism was at the heart of the debates between Augustine and Pelagius and Augustine and the Donatists. Pelagius appeared to Augustine to be advocating perfectionism at an individual level; the Donatists were advocating this at a congregational level. He opposed both vigorously, interpreting the Parable of the Weeds4 as indicating a mixed church throughout human history, and triumphed over both his adversaries, ensuring that Donatism and Pelagianism would become insults in future theological controversies.
  • In particular (here comes my hobby horse!), we may want to ponder the connection between the 4th-century Christendom shift and the issue of perfectionism. Donatism arose during the 4th century and, among other things, represented a protest against the lower standards in discipleship and church life that the Christendom shift seemed to be producing.
Is what Christendom theologians labelled ‘perfectionism’, then, actually a yearning for whole-hearted discipleship at both personal and corporate levels? Were the 16th-century Anabaptists doing any more than recovering this persistent longing at a time when two-tier Christianity was under threat from others for different reasons? Will it do simply to label this persistent longing ‘Pelagian’ or ‘Donatist’? Or do we have here another example of the Christendom mindset distorting perspectives. Is perfectionism (or however we label this) actually the stance of any who dissent from the nominality and ethical compromise that seems to have been inherent in the Christendom system?

Having said all this, though, we need to consider another possibility – namely, that perfectionism is a distorted response to the distorting perspective of the Christendom mindset. The dissidents may have rightly protested against the low moral standards and corrupt structures of the Christendom churches; they may indeed have practised a higher level of discipleship that confused the inquisitors; but did the momentum of their protests carry them too far in the opposite direction? Was there some truth, after all, in the accusations of perfectionism levelled against Anabaptists and others?"

Pelagians, Donatists, Monks, Anabaptists and other Perfectionists, by Stuart Murray
Williams

You say potato, I say potatoe.

God Bless

Till all are one.

So the only connection you are suggesting is that they wanted to return to what they perceived to be "pure Christianity?" This hardly suggests the roots of the reformation beginning with the Donatists anymore than suggesting the Gnostics, who held to a "secret Apostolic gospel" were trying to attain their view of authentic and 'pure Christianity.' So I think it is appropriate to bring up if there is no historical connection between the reformation and the Donatists and only a small thematic connection, how do you say they initiated the process of reformation?

You could say by this reasoning Arrius wanted to return to what he perceived to be authentic Christianity, a Christianity which did not confuse God with the creature and understood Christ's place. That was probably his sincere motivation though he was wrong. No one, no one who cares about theology, wants to exceed the boundaries of the Apostolic faith and everyone wants to remain faithful to the deposit, Heretic and Orthodox alike.

What I'm failing to see is how a similar thematic emphasis amounts to a legitimate connection to the point where we can say that the reformation began with the Donatists. There have been many movements which have sought to displace the prevailing Orthodoxy before the reformation, why signal the Donatists out as reformation predecessors? Did the Anabaptists claim affinity with the Donatists?

The Hussites can rightly be called a predecessor of the reformation as could the Lollards because we can see the influence their leaders had down to the leaders of all sides of the Protestant reformation.

Also to call the Anabaptists, Anabaptists because they literally baptise again, doesn't seem all that wrong to me. It is a literal description of who they are, much like it is appropriate to call a Lutheran Luther because they follow the thought of Luther and belong to the Church he left behind.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So the only connection you are suggesting is that they wanted to return to what they perceived to be "pure Christianity?" This hardly suggests the roots of the reformation beginning with the Donatists anymore than suggesting the Gnostics, who held to a "secret Apostolic gospel" were trying to attain their view of authentic and 'pure Christianity.' So I think it is appropriate to bring up if there is no historical connection between the reformation and the Donatists and only a small thematic connection, how do you say they initiated the process of reformation?

You could say by this reasoning Arrius wanted to return to what he perceived to be authentic Christianity, a Christianity which did not confuse God with the creature and understood Christ's place. That was probably his sincere motivation though he was wrong. No one, no one who cares about theology, wants to exceed the boundaries of the Apostolic faith and everyone wants to remain faithful to the deposit, Heretic and Orthodox alike.

What I'm failing to see is how a similar thematic emphasis amounts to a legitimate connection to the point where we can say that the reformation began with the Donatists. There have been many movements which have sought to displace the prevailing Orthodoxy before the reformation, why signal the Donatists out as reformation predecessors? Did the Anabaptists claim affinity with the Donatists?

The Hussites can rightly be called a predecessor of the reformation as could the Lollards because we can see the influence their leaders had down to the leaders of all sides of the Protestant reformation.

Also to call the Anabaptists, Anabaptists because they literally baptise again, doesn't seem all that wrong to me. It is a literal description of who they are, much like it is appropriate to call a Lutheran Luther because they follow the thought of Luther and belong to the Church he left behind.

You just want to argue don't you?

What did I say?

Do you realize that it was the "catholics" who actually gave birth, rather, started the path towards the Reformation in their actions towards the Donatists around AD 311?

The foundation was laid. The Reformation came 12 centuries later.

And it would not be improper to say that another building block for the Reformation came in AD 428 or 429 with:

Aurelius Augustin, Bishop of Hippo, A TREATISE ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS, The First Book, Addressed to Prosper and Hilary., AD. 428 OR 429

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
7,064
3,767
✟290,342.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
You just want to argue don't you?

What did I say?



The foundation was laid. The Reformation came 12 centuries later.

And it would not be improper to say that another building block for the Reformation came in AD 428 or 429 with:

Aurelius Augustin, Bishop of Hippo, A TREATISE ON THE PREDESTINATION OF THE SAINTS, The First Book, Addressed to Prosper and Hilary., AD. 428 OR 429

God Bless

Till all are one.

I don't think that's a fair accusation. Yes I like to argue but I am not doing so flippantly and I am trying to be as careful and thoughtful in my replies as possible. I don't see the Donatists being in any sense the start of the reformation, mainly because the Donatists held to a rigorist theology.

I have made my points and I don't see a response to them, particularly when it comes to making connections between the movements. A reaffirmation of your claim is not proof of it.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't think that's a fair accusation. Yes I like to argue but I am not doing so flippantly and I am trying to be as careful and thoughtful in my replies as possible. I don't see the Donatists being in any sense the start of the reformation, mainly because the Donatists held to a rigorist theology.

I have made my points and I don't see a response to them, particularly when it comes to making connections between the movements. A reaffirmation of your claim is not proof of it.

And you have offered nothing in return but your own opinion either.

And again, I never said they started it as shown in my previous quote.

They laid the foundation, so to speak, for it.

Why the very definition of "reformation" carried with it:

"Define reformation: the act or process of improving something or someone by removing or correcting faults, problems, etc."

Source

The Donatists saw a problem/fault, and tried to correct it, and ended up being martyred for it.

Now we can keep at this as long as you like. I see a long history of events that may be linked to the Reformation. All not quite as concrete as you wish, but they all contributed to it.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And since you are an EO, I have read that the seeds for the "Great Schism" of 1054 can be traced back to the insertion of the "filioque clause" into the Nicene Creed.

It's not "concrete", but there it is.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There is an old saying in among the Special Forces: "Kill 'em all, let God sort them out!"

I wonder if anybody can tell me where the saying came from?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I just want to go back to this for a second.

Your connection between the Donatists and the Anabaptists, as if they were a single harmonious community persisting till the reformation is tenuous at best.[/U][/B]

I ask you sir to show me in this thread where I said that the Donatists and the Anabaptists "were a single harmonious community persisting till the Reformation".

Calvin calling his opponents Neo-Donatist is not evidence of a historical connection but rather a theological/rhetorical opinion,

You know, its funny.

You go after me for citing Calvin calling the Anabaptists "neo-donatists" when a few centuries earlier, the same thing was said of a few other people.

And in fact, it was so bad during the Middle Ages that anybody who dared to disagree with the RCC came accusations of "Donatism", and were often leveled against church reform movements that criticized clerical immorality on theological grounds.

Prior to the Reformation, men like John Wycliffe and Jan Huss were both accused of Donatism by their theological opponents.

"Wycliffe taught that the moral corruption of priests invalidated their offices and sacraments, which was the same belief that had originally characterized Donatism."

-George Herring, (2006), Introduction To The History of Christianity, New York: New York University Press, p. 230 .

So while you deny it, I still stand by what I said earlier:

"Do you realize that it was the "catholics" who actually gave birth, rather, started the path towards the Reformation in their actions towards the Donatists around AD 311?"

I do see a link.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Like I said, I do not lump all into one category. I'm willing to take you on faith.

However, in the past, there was extreme hatred here of Fundamentalists by Catholics. So much so that the "Debate a Fundamentalist" and "Ask a Fundamentalist" areas were shut down.

I just will not tolerate anyone coming here and telling us how wrong our beliefs are.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Indeed. Just like the Catholic thread "Can ex-Catholics be saved."

Can ex-Catholics be saved - A detalied look ....
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Indeed. Just like the Catholic thread "Can ex-Catholics be saved."

Can ex-Catholics be saved - A detalied look ....

I took a look at that thread.

Note: Names have been deleted for the sake of argument and to protect the innocent.

This may help explain why there is hatred.

  1. Jesus did not start a vague, washy-washy, have it your way, Burger King type of church. He started a detailed, structured Church (similar to a corporation). He started a Church with set of religious rules and a code of moral ethics. The list of moral ethics comes from the 10 Commandments.
  2. Most Christians today think of Jesus as a loving, all merciful God who really doesn’t care what we do. He will just overlook all our sins and shortcomings. This is one of the basic philosophies of Protestantism. It is a philosophy that is greatly in error...To enter heaven we must be perfect and free from all stain of sin and imperfections, and it is the purpose of the Catholic Church to help us obtain that state of perfection.
And that, was only from the 3rd page in.

I have said it over and over many many times in the 12 years I have been here. Literally, there must be billions and billions of people who have been saved in the Roman Catholic Church. Where I do disagree is in their "dogmas".

The very first point is a slap in the face to Fundamentalists.

What is it Fundamentalists say they believe?

  1. Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally Inspired Bible;
  2. Believes whatever the Bible says is so;
  3. Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";

And this alone shows what a slap in the face it is.

"In both cases, the needs of the heart demand to be filled. Only the fullness of the Catholic faith can do that. Modernism, Catholic or non-Catholic, cannot do that; neither can fundamentalism."

So I can truthfully say as I have before, there is enough blame to go around.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I said above:

"In both cases, the needs of the heart demand to be filled. Only the fullness of the Catholic faith can do that. Modernism, Catholic or non-Catholic, cannot do that; neither can fundamentalism."

The author of that, also points out:

"Seven things fundamentalists believe about the Bible are that it is (1) supernatural, (2) inspired, (3) infallible, (4) sufficient, (5) authoritative, (6) literal, and (7) practical. Catholics believe these things too — but differently.
  1. Fundamentalists stress Scripture's divine, supernatural origin: It is the Word of God, not just the words of men. The primary author of all its books is the same God; that's why it's one book, not just many. Orthodox Catholics agree, of course.
  2. Fundamentalists believe the Bible was inspired ("in-breathed") by God, but they often think of this process the way a Moslem believes Allah dictated the Koran to Mohammed — word for word. Fundamentalists believe in "plenary (total) and verbal [word-for-word] inspiration."

  3. Catholics agree that Scripture is infallible, or free from error, but not necessarily grammatical, mathematical, or scientific error, only error in its message.

  4. Catholics agree with fundamentalists that Scripture is sufficient in that it contains everything necessary to know for salvation. If this were not so, Protestants couldn't be saved! Catholics also agree with fundamentalists that Scripture provides the foundation for all subsequent dogmas and creeds.
  5. As for the Bible's authority, orthodox Catholics agree with fundamentalists that it's authority is absolute and unimpeachable.
  6. Finally, the greatest strength of fundamentalism comes not from theory but from practice. Fundamentalist biblical principles are weak, but fundamentalist practice of Bible reading, studying, believing and devotion is very strong. And this is the primary point of the Bible, after all: See Matt. 7:2427.
Source

The next 85% of what follows is a treatise on how wrong Fundamentalism is.

Then the author closes with this:

"Fundamentalism must come to terms with the fullness of the Incarnation and the sacramentalization of matter and of Mary if they hope to understand Catholicism — and that's a very large step for them to take.

But many have taken it. Many Catholic converts came from fundamentalism. For fundamentalists often feel a sacramental vacuum in their religion. Recently, there have been many conversions from Catholicism to fundamentalism for the same reason: Many Catholics feel a spiritual vacuum because many Catholic priests and teachers are robbing the laity of clear, strong doctrine and morality in the name of the so-called "spirit of Vatican II."

In both cases, the needs of the heart demand to be filled. Only the fullness of the Catholic faith can do that. Modernism, Catholic or non-Catholic, cannot do that; neither can fundamentalism."

Ibid

There really is a lot we have in common, but by the same admission, there is a lot of where we disagree.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Now, there is one thing that would forbid me from ever joining myself to the Roman Catholic Church.

From an article regarding the Canon of the Council of Trent:

"(Note: The declarations and anathemas of the Council of Trent have never been revoked. The decrees of the Council of Trent are confirmed by both the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) and the official “Catechism of the Catholic Church” (1992).)"

Source

One thing that would forbid me is:

"Decree Concerning the Edition and the Use of the Sacred Books

Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,—in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, —wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,—whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,—hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established."

Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, The Fourth Session, Celebrated on the eighth day of the month of April, in the year 1546

Source

I have been through seminary classes. I have studied the history of Christianity, And Firsst Century Christianity. I have studied Greek I and II.

I can, given a little time, translate for myself, the Koine and Attic Greek.

This point alone, disqualifies me from ever being allowed to join myself to the RCC.

The author also said:

"Fundamentalists usually know very little about Church history. They don't know how many Catholic doctrines can be traced back to the early Fathers of the Church — e.g., that appeals to the Bishop of Rome to definitively settle disputes throughout the rest of the Church occur as early as turn of the first Century; or that the Mass, not Bible preaching, was the central act of worship in all the earliest descriptions of the Christian community. "

Ibid

The essence of that statement has already been used against me here in this thread.

As a Fundamentalists, or if you claim to be a Fundamentalist, you should read the entire discussion the author says about Fundamentalist/Fundamentalism.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
especially considering that most I've talked to have very little knowledge of what we actually believe...

Most of us know enough of what you believe to reject much of it as unbiblical, and the reason for strong feelings about this is our love of the gospel. The gospel is what we defend. We defend it from those who wish to add to is, and those who wish to subtract from it. It has enemies on both side. Some who are unwitting and ignorant, and some who are devious and scheming, but the center of debate between Protestants and RC & EO has everything to do with the gospel and its purity.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I do admit that by the 1300's, the Reformation was beginning. It is also true that John Wycliffe is considered by many, the front-runner of the Reformers.

But I also ran across another little diddy that seems to sum up in a nutshell what all the friction is about.

"All the beliefs that divide Catholics from fundamentalists are derived from the teaching authority of the Church.

Because Catholics believe in the Church, they believe a fuller, more complex and mysterious set of things than the narrowed down fundamentalist. Thus, the Church is the essential point of divergence."

Source

Here is a point of history.

Around 1380, the notion of putting the scriptures into the vernacular tongue was gaining strength.

In opposition to John Wycliffe, was William Butler.

"Friar Butler gave it as his 'principal' argument against translations, that God had appointed different orders in His Church, and that it was the function of the clergy to instruct the laity verbally in what was necessary to salvation, including as much of the scriptures as was needed for that end. Drawing his argument partly from the De Caelesti Hierarchia of the pseudo-Dionysius, and partly from St. Paul, he argued that illumination, on earth as in Heaven, must proceed from the higher to the lower orders:

'Thus, for the sake of argument, let us take Raphael, an angel of an inferior order, who ought to receive illumination as to any truth obscure to him from the archangel Gabriel, who belongs to a superior order. Now, in the hierarchy of the Church triumphant, the passive illumination of Raphael depends absolutely, in the order of created causation, upon that of Gabriel. But the order of the Church militant ought to conform to the disposition of the hierarchy of the Church triumphant: and therefore, the passive illumination of mortals (1) in an inferior order ought to depend absolutely on the will of mortals in the order above them. Thus it is obvious that the reading of scripture translated into the vulgar tongue is the act of the superior, and is not to be elicited or commanded by the will of a person of the inferior order. Therefore such an act, that is to say, reading of the scriptures, when found in a person of the lower order of the terrestrial hierarchy—even in one to some extent purified by the sacrament of penance—is almost an infernal act. ... Now I ask you, whether angels of a superior order permit or do not permit angels of an inferior order to have special books, in which, by spiritual reading or special privilege, they may know such things as inflame their affections, without any revelation of the superior order? If you say, that there are no such special books of this kind, but that they are only illuminated by the revelation of the prelates of their hierarchy ... then how ought any man to murmur because our enthroned pontiffs do not permit to the lowest orders the reading of holy scripture ... since this is held to be forbidden in the celestial hierarchy ? ... St. Jerome says (2) that the study of the scriptures needs a multitude of books, silence, sedulous librarians, safe and leisured scribes: how then, when the occupation of the people in tilling the fields, caring for the beasts, and performing their due services, is as great as, or greater than, the occupation of a soldier in fighting, how, I ask, can it but be, among such various cares, but that study of the scriptures should sleep?'

Moreover, Butler explains elsewhere, it is far safer for the laity to have the scriptures expounded to them by the clergy, than to read them themselves they will thus obtain the true meaning of the passages studied.

'St. Jerome says, that hearing is a better manner of obtaining knowledge of holy scripture than reading, for the way of hearing is better, safer, and quicker, than the way of reading, and should be followed because it is the more immediate way; therefore the way of reading ought to be forbidden, and the way of hearing frequently recommended. But perchance someone will object, that though to hear is better: yet nevertheless, it would be good for the common people to understand a little? To this, I say, that reading is more liable to lead to error than hearing.'

Thomas Palmer also made the teaching office of the clergy the chief reason for denying biblical translations to the laity.

'Nothing should be revealed to those who are not capable of understanding it: but these lay people are not capable of understanding many of the difficulties of holy scripture: therefore these matters at least should not be written in our vulgar tongue. ... Nothing should be had in the vulgar tongue which might be an occasion and cause of error to the simple: for the mass of the people are led into error very easily; but many parts of scripture, if translated into our vulgar tongue, would be wrongly understood and lead simple people into error; for if the difficulty of scripture led Arius, Sabellius, Nestorius, Frontinus and other heretics into error, therefore even more would it mislead simple people. ... For it is foolish to be scrupulous about what can without peril be ignored; and much of holy scripture may be ignored by the simple without peril, because it surpasses their understanding. ... Some things are too hard and difficult and lofty for simple people: even as Paul the apostle wrote: Even as babes in Christ, I have fed you with milk and not with meat. ... Those things needful for salvation, and no other part of holy scripture, should be translated for them.'

Closely connected with this argument, that it is not the function of the laity to read the Bible, is the broader one of the mysteriousness of scripture, and the insufficiency of the human mind to deal with it. Sometimes this is connected with the old argument as to the relative value of the four meanings of holy scripture, and whether a translation would convey other than the literal meaning. The discussion over the relative value of the four meanings arose much earlier than the controversy over biblical translations, and survived it: it was really a separate question, and was debated within the Franciscan order itself with great vigour. (3) But it is often difficult to distinguish between passages deploring the reading of the mysteries of scripture by simple people, and those claiming that the simple will gain only the literal meaning by reading a translation of the Bible. Butler says:

'My second argument against the aforesaid assertion, is on the grounds of the deficiency of the human intellect. ... For since people are slow of understanding and holy scripture is full of ambiguities, or doubtful matters (especially, as Dionysius says, in the passages of the sacred poets), how, I ask, should their reading be a means of obtaining knowledge of the meaning of holy scripture? That proposition then, that the common people should read holy scripture, ought to be given up: for it is not a means of leading them into knowledge of the aforesaid scripture. ... Since the best means of knowing God is to meditate on God, and humbly to entreat Him, and since Christian people profit more by these two means than by reading or hearing the scriptures ... it seems to me that it would be better to exhort people to make use of these two means: namely, meditation and prayer, than to advise that a translation of scripture into the vulgar tongue should be handed over to the laity'

Palmer also argues from these grounds in many passages:

'The secret things of God should be concealed from the simple, and not revealed to all men; ... those things which are more difficult to understand, and which are beyond the understanding of the simple, should not be demanded by them of the scriptures, lest they should lead them into error: Seek not out the things that are too high for thee. Not every truth is to be written in English, for many truths are useless: but every truth is contained in holy scripture, according to the Lollards, since it contains the first truth, which contains all other truths. Thus many things ought to be hidden and not shown to the people, lest they should grow vile when they are known and used.'

...the principal arguments against the translation of the Bible—not merely into English, but into any vernacular tongue. The main objection was, evidently, that translations of the Bible would lead to Bible-reading by the laity in general, which could be of no use to them unaccompanied by the exposition of the clergy, and might lead them into false interpretations and dangerous errors. The clergy were divinely appointed to teach, and an unlicensed lay reading of the Bible was certain, sooner or later, to lead to lay exposition of the Bible, which involved an attack on the clerical function and the idea of Christendom as an organic body. The canon law, Butler said, forbade laymen to dispute about the scriptures, and implicitly forbade the reading of them; 'our enthroned pontiffs' forbade this also, and
they had no right to do otherwise. There was here, according to him, no idea of demanding an innovation in custom: the ancient custom ought to be maintained:

1. Viantium, with the usual medieval meaning.

2. Pat. Lat. 22, col. 1086."

3. See the tracts on the subject printed in the Antwerp, 1634, edition of Biblia sacra cum Glossa Ordinaria et postilla Nic. Lira. Franc.

Source

Folks, although John Wycliffe died before the bible that bears his name, because the sacred writ was put into the language of the people, since we could read the scriptures for ourselves, those outside the "Catholic" church have gone deeply into error.

That is it in a nutshell.

We (those outside the RCC) infringe upon the " the Church's (1) nature, (2) mystery, (3) authority, (4) structure and (5) end."

Ibid

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Here: Why is there so much hate in fundamentalism toward Catholics and Orthodox

I outlined what happened in the 1300's-early 1400's.

I want to go back and show that indeed, the Donatists, in possession of scriptures themselves, were persecuted in the same fashion.

"Oxford theologian Henry Chadwick focuses on the persecution that occurred under Emperor Diocletian between 303 and 305, beginning with his purging the army of Christians in 302, later equating loyalty to Christ with high treason, and finally lapsing into “the irrational ferocity [of] liquidating anyone who failed to conform.” The violence during the Diocletian persecution can not be understated, and by many accounts his attempt was a total extermination of Christianity.

The North African church was a recipient of the Diocletian persecution, and it lost many believers. Martyrdom was commonplace, and some scholars believe that some “deliberately courted martyrdom, consciously provoking arrest and execution.”

The church was horrified by stories of their fellow believers being handed over, along with many of their holiest scriptures, to be destroyed, often not by their enemies, but by traitorous Christian leaders within their own church. The church in North Africa was then faced with the decision “between the Church of traditores (traitors) and persecutors, or the unsullied Church of the martyrs.” A vast majority of North African Christians began seeing themselves as “a church of martyrs.”

Source

I also submit:

"In the last decade of the 3rd century CE, Emperor Diocletian ordered persecutions of various groups he blamed for a wave of plagues and pestilences which had swept the western Empire and resulted in economic and social instability. The chief target-groups ended up being (initially) Manicheans, and then Christians.

Diocletian’s persecutions were not carried out evenly through the Empire. In some provinces, Roman rulers and forces didn’t have the power or resources to carry them out. In others, particularly the large eastern cities, there were so many Christians that the authorities could not carry them out, aside perhaps from a few “examples.”

Northern Africa, however, was home to the confluence of three factors: first, a strong Roman administrative and governing presence capable of carrying out Diocletian’s orders; second, a significant number of Manichaeans who were initially persecuted; and third, a significant nummber of Christians who became later targets. Such a combination of factors did not exist anywhere else in the Empire; hence, the controversy to come was unique to northern Africa.

During the persecutions, any Christian who renounced Christianity, made offerings to the Roman state gods and/or the Imperial divine cult, and who burned any sacred Christian texts they may have had, were spared. Those who refused — especially those caught with Christian texts that they refused to hand over or destroy — were usually killed. That texts were often used to determine who was Christian and who wasn’t, meant that the clergy — those Christians most likely to have such things — were particularly vulnerable to the persecution.

While some Christian clergy resisted and were martyred, many did not. They renounced Christianity, allowed their books to be burned, and were spared. This was, of course, also true of many lay Christians, although a smaller percentage of them were affected because most had no sacred texts to give them away."

Source

It's funny, John Wycliffe who wanted to put into the hands of the people the scriptures, was presecuted for it. Dying a natural death was enough, no! It was also ordered that he be dug up, burned, and his ashes scattered.

1000 years earlier, anybody who had their possession scriptures, were put to death if they did not surrender them.

But, we must continue.

What was the Donatist controversy really all about?

"The church was horrified by stories of their fellow believers being handed over, along with many of their holiest scriptures, to be destroyed, often not by their enemies, but by traitorous Christian leaders within their own church."

Ibid

They became known as "traditores, those who had actively betrayed it."

After the Diocletian persecution ended, many who betrayed the church and the people, were admitted back into the priesthood.

"After Diocletian, the persecutions died down, and Christianity began to poke its head above ground once again (to use a cliché). In the first decade of the 4th century, churches were restored, clergy performed services again, and so on. Christians were, however, still cautious, afraid of invoking another persecution. Clergy were particularly cautious, due to their own vulnerability. When Diocletian’s successor Constantine declared tolerance for Christianity in 313, all fear went away.

In the interim, between the end of Diocletian’s persecution, and the Edict of Milan which made it safe to be openly Christian, the Church in northern Africa had to settle for whichever clergy were willing to “return to the fold.” Some had never been caught by the Roman authorities, but others had renounced Christianity in order to stay alive. At first no one had much choice in the matter; too few clergy were willing to make themselves known again. But as it became ever safer to be Christian, the problem came to a head. Adding to it was the problem of Christians, particularly clergy, who wished to mollify the Imperial regime and thus try to accomodate it. Many who remembered the martyrs found it upsetting that fellow Christians would try to “make nice” with the enemy.

Many of these same north African Christians did not want to allow lapsed clergy (i.e. those who’d renounced their faith) to return. They considered it offensive to the memories of those who’d had the courage to become martyrs by not doing so. They might return to the Church as laymen — after an appropriate penance — but not as clergy ever again. Even prior to the Edict of Milan, this sentiment had been building; the open acceptance by Rome of Christianity merely caused the dam to break.

A cleric named Caecilian was elected Bishop of Carthage in 312, who was of the “pro-Roman” camp. This incensed many, and they refused to accept his appointment, on the legalistic grounds that he hadn’t been properly ordained in the first place, some years prior. These “purists” elected, instead, their own bishop, Majorinus, one who denounced the “Roman collaborators” and refused to restore lapsed clergy. When he died in 315, the purists elected Donatus, also called Donatus Magnus. Due to his long tenure as the purist Bishop of Carthage (from 315 to 355 despite an exile in 347), Donatus ended up being the primary spokesman for the movement, and it bears his name.

Donatus and his faction declared the lapsed clergy ineligible to perform the sacraments, and that any which they may have performed, were invalid. The opposing party declared, again, that lapsed clergy could be restored to full authority — including the perfomance of sacraments — after having performed appropriate penance. They based this idea on the concept of forgiveness for all.

Source

This is the reason why Donatists were also known now as the fore-runners to the Anabaptists. Anybody who had been baptized by the clergy who during the persecutions and had "made offerings to the Roman state gods and/or the Imperial divine cult, and who burned any sacred Christian texts they may have had" were thus deemed traditores. And anybody who was baptized by these "traditores" the Donatists wanted to "re-baptize" them.

Which is why the Donatists are also known for one of their beliefs:

"The sacraments. Maintaining the purity and thus the authenticity of the sacraments was of fundamental importance within Donatism. The true church was the church whose sacraments were pure and untainted. Unlike the Catholics, who taught that sacraments remained valid and effective despite unworthiness on the part of the officiating church leader, Donatists regarded the worthiness of the church leader as critical. Thus, any who had been baptised by those who belonged to churches tainted by fellowship with traditors, had to be re-baptised when they joined the Donatist churches. Similarly, consecrations in such circumstances were null and void. They rejected the Catholic argument that the sacraments were gifts of Christ and were valid despite shortcomings in ministers."

Source

One writer is absolutely correct:

"The Donatist controversy was never actually resolved. It remained a divisive point right up until the Muslim conquest of northern Africa in the 7th century, when Christianity in the region was wiped out."

Ibid

I'm not saying what the Donatists did was right, I'm not saying what the Catholic church did was wrong. I'm not saying the Donatists were wrong and the Catholic church was right.

What I am saying is there is a "link" between Donatists and Anabaptists. Although the Anabaptists came along some 7-800 years later, the link is seen in "re-baptizing". Although the reasons are different, the fact remains that both, the Donatists to a lesser degree, the Anabaptists to a larger degree, both practiced "re-baptism".

Dismiss it if you like, say it isn't there if you like. Deny it if want.

But there it is n black and white.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0