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Featured WHY IS THERE SO MANY WARNINGS FROM GOD'S WORD ABOUT LOSING SALVATION IF IT IS NOT POSSIBLE??

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    But it wasn't false teachers who taught me my convictions. It was the Bible that I'd read from the age of 5. It wasn't my parents either. However, the very high standards expected of me at home and the way that I didn't feel forgiveness by my family for any of my mistakes made it harder to expect a Holy God to forgive me. Especially when Jesus said 'sin no more' and 'He that loves me obeys me' etc.

    I feel that OSAS is a heresy fooling many Christians who've relied on others to teach them the meaning of the scriptures. I can not accept eternal security doctrine because of the Bible rather than any preaching.

    After reading and listening to 2 Peter last night, I feel sorry for those who believe that they can continue in sin and not face the consequences that the Bible warns against. 2 Peter was written to the elect and clearly demonstrates that the elect can fall.
     
  2. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter ?:?

    I need to have some idea as to what you with your understanding are pointing at.
     
  3. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but you cannot interject your words into what is written in the Bible, UNREPENTANT is not used in either Testaments.
    Therefore your hypothesis is skewed, a Believer cannot have Unrepentant sin.

    Sinners on the other hand DO, that is what Jesus came for, that is what Jesus died for, that is what Jesus forgives, they Believe and repent, isn't that the scenario which unfolded in you life?

    Only Unbelievers have Unrepentant sin.
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Sister, sinning knowingly in HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to UNREPENTANT SIN. It is not talking about REPENTANT SIN...

    All through the bible we have examples of two classes of people who...
    1. knowingly sinned and repented and returned to God and
    2. those who knowingly sinned against God without repentance.

    Let's have a look (not exhaustive)

    1 Those who knowingly sinned and repented, confessed returned to God and were accepted by God

    *Moses - NUMBERS 20:1-13
    *King David’s repentance after his sin with Bathsheba – PSALMS 32 and 51;
    *King David in numbering the people - 2 SAMUEL 24:10; 1 CHRONICLES 21:8;
    *The prodigal son’s repentance – LUKE 15;
    *Balaam - NUMBERS 22:31-35;
    *King Ahab - 1 KINGS 21:27-28;
    *The tax collector - LUKE 8:13;
    *The people in the wilderness - NUMBERS 21:7;
    *All of NINEVAH - JONAH 3:6-8
    *Israel - JOEL 1:13 to JOEL 2:12 etc etc
    *PETER - MARK 14:72; JOHN 21:15-17

    This list is not comprehensive but are examples of those who sinned and repented and turned to God and God forgave them of their sins. See also PROVERBS 28:9-13; 1 JOHN 1:9; 1 JOHN 2:1-4.

    2. Those who sinned and had no repentance (Unrepentant sin) and lost their salvation

    *King Saul did evil and God's spirit departed - 1 CHRONICLES 10:13-14
    *King Rehoboam's did evil - 2 CHRONICLES 12:14
    *King Abijam did evil - 1 KINGS 15:1-3
    *King Jehoram did evil - 2 KINGS 8:16-18
    *King Ahaziah did evil - 2 KINGS 8:25-27
    *Queen Athaliah did evil - 2 CHRONICLES 24:7
    *King Ahaz did evil - 2 KINGS 16:2
    *King Manasseh did evil - 2 KINGS 21:1
    *King Amon did evil - 2 KINGS 21:19-20
    *King Jehoahaz did evil - 2 KINGS 23:31-32
    *King Jehoiakim did evil - 2 CHRONICLES 36:5, 8
    *King Jehoiachin did evil - 2 KINGS 24:8-9
    *King Zedekiah did evil - 2 KINGS 24:18-19
    *King Jeroboam did evil - 1 KINGS 14:8-9; 1 KINGS 14:16; 2 KINGS 17:21
    *King Nadab did evil - 1 KINGS 15:25
    *King Baasha did evil - 1 KINGS 15:33-34
    *King Elah did evil - 1 KINGS 16:13
    *King Zimri did evil - 1 KINGS 16:18-19
    *King Omri did evil - 1 KINGS 16:25-26
    *King Ahab did evil - 1 KINGS 16:30
    *King Ahaziah did evil - 1 KINGS 22:51-52
    *King Jehoram did evil - 2 KINGS 3:1-3
    *King Jehoahaz did evil - 2 KINGS 13:1-2
    *King Joash did evil - 2 KINGS 13:10-11
    *King Jeroboam (2) did evil - 2 KINGS 14:23-24
    *King Zachariah did evil - 2 KINGS 15:8-9
    *King Menahem did evil - 2 KINGS 15:17-18
    *King Pekahiah did evil - 2 KINGS 15:23-24
    *King Pekah did evil - 2 KINGS 15:27-28
    *King Hoshea did evil - 2 KINGS 17:1-2
    *Hymenaeus and Alexander - 1 TIMOTHY 1:18-20
    *Those who fell away from believing and following God's Word - HEBREWS 6:4-8
    *Those who return back to a life of sin without repentance - HEBREWS 10:26-31

    Now as shown above all those kings did Evil in the sight of the Lord; Their legacy was that they did evil; there was no record of repentance; Evil according to Gods Word is breaking God's commandment *MATTHEW 15:19-20. The reason that the world was destroyed by a flood was because the imaginations of their heart was only evil continually *GENESIS 6:5-7 and the wages of sin is death.

    What will be the fate of all those who do EVIL? The wages of sin (EVIL) is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 8:13; ROMANS 6:23.

    WITH REPENTANCE...

    1 JOHN 1:9 []9, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    1 JOHN 2:1 [1], My little children, these things write I to you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    [2], And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    WITHOUT REPENTANCE...

    1 CHRONICLES 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: FOR THE LORD SEARCHES THE HEARTS, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: IF YOU SEEK HIM, HE WILL BE FOUND OF YOU; BUT IF YOU FORSAKE HIM, HE WILL CAST YOU OFF FOREVER.

    ISAIAH 59:1-3 1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR. 3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

    Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter, Paul and John that SIN separates us from GOD

    EZEKIEL 3:17-21 17, Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18, When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand. 19, Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. 20, AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    HEBREWS 10:26-31; 38
    [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
    [27], BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
    [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    [29], OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
    [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    [31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

    HEBREWS 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back; my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    Hope this is helpful,

    God bless.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  5. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Are you able to identify just who the ELECT actually are, can you document how someone is able to call themselves one of the Elect, (such as yourself) that belief in itself, is something which the Church Teaches.
     
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I do not need to. HEBREWS 6:4-8 is talks for itself about BELIEVERS who fall away from the faith back into a life of unrepentant sin. Denying this is to simply deny God's Word.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  7. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Isn't it amazing how in two more Chapters after he said this, he said something that on the face of it would completely contradict what 1 John 1-9 says.

    But wait it isn't a contradiction, it's a continuation of what John was saying.

    1 John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
     
  8. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    It is not sin they refuse to repent of, it is sin that God will not allow anyone to Repent of, there is a big difference.

    And as I have already shown, the first verse say's
    For it is impossible,.....Means it cant Happen.
    If they shall fall away,.......Means, not Possible.

    Understand what it is actually saying, look at it study it, chew it up and swallow it, it does not in any way say what you are saying it says.
     
  9. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Well that is not true. HEBREWS 6:4-8 is talking about believers who have fallen away from the faith back into a life of UNREPENTANT sin to become unbelievers. It is God's Word not mine. You are free to believe as you wish however. Of course it is impossible to repent of unrepentant sin because it is UNREPENTANT. How can God allow anyone to live in unrepentant sin and be saved? It is impossible. Your post makes no sense. Please address post # 195 linked if you disagree. If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures that have been provided and only sent in love and as a help to you? Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) Those who are not His Sheep do not hear His Voice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  10. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
    And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.
    Romans 4:3-8

    There's the scripture. I didn’t post it because I thought you’d be familiar enough with scripture to know what I was referring to.

    Do you also need the references where Jesus says that He will not lose those whom the Father has given Him?
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    There you go. You believe that following God’s word makes you righteous. You believe that not following God’s word makes You unrighteousness.

    And let’s not forget that this thread is about losing salvation. You teach that your actions keep you saved. And that the wrong actions will cause you to fall away. It’s why you are keen to repeat Hebrews 6. You believe that is what is taught. So yes, you believe that your actions keep you righteous. If it was strictly grace, then you wouldn’t believe salvation could be lost.
     
  12. Sam91

    Sam91 Child of the Living God Supporter

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    Well, there are only 3 chapters. You can find it in chapter 1, kind of 2 and definitely 3. Rather than isolate any verses it is better to read it as a whole, then maybe discuss it. It shouldn't take more than 8 minutes to read it and reread sections.

    I'm not home atm so can't really point to particular verses but the beginning 2 paragraphs and the last 2 are particularly illuminating.
     
  13. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    You did not read what you were quoting from did you or does your post respond to what you have quoted from. Sadly your post has no truth in it and only continues to make things up things that no one believes or has said. It only shows dishonestly in a discussion. It also shows that you have no response to the scripture provided to you that disagree with you.

    The doctrine of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" is a very old one that only has it's origins from the garden of Edens first lie from the father of lies spoken to Eve in eden which was you can break God's Commandments and not surely die.

    You are free to believe as you wish. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. Sadly though at this time it will be too late for the many that had the chance to hear God's Word and chose to turn away from it to follow man made teachings that cry smooth things of peace and safety for those having itching ears.

    God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word). Those who do not are not his Sheep.
     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the scriptures I love them and believe them. How do these scripture relate to the post and the scriptures you are quoting from? It only supports it. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word).
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I don’t believe in OSAS, so there’s that. And you haven’t come out and refuted what I said. You believe that there’s a direct correlation to your actions and staying saved. All one has to do is read your posts.

    Scripture teaches that not only is salvation of the Lord, staying saved is His responsibility as well. He who started a good work will complete it. He does not hold our sins against us. The Son loses none that the Father gives Him. Where sin abounds, grace abounds even more.

    Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
    — Jude 24-25
     
  16. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It applies because you don’t believe it. You don’t think that our sins won’t be held against us. Yours is the false gospel that Paul warmed about in Galatians.

    This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
    Galatians 3:2-3

    Your theology has no place for Paul.
     
  17. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    That's a good topic idea. Just be sure to title it accurately as: "Salvation by works, Christ's sacrifice was ineffective."
     
  18. lismore

    lismore Legend

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    Hello LoveGodsWord. With respect, you seem to be welding together distinct concepts as though they were synonimous. God Bless :)
     
  19. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Active Member Supporter

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    Side note:

    I tried the "look at Hebrews 6:9 for a change" approach and got nowhere. Like a bop bag the conditioned response bounced right back. Instead of beloved indicating a bond of tenderness underlying the letter, it meant "see, they’re believers, so it’s proof believers can be lost!" A distorted, negative bent alien to the writer of the letter.

    In light of the lovely, positive and airtight case the writer of Hebrews makes for The Lord Jesus Christ, the warnings sprinkled intermittently cannot be drawn out and magnified without distortion. They are almost Theater of the Absurd in contrast to the sure hope held out. The writer doesn’t believe they will turn from the Lord in the face of such evidence. If he did, why bother with a continued "Abbondanza!" of further proofs of God’s goodness? Verses 13-20 are utterly mind blowing in their implication. Such lofty truth is not shared with "swine". The writer, inspired by God, knows just what the Doctor ordered for these Jewish believers.

    The writer no doubt brings out the rod of correction but it is employed in the service of those who are beloved (God disciplines those he lives and chastises everyone he accepts as a son).

    *Abbondanza!: "the Italian concept of 'too muchness' that makes a meal seem epic" (definition I read once). It’s also what "Mama Celeste" used to say at the end of her commercials, like "Eat! Eat! Enjoy!'" Or the Woman Wisdom saying, "Come, eat my food and drink the wine I have mixed". :blush:
     
  20. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    When you are able to comprehend just who those people actually are which constitute The Elect, then the conversation can really begin.

    This discussion is just a preliminary to the real thing.
     
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