Why is the PCUSA going so liberal?

hedrick

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Huh? The original war over fundamentalism in the early 20th Cent was fought in the Presbyterian Church. Since that time, the main body of the Presbyterian Church (the name has changed a couple of times since then) has accepted critical scholarship. I'm not *that* old but I've been involved since the 60's. I don't find that our approach to Scripture has changed since then. The question isn't whether the Bible is "true" but what kind of document it is.
 
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hedrick

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The following summary appears in an official document written in the early 1980's:

As in the 1920s, the denomination is now discussing biblical authority, since adherents of the inerrantist* view of the authority of the Bible have become increasingly vocal. The inerrantist view was the predominant view in the church from the l700s until 1927. At that time the denomination debated the extent to which the General Assembly had constitutional power to issue binding defInitions of "essential and necessary doctrines" for ordination. In 1927, the General Assembly repudiated earlier declarations that named five fundamental doctrines as essential and necessary for subscription for ordination (the Deliverance of 1910, again adopted in 1920 and 1923). In its action, the General Assembly permitted theological diversity within the limits of the confessions. Thus, the view of biblical authority and interpretation that was held from the mid-1700s gradually made room for new theological perspectives, fIrst as moderate liberalism in the 1930s, then as strong neoorthodoxy in the 1940s and 1950s. From the 1960s to the present, new currents, such as process,* liberation,* and other theologies, have provided additional perspectives.

There were at the time that was written, and still are today, a variety of approaches within the denomination. But a strict position of inerrancy was held only by 14% in 1979. I would guess that it's similar today.

My own position is that Scripture is a human document that gives an account of how God dealt with his people. It functions as the Word of God when understood (and particularly, when preached) with the aid of the Holy Spirit. The fact that the Bible contains a variety of perspectives on God is obvious from any straightforward reading. I believe my view has been typical of the leadership for several decades, and quite likely was typical at least back to the 1940s and 50s.
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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Huh? The original war over fundamentalism in the early 20th Cent was fought in the Presbyterian Church. Since that time, the main body of the Presbyterian Church (the name has changed a couple of times since then) has accepted critical scholarship. I'm not *that* old but I've been involved since the 60's. I don't find that our approach to Scripture has changed since then. The question isn't whether the Bible is "true" but what kind of document it is.
Seriously?

Are you actually claiming the mantle of Conservative Reformed Theology for the Mainline Presbyterian denomination?

That is simply absurd and you know it.

Does the 1967 UPCUSA alterations to the Confession of Faith and the ensuing controversy ring a bell for you?

You yourself have from time to time despaired about the 'silencing of conservative views' in the various trials that the PCUSA has endured. Specifically you made that comment about the Kenyon Case in Butler-Beaver Presbytery, Synod of the Trinity.

You can't have it both ways here.

The OP is correct, your denomination is haemorrhaging both members and congregations over many of these issues.

Incidentally, the term "Critical Scholarship" requires definition, as many conservative Reformed theologians claim to accept it as well, yet reach radically different conclusions.
 
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hedrick

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Seriously?

Are you actually claiming the mantle of Conservative Reformed Theology for the Mainline Presbyterian denomination?

Of course not. I certainly didn't mean to give that impression. The PCUSA, which is in fact the main Presbyterian body in the US, hasn't been conservative in your sense since 1927, and I would maintain that the modifications to the Westminster Confession of 1903 already made it no longer a conservative Reformed body. I think that's what I said above.

With respect to the OP, my response is that I don't see why anyone would be surprised that the PCUSA is currently "liberal." It's been that way for nearly 100 year. (I don't much like the word "liberal" because it covers everything all the way out to the Unitarians. I prefer to use mainline.)
 
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DannyD2

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Seriously?

Are you actually claiming the mantle of Conservative Reformed Theology for the Mainline Presbyterian denomination?

That is simply absurd and you know it.

Does the 1967 UPCUSA alterations to the Confession of Faith and the ensuing controversy ring a bell for you?

You yourself have from time to time despaired about the 'silencing of conservative views' in the various trials that the PCUSA has endured. Specifically you made that comment about the Kenyon Case in Butler-Beaver Presbytery, Synod of the Trinity.

You can't have it both ways here.

The OP is correct, your denomination is haemorrhaging both members and congregations over many of these issues.

Incidentally, the term "Critical Scholarship" requires definition, as many conservative Reformed theologians claim to accept it as well, yet reach radically different conclusions.

Most often "critical scholarship" attempts do move from the text we have today to something behind the text. Usually it views the books of the bible as works which were pieced together by many people over a long period of time.

I personally do not in general find critical scholarship of interest. I've meet several critical scholars when they talk about anything of a nature of prophecy for example state that it is proof the text was written much later than traditionally believed and in fact after the events in question. (of course you if you accept the claims of the bible as the word of God there is no necessity to make the move)

Not all critical scholars hold to the same points so they often disagree or may do things differently. Personally a search for the text behind the text is of little interest to me.
 
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nccountryboy

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I attended a Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church last week. The ARP is very conservative theologically. For reformed churches I have only two choices without driving for a hour plus to get to church those being PCUSA or ARP. I'd say with what I have read so far that the ARP is leaps and bounds more conservative than the PCUSA. They are also follow the westminster confession very close. I will probably have to drive awhile to get to the nearest Reformed Baptist Church. The 2nd London Confession is where my passion is.
 
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HereIstand.Todd

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I'm guessing not much of a difference. On the ARP website the OPC is one denomination they maintain fraternal fellowship with. I'll admit I'm not familiar with ARP as they don't have a church within hundreds of miles of where I am.

Its a really small church of only 44,000 members or so located mostly in the southern USA with missions churches in Mexico, Pakistan, Germany and a few other places.
 
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DannyD2

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This is what my church does:

*Salutation
*Call to Worship
*Opening Hymn
*Confession of Faith (varies sometimes apostles creed or bit from Westminster or other confession)
Anthem (choir or music from church members)
The Confession and Assurance
The Law of God From Scripture
The Prayer of Confession
The Declaration of Pardon
*Hymn of Thanksgiving
Old Testament Scripture Read
New Testament Scripture Read
Sermon Text read if 3rd text
*Hymn (sometimes)
Sermon
*Hymn of response
Intercessory Prayer
Offering and Offertory
*Doxology and Prayer of Dedication
*Hymn
*Benediction
*Postlude

Had the order of worship from this morning still.

Edit: Tidied a bit.
 
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HereIstand.Todd

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This is what my church does:

*Salutation
*Call to Worship
*Opening Hymn
*Confession of Faith (varies sometimes apostles creed or bit from Westminster or other confession)
Anthem (choir or music form church members)
The Confession of Assurance
The Law of God From Scripture
The Prayer of Confession
The Declaration of Pardon
*Hymn of Thanksgiving
Old Testament Scripture Read
New Testament Scripture Read
Sermon Text read if 3rd text
*Hymn (sometimes)
Sermon
*Hymn of response
Intercessory Prayer
Offering and Offertory
*Doxology and Prayer of Dedication
*Benediction
*Postlude

Had the order of worship from this morning still.

Thanks for posting. What is the hymn of response? Is it where each person reflects and applies the message to their life or is it like a hymn of invitation such as found in baptist churches?

Its similar to the ARP with the exception being the declaration of pardon. We have a prayer where we do confess sin before God but there is not a actual public pardon as done by a minister. My aunts church (PCUSA) does this in her church.
 
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