Why is there so much hate in fundamentalism toward Catholics and Orthodox

[bbbbbbb]

QUOTE="bbbbbbb

One of the most condescending statements that I frequently read here at CF is when people such as yourself try to accuse former Catholics as not actually have been really and truly Catholics. There seem to be far more former Catholics here than former Protestants who have become Catholics, yet I have never observed former Protestants of never really having been Protestants.

What did you not understand about what I wrote?? I told you that almost all X-Catholics whom I have talked with or seen posting in forums such as this have continually made statements that show that they were not catechized properly, either by their parish or their parents, and they didn't understand the depths of the faith at all. I am giving you FACTS, sir, not condescension. I have seen statement that are so far from truth and so ignorant that I go away scratching my head wondering from where they learned such a thing because it was not in the Catholic Church.

The fact of the matter for most former Catholics who convert to Protestantism, their decision is not made quickly or easily. Most face extreme pressure from family members and friends to remain in "the faith", not to mention the public relations campaign of the Catholic Church to "come home".

The same is true of Protestants, especially the more Fundamentalist ones, who convert to Catholicism. Things like those lying and nasty Jack Chick tracts, ignorant pulpit-pounders who threaten people with hell-fire if they leave Fundamentalism, (if you want to know what I am talking about, drive through West Virginia on a Sunday morning with your AM radio on scan), and a complete blackout in Evangelicalism of any Church history at all (Christian history in Evangelicalism is "Jesus rose from the dead - Martin Luther restores Christianity), make it nerve-wracking to consider conversion to the Catholic faith. Add to that family members who threaten the person with "God will strike you down" or "You will go to hell if you become Catholic." and you have a real recipe for a hard journey to the ancient faith.

So, in the future, please do not presume that former Catholics were somehow ignorant and/or easily influenced. Each individual is different and I would no sooner condescend and belittle you by insisting that if you really had understood Protestantism, you would never have wandered so far from the faith.

Say what you will, the PROOF I have seen in 20 years of being a Catholic convert and dealing with forums like this is that most Catholics today are gravely ignorant of what the Catholic faith is and teaches, and this has been so for around 200 years.

I don't know what brand of Evangelical came to your front door and convinced you that his church is teaching the truth, but whatever it is, it started sometime after the Protestant Reformation, which is to say, 1500 years after Apostles went out with the truth that Christ had taught them and evangelized the world. The Christian faith exists today because these men went out and baptized babies and adults, taught that the Eucharist is Christ, preached Christ resurrected and conquering death, defended His nature and deity against heresy, and took the numerous books existent which claimed divine inspiration and from them developed the Bible you use today. You read and believe a Catholic book which was compiled by Catholic bishops and trust it for your salvation, yet you will not trust the Church which Christ established upon St. Peter, but rather some organization which came along 1500+ years later and claimed to have "found the truth."

And the funny part about that is that there are thousands of other Evangelical bodies who also claim to have the truth, yet do not agree with your assembly or each other. Bob Jones Fundamentalists reject Lutheranism. Baptists reject Episcopalians. SDA's think we are all wrong. It's a matter of interpretation, which leads to this question: did the Apostles "get it right" or not? If they did, and they transmitted faithfully that which they which they were taught, then what they taught is correct and is the truth. If not, then you have a Wild West theology where anything goes and where do you find the truth? Who is right? Which of the hundreds of denominations out there has the truth? Have you really considered this? Every non-Orthodox, non-Catholic denomination claims they have the truth and are being led by the Holy Spirit. I watch this all the time right here in the debates/arguments by two non-Catholic people going at it. There is no single source of truth other than what people think the Bible says.

Ironically, no "brand of Fundamentalist" ever showed up at my front door. In fact, the only religious folks who have shown up at my front door have been Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

My journey actually began when I started to read the Bible on my own. The more I read the more I realized the vast gulf between Church Tradition and what the Bible contained. I chose to believe the Bible rather than the various contradictory doctrines of Church Tradition. Mine was a very heavily informed decision which, over the past forty-some years I have never regretted.

I will not impugn you by asking you which "brand of Traditional Christian" showed up at your front door because I know, of course, that your Church does not do any form of direct evangelization or outreach. I will allow that you also made a heavily-informed decision and are obviously quite secure in it, nor do I expect you to have the slightest regret about it.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="bbbbbbb, Ironically, no "brand of Fundamentalist" ever showed up at my front door. In fact, the only religious folks who have shown up at my front door have been Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Well, I made that statement because I used to be one of those people, when I was a Bob Jones Fundamentalist, who would go out on Thursday night "visitation" to witness from door to door. Seems that in certain areas of the country, that is done a lot.

My journey actually began when I started to read the Bible on my own. The more I read the more I realized the vast gulf between Church Tradition and what the Bible contained. I chose to believe the Bible rather than the various contradictory doctrines of Church Tradition. Mine was a very heavily informed decision which, over the past forty-some years I have never regretted.

Okay. So let me refer you back to what I said. You read the Bible and as you did, your mind said certain things to you. We all have a tendency to read things and interpret them in a certain fashion. So how do you know that what you have discerned is correct, rather than some other form of Evangelicalism which would be in opposition to what you have determined? I think this is a very fair question. Also, how do you know that you have not made an error? How do you feel that it is you personally who is being led by the Holy Spirit and all others in Evangelical circles are wrong? (When I say "Evangelical" I mean all non-Catholic and Protestant faiths). What guarantee do you have that you are correct?

I will not impugn you by asking you which "brand of Traditional Christian" showed up at your front door because I know, of course, that your Church does not do any form of direct evangelization or outreach. I will allow that you also made a heavily-informed decision and are obviously quite secure in it, nor do I expect you to have the slightest regret about it.

I don't consider it being impugned to ask that. The fact of my conversion started when I stumbled into an Internet forum run by Roman Catholics and began to debate with them. Over the time, I began to do something I had not done before, which was to read the historic writings of the Church, especially the Early Fathers of the Church. I came to realize that my PCA Presbyterianist Calvinism could nowhere be found in the writings of those who were very close to the Apostles. That caused me a great deal of consternation.

Further reflection on my part made me realize that A.) I did wish to worship in the form which was most close to the Apostles. That left only Holy Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. B.) I personally had no guarantee that my ideas for worship were either correct or guided by the Holy Spirit, therefore C.) I had to trust in someone other than myself to find the truth. D.) the Church, and not any individual, is called "the pillar and ground of truth E.) Thus it was safer to put myself in the arms and understanding of the Church than of my own musings.

I guess you could say that I was "heavily informed" when I converted. I certainly spent a great deal of time studying documents and debating online before I entered the Church on April 14th of 2001. I would not have converted had I not had historic foundation in the writings of the Early Church and come to a more thorough understanding of the Bible than the narrow and ahistoric view my Presbyterian and Fundamentalist pastors gave me.

Ironically, my PCA pastor was an X-Catholic and was shocked to see my conversion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

QUOTE="bbbbbbb, Ironically, no "brand of Fundamentalist" ever showed up at my front door. In fact, the only religious folks who have shown up at my front door have been Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Well, I made that statement because I used to be one of those people, when I was a Bob Jones Fundamentalist, who would go out on Thursday night "visitation" to witness from door to door. Seems that in certain areas of the country, that is done a lot.

My journey actually began when I started to read the Bible on my own. The more I read the more I realized the vast gulf between Church Tradition and what the Bible contained. I chose to believe the Bible rather than the various contradictory doctrines of Church Tradition. Mine was a very heavily informed decision which, over the past forty-some years I have never regretted.

Okay. So let me refer you back to what I said. You read the Bible and as you did, your mind said certain things to you. We all have a tendency to read things and interpret them in a certain fashion. So how do you know that what you have discerned is correct, rather than some other form of Evangelicalism which would be in opposition to what you have determined? I think this is a very fair question. Also, how do you know that you have not made an error? How do you feel that it is you personally who is being led by the Holy Spirit and all others in Evangelical circles are wrong? (When I say "Evangelical" I mean all non-Catholic and Protestant faiths). What guarantee do you have that you are correct?

I will not impugn you by asking you which "brand of Traditional Christian" showed up at your front door because I know, of course, that your Church does not do any form of direct evangelization or outreach. I will allow that you also made a heavily-informed decision and are obviously quite secure in it, nor do I expect you to have the slightest regret about it.

I don't consider it being impugned to ask that. The fact of my conversion started when I stumbled into an Internet forum run by Roman Catholics and began to debate with them. Over the time, I began to do something I had not done before, which was to read the historic writings of the Church, especially the Early Fathers of the Church. I came to realize that my PCA Presbyterianist Calvinism could nowhere be found in the writings of those who were very close to the Apostles. That caused me a great deal of consternation.

Further reflection on my part made me realize that A.) I did wish to worship in the form which was most close to the Apostles. That left only Holy Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. B.) I personally had no guarantee that my ideas for worship were either correct or guided by the Holy Spirit, therefore C.) I had to trust in someone other than myself to find the truth. D.) the Church, and not any individual, is called "the pillar and ground of truth E.) Thus it was safer to put myself in the arms and understanding of the Church than of my own musings.

I guess you could say that I was "heavily informed" when I converted. I certainly spent a great deal of time studying documents and debating online before I entered the Church on April 14th of 2001. I would not have converted had I not had historic foundation in the writings of the Early Church and come to a more thorough understanding of the Bible than the narrow and ahistoric view my Presbyterian and Fundamentalist pastors gave me.

Ironically, my PCA pastor was an X-Catholic and was shocked to see my conversion.

To be quite frank, I am perplexed as to why you are pursuing a discussion which you yourself said, several posts back, had reached its end. I do not have the slightest interest in "converting" you. You seem to be completely convinced of the choice you made in joining the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and I certainly recognize that church and its members as believers in the one, true, triune God.

As for your concern regarding my apparent ignorance of church history and its relationship to present day denominationalism, please be assured that I am not nearly as ignorant as you might think.

 

[Light of the East]

To be quite frank, I am perplexed as to why you are pursuing a discussion which you yourself said, several posts back, had reached its end. I do not have the slightest interest in "converting" you. You seem to be completely convinced of the choice you made in joining the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and I certainly recognize that church and its members as believers in the one, true, triune God.

As for your concern regarding my apparent ignorance of church history and its relationship to present day denominationalism, please be assured that I am not nearly as ignorant as you might think.

Okay.

Been good.

God bless.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Okay.

Been good.

God bless.

May God bless you, as well.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Q: Why is there so much hate in fundamentalism toward Catholics and Orthodox ??

A: False Premise! There ain't!!

 

[Newtheran]

There is a huge difference between exposing false doctrine and hating those who have been deluded by it. Jesus said "As many as I love, I REBUKE and chasten".

In a nutshell salvation is either by grace through faith plus nothing, or Christianity is a religion of good works and observing the Sacraments. Take your pick, but pick up the Bible first.

What is the Eastern Orthodox Church and what are the beliefs of Orthodox Christians?

Or, Christianity is a religion of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, evidenced by works alone. And removing any one of those legs results in a false assurance. This is really the only understanding of the matter that harmonizes all of scriptures, the verses from Romans and the verses from James.

 

[Newtheran]

First of all, Theotokos does not mean "Mother of God." It means "God-bearer." I would think that unless you are a Oneness Pentecostal, that title wouldn't have that much baggage for you

As for Paul stating that Mary was "a woman," that is an important distinction which he is making, since our salvation depends upon Christ Jesus being both God and Man in one Person. I'm not sure what your objection is here.

The title "Mother of God" in the Latin Church does not show up for several centuries, and it does so in order to combat the Arian heresy which denied the Trinity and made out Christ to be a mere created being. That was the intent, not something nefarious. However, it appears that you are at least a closet Arian in that you deny that Mary was the mother of the Man who was also God, thus making Her the Mother of God in that sense (I happen to prefer Theotokos, but that is because of my Eastern roots).

Can't deny anything you've said here, but I think a lot of the baggage the title "Mother of God" carries in the English language results from our tendency to think of the Trinity in terms of God-Jesus-the Holy Spirit and so automatically equating the term God with God the Father. There's no intent to deny the divinity of Jesus or the Holy Spirit in that reference, just the way it's come to be referred to. Theotokos as "God Bearer" doesn't raise objections as it simply refers to the historicity of the virgin birth and Jesus divine nature, but the minute you move to Mother of God it results in all sorts of reactions for the above mentioned reason. Even I'm not immune from that reaction. A lot of the Roman Catholic Marian references (co-redemptrix, divine mistress, queen of heaven) are much more theologically problematic. A curious aside of history, it's said that it was Pope Benedict's influence upon John Paul that actually prevented him from declaring Mary as co-redemptrix ex-cathedra...which would have caused quite a dust up.

 

[Light of the East]

Q: Why is there so much hate in fundamentalism toward Catholics and Orthodox ??

A: False Premise! There ain't!!

You haven't been a Fundamentalist. I have. You would be wrong, sir.

 

[Light of the East]

Or, Christianity is a religion of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, evidenced by works alone. And removing any one of those legs results in a false assurance. This is really the only understanding of the matter that harmonizes all of scriptures, the verses from Romans and the verses from James.

Just wondering if you have studied any of the Catholic or Orthodox apologia which dismantles the three "solas" and shows they are not true?

 

[Tayla]

Why is there so much hate in fundamentalism toward Catholics and Orthodox

It's an enduring habit from the days in which everybody was burning at the stake fellow Christians. Everyone wanted their view to be the only view. This thinking of Christendom is still alive today.

 

[SgtBen]

There IS no hate between Fundies and Catholics.

This is total insanity. I'm a Baptist, my wife is a Fundie, and we have terrific Catholic friends including a Priest! They were honored guests at our wedding.

The idea of any hatred toward any religion is absolute garbage and anyone who hates anyone for their religion needs to seriously get to Jesus and fix it.

Jesus tolerates NO hate.

 

[DeaconDean]

There IS no hate between Fundies and Catholics.

This is total insanity. I'm a Baptist, my wife is a Fundie, and we have terrific Catholic friends including a Priest! They were honored guests at our wedding.

The idea of any hatred toward any religion is absolute garbage and anyone who hates anyone for their religion needs to seriously get to Jesus and fix it.

Jesus tolerates NO hate.

You missed the years this particular area had: "Debate a Fundamentalist".

99% of everything in that area, directed at Fundamentalists, was from Catholicism.

It was so bad, that that area was closed!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Albion]

There IS no hate between Fundies and Catholics.

This is total insanity. I'm a Baptist, my wife is a Fundie, and we have terrific Catholic friends including a Priest! They were honored guests at our wedding.

The idea of any hatred toward any religion is absolute garbage and anyone who hates anyone for their religion needs to seriously get to Jesus and fix it.

Jesus tolerates NO hate.

While there may be some hate (because we cannot speak for the attitudes of every last member of any church) going in either direction, I think your point is correct.

Unfortunately, some people take any expression of disagreement over religious doctrine or practice to be tantamount to hatred. It isn't.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

especially considering that most I've talked to have very little knowledge of what we actually believe...

I think it is because it makes some people feel spiritually ill in cases like praying to the saint and making idols of the saints and praying to those who are dead as just an example. That is my honest opinion.

 

[SgtBen]

I am a Baptist. My dearest wife is a Fundamentalist. Some of our dearest friends are Catholics.

At our wedding, although the Baptist pastor and the Fundie pastor presided over us, our dear friend, the Catholic priest, did lay his hands upon our rings and he was the one who said the blessings over our rings. He and the couple of nuns there are so precious to us, great friends who stood with us at our beautiful wedding.

Please explain why anyone could ever hate this.

Bring it on, and bring it with an explanation why this didn't happen, or why it happened with an ulterior motive.

I am waiting to hear all the excuses.

 

[SgtBen]

The fact is, only the hate which is conjured up in sad minds and people who are consumed with anger and hate can only hate.

Remember when you are consumed with hatred, only that comes from you. Anyone who hates needs to change their ways, come to Jesus for forgiveness, and turn their lives around.

 

[DeaconDean]

I am a Baptist. My dearest wife is a Fundamentalist. Some of our dearest friends are Catholics.

At our wedding, although the Baptist pastor and the Fundie pastor presided over us, our dear friend, the Catholic priest, did lay his hands upon our rings and he was the one who said the blessings over our rings. He and the couple of nuns there are so precious to us, great friends who stood with us at our beautiful wedding.

Please explain why anyone could ever hate this.

Bring it on, and bring it with an explanation why this didn't happen, or why it happened with an ulterior motive.

I am waiting to hear all the excuses.

I am glad your wedding went so well.

And, I am glad you have such good Catholic friends.

But while in seminary, I was asked to attend three separate churches, outside Baptists as part of my class.

I went to:

1. Mormon
2. Lutheran
3. Catholic

Mormons use the KJV as "bait" to lure ppl in. Then switch versions for "bible study". Didn't agree with their beliefs, so away I went.

Lutherans reminded me of the experience I had when I was younger and attended church with an ex-girlfriend. I just could not adjust to Lutheran services.

I went to St. Mathews Catholic church in my hometown.

Here is where I learned I could never convert to Catholicism.

There were so many practices, which to them, is correct. (God Bless them)

But to me, a Baptist, I just could not, and will not accept.

I've been a Baptist/Fundamentalist for going on 44 years now, and I still say I cannot abide by certain practices.

AS long as "religion" never comes up as a topic, I think you and your friends will get along great. And I hope it never does.

But there are certain practices in Catholicism that Fundamentalists would NEVER accept.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Janice Orbi]

Listen friend, speaking as a friend and brother in Christ, most, not all mind you, but most of the Orthodox and OBOB members who have visited this area, come here on mission.

Back when I was on staff and this area had a "Debate a Fundamentalist" and "Ask a Fundamentalist" areas, you should have seen the attacks on our beliefs.

To be honest, I've seen it go both ways.

Nobody has "clean hands".

And to be honest also, I have a few Catholic and Orthodox friends here. When they come here, they are respectful, and I treat them as they treat me. There is one who has been especially thoughtful and for that, I thank God and him.

He knows who he is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Why is it that Catholics mary to the Virgin Mary and to Saints? Why do they worship Mary?

 

[Janice Orbi]

Sorry I meant Pray to the Virgin Mary