Why is the crucifixion so meaningful when the rise of Jesus means he sacrificed very little?

FireDragon76

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To get back to your original question, Jesus death was meaningful because it was gratuitous. God was not compelled to save us except out of love. The merit of his sacrifice went beyond what was obligatory.
 
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To get back to your original question, Jesus death was meaningful because it was gratuitous. God was not compelled to save us except out of love. The merit of his sacrifice went beyond what was obligatory.

Yeah, back to the original question, thank you.

I guess based on the answers I've seen so far... I have some further questions, which I have seen answers for but they might not be your answers so I'll ask them here.

I suppose in some ways based on the responses I've gotten, he really didn't die at all - but in being "killed", transcended death. Can it rightly be called a "sacrifice" at all when nothing was given up? Was there actually something given up? Or did it happen the way it did mostly as a form of symbolism?
 
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FireDragon76

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No, we believe Jesus really died. As a Lutheran (like many other traditional Christians), we confess in the Apostles Creed that Christ "descended to the dead". Death could not contain him, of course, but he did die a true death. His heart stopped beating and he "gave up the spirit". Not only that, but it was an extremely painful and humiliating death. He did not die of old age shot up on morphine.
 
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brightlights

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Actually, the ransom view he mentioned is older than a satisfactionary or substitutionary viewpoint.

The satisfaction/substitution view emerged from the medieval system of penances, which in turn came from Roman legal concepts. During the middle ages, western theology took a rationalistic turn and started thinking of divine justice abstractly. Not all Christians have had this perspective (it's certainly not a common theme among Eastern Christians), and it's not wrong to talk about other things that Christ accomplished through his Cross.

Hmmm. As I read it, the idea of substitutionary atonement came from the Old Testament. An animal sacrifice would be brought to the priest in order to be slaughtered as a sacrifice of atonement for the sinner. The animal would symbolically bear the worshipper's sin and would die for it.

This theme is also picked up in Isaiah 53 but is applied to the suffering servant of God who is put forth as a sacrifice for sins.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Agreed. Christ really did die. Being God, and essentially Life itself, death cannot contain Him, which is essentially how it was defeated.

(Someone once explained by overinflating a balloon until it burst.)

But He really did die. That's one reason WHY He had to take on human flesh - so that He could die. Otherwise it would not have been possible.
 
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brightlights

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Here's a selection from the Heidelberg Catechism on the importance of the Resurrection -

45 Q. How does Christ's resurrection benefit us?
A. First, by his resurrection he has overcome death,
so that he might make us share in the righteousness
he won for us by his death. (Rom 4:25, 1 Cor 15:16-20, 1 Pet 1:3-5)

Second, by his power we too
are already now resurrected to a new life. (Rom 6:5-11, Eph 2:4-6, Col 3:1-4)

Third, Christ's resurrection
is a guarantee of our glorious resurrection. (Rom 8:11, 1 Cor 15:12-23, Phil 3:20-21)
 
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bling

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I've heard from Christians before a lot of reasons why the death of Jesus is important and how he sacrificed himself for the good of all of us. I've read many different explanations for the method. I don't quite understand how most of them work with the belief that Jesus then rose from the dead, though.

I understand it in terms of the traditional reading of the crucifixion - that God sacrificed Jesus to Satan as part of a literal deal with the devil, trading him for humanity (which he acquired after Adam and Eve accepted his deal back in Eden), but that God tricked the devil by bringing Jesus back to eternal life, fulfilling the deal but leaving the devil with nothing. ( Based on Mark 10:45 and 1 Timothy 2:5-6) That interpretation of events makes sense to me.

But it's my understanding that modern Christianity has generally done away with that traditional interpretation and come up with new ways to view the crucifixion, and has largely been replaced with Satisfaction and Substitution based interpretations. But I don't understand how the resurrection of Jesus fits within those, and I was hoping someone would be able to help explain it to me.

The subject you are addressing is huge since books have been written on it with lots of different conclusions; mostly due to the preconceived ideas of the authors.


We can work on this together and draw our own most likely alternative interpretation that will be very biblical, consistent and logical.


To begin with:


During the time of Christ, the Jewish people in and around Jerusalem would have had a much better understanding of atonement since atonement sacrifices were going on every hour at the temple, maybe thousands each day. All mature adults would have most likely participated in the individual process of atonement, but this was only for unintentional sins (really minor sins) since intentional sins had no Old Testament system for atonement.


Those only able to afford a bag of flour (Lev. 5) certainly would not have considered that bag of flour to be a “substitute” for them. There is nothing to suggest the Jewish people ever thought of any sacrifices to be substitutes for them. So what did they experience in this atonement process for unintentional sins?

If we could relate to their atonement experience for “minor” sins we might be able to extrapolate to what the atonement process would be like for intentional sins? (Read Lev. 5)


Forgiveness for unintentional sins came after the completion of the atonement process (Lev. 5), but did God need a bag of flour to forgive the person’s sins?


Would God need anything to forgive a person’s sins or is it the person needing something to accept that forgiveness as pure charity?


Is Christ Crucified described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom payment (it is not even said to be like a ransom payment, but it was a ransom payment)?


I find the ransom description more than just an analogy to be an excellent fit and I am not talking about the “Ransom Theory of Atonement”

(The “Ransom Theory of Atonement” has God paying satan the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ but: Does God owe Satan anything? Is there some cosmic “law” saying you have to pay the kidnapper? Would it not be wrong for God to pay satan, if God could just as easily and safely take back His children without paying satan?)


Would a ransom as those in the first century might understand it (it was well known Caesura at 21 had been kidnapped and a ransom paid for him) included the following elements:


1. Someone other than the captive paying the ransom.

2. The payment is a huge sacrificial payment for the payer, who would personally prefer not to pay.

3. Since those that come to God must come as children, it is the children of God that go to the Father.

4. The payer cannot safely or for some other reason get his children any other way than making the payment.

5. The kidnapper is totally undeserving.

6. The kidnapper can accept or reject the payment.



Go to Luke 15: 11-32 the prodigal son story to illustrate:


Who in the middle of the night snuck in and dragged off the young son, force the son to do evil stuff and finally chained him to a pigsty starving to death? (this is not the way it happened, but the child of the father was kidnapped.)


Who returned to the father, was it the son that rebelliously wished his father’s death so he could get his inheritance or was it the child of the father?


We can only come to our Father as children, so who is keeping the nonbeliever in the unbelieving state (who is this kidnapper)?


There is the one ransom, but could there be many kidnappers and many children?


Who are the kidnappers?


Looking at verses in particular:


(NIV) Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—


“God presented” this might be better expressed as “God is offering” since it will later be received, received or rejected on the contingency of some kind of “faith”. Instead of received it might better be translated as accepted (with the option of being rejected or not accepted).

“Sacrifice of atonement” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer as the “ransom payment” or just “ransom”. So God is offering a ransom payment to be accepted by those with faith or rejected by those refusing or just not accepted by those lacking faith.


A huge part of that ransom payment that especially applies to those that are already Christians is the life giving cleansing blood of Christ. Christ and God would have personally preferred that blood remained in Christ’s veins, but I needed it given up by Christ to flow over both my outside and my heart to know, experience, “trust” and feel I am cleansed and made alive. So Christ willingly gave up His blood for me and because of me. This is an overwhelming tragedy I insisted on to believe: I was made holy, righteous and stand justified. Without knowing and feeling this blood flowing over my heart, I might question my cleansing?


“Demonstrate his righteousness” God did not become righteous, but just showed the righteousness He has always had. (God’s justice/ holiness/being right) comes with the atoning sacrifice that includes the life giving cleansing blood showing God’s righteousness/justice in a very particular way; by resolving the huge problem that existed under the Old Covenant. That huge problem in the Old Covenant was with the handling of intentional sins that where committed, repented of, and which the individual sought forgiveness from God for doing (and God forgave without justly disciplining the sinner [thus not showing His righteousness through His disciplining]). These sins could be forgiven by God, but there was no way to fairly/justly discipline (punish) the sinner and still have the sinner live in the Promised Land. God did have fair/just punishments (discipline) for these sins, but the Jews could not follow through with them, since all Jews deserved to be treated similarly (there would be no one left in the Promised Land).


“in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” Instead of “unpunished” I would translate that Greek word to be “undisciplined”.

“because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”, shows the contrast between before and after the cross. This is not saying: “before the cross sins are now being punished by Christ going to the cross”, but is say they were left unpunished prior to the cross. If they are being handled the “same way” as sins after the cross there would be no contrast? (And there are lots of other problems with this reasoning.) There is no “punishment” (disciplining for intentional sins) before the cross and there is “punishment” (disciplining of God’s children) with the cross.


Any good parent realizes the need for not just forgiving their rebellious disobedient child, but to also see to the child’s fair/just/loving discipline if at all possible, but under the Old Covenant there was no “fair/just/loving discipline” so God could not show His justice/righteousness except to point out in the Law what really should happen, but that is not “good” disciplining, the child can almost feel they got away with something.


By my coming to the realization of my forcing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, because of my personal sins I experience a death blow to my heart (Acts 2: 37) the worst possible experience I can have and still live (That is also the most sever disciplining I can experience and still live). Thus I know God is my loving concerned Parent (since He at great cost has seen to my disciplining). I know how significant my sins really are; I can put those sins behind me after being disciplined. Since God and Jesus shared in my disciplining “I am crucified with Christ” (a teaching moment) our relationship is even greater than before my transgressing.

What is the benefit/value for us that we would want to accept the ransom payment of Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder?

What value benefit did it have for those 3000 on the day of Pentecost?

Would those 3000 have become baptized believers on the day of Pentecost if Peter had not been able to say: Acts 2:36 “…this Jesus whom you crucified”?

So for those 3000, their crucifying Christ (ransom payment/atoning sacrifice) resulted in them becoming baptized believers on the day of Pentecost! Did it have value for them?


This will get us started if you really want to know.
 
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TurtleAnne

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There is one reason that stands out to me especially, as far as why the death of Christ (in addition to the resurrection) is so significant.

To understand, I think first it's important to get some questions out in the open, the sorts of questions that believers might sometimes have in secret but not want to admit out-loud for fear of sounding blasphemous. But I will admit them here.

How can God understand what fear is like, if God can never be defeated?
How can God understand what it is like to be faced with doubt, if God knows everything?
How can God understand the emotional pain of humans, if God doesn't feel emotions the way we do? If God doesn't even cry?

In other words, how can God really understand humans, and how hard we have it, if the hardships we face never apply to Him? How can He understand how significant it is when a human overcomes temptations, if God never has to overcome anything like it?

If you really analyze a lot of the criticisms and doubts from nonbelievers, you might notice that most of them harbor these underlying doubts. You will see/hear it all the time.

"How can a loving god ____________?"
"Why does a loving god allow ________?"
"Why would God ________?"

They look at the world and see how screwed up it is, or they look at their own lives and feel hurt and flabbergasted.

So this is just one of the layers in meaning in John 14:6, "Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life," and then,"No one comes to the Father except through me." One layer of meaning is salvation, but another layer of meaning is in understanding. Through Jesus, and everything that Jesus experienced, including facing the pain and fear of death itself, we understand that God understands us.

When God split off a part of Himself, manifest in human form as Jesus His Son, this was a demonstration in terms that humans would be able to truly understand, of God's understanding and empathy for us.

Jesus faced temptation, both to abuse His power and also to refuse God's will.
Jesus had to struggle with negative emotion, including wrath, fear and sorrow. Jesus flipped over tables, Jesus cried, Jesus feared, Jesus felt frustration at the hardness of heart that so many people had, and before His dying breath, Jesus even experienced what it felt like to be "forsaken" (despair, abandonment).
Jesus experienced humiliation and physical agony during the torture He received.
Jesus experienced the pain of betrayal by His own disciples (best friends, in human emotional equivalent experiences).

Jesus is in essence the part of God who has firsthand experience of what it is like to be human, yet is still divine and perfect. Pretty much no matter what you have been through in life, you don't have to have any doubt that Jesus completely understands what you have been through and what you are going through now. Jesus' empathy is both divine and human simultaneously, as one of several aspects of His gift to you.

So this is part of why when we stand before God when our time comes (for each of us), if we are saved, then Jesus will confess on our behalf before God (Matthew 10:32). And through Jesus we are able to come to God the Father.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Yeah, back to the original question, thank you.

I guess based on the answers I've seen so far... I have some further questions, which I have seen answers for but they might not be your answers so I'll ask them here.

I suppose in some ways based on the responses I've gotten, he really didn't die at all - but in being "killed", transcended death. Can it rightly be called a "sacrifice" at all when nothing was given up? Was there actually something given up? Or did it happen the way it did mostly as a form of symbolism?

Christ did not die to deceptively satisfy a deal with the devil, and the understanding that Christ died to justify us by being a propitiation for our sins precedes even Christ's incarnation itself.

"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed...After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities (Isaiah 53:5, 11)."

This propitiation is given to the Father, because it is the Father's wrath that rests on us on account of our sins without the justification that is accomplished through Jesus Christ. As it says in Romans 3:19-20:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin."

And again:

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of His blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness, because in his forbearance He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—He did it to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus (Romans 3:25-26)."

So God punished Christ vicariously to demonstrate His justice, but also to satisfy His mercy by preventing that punishment from falling on us. Christ is the perfect reconciliation of God's justice and mercy, and justice can not be accomplished without punishment of sin, but mercy can not be given without that penalty not falling on the one by whom it is owed.

Sin is a violation of God's law, and thus it is to God that we must pay the penalty. Satan himself owes this debt to God and is under His authority; there is no equality among them. Satan is already condemned (John 16:11, Matthew 25:41), and must ask permission to attack human beings (John 1:9-12, Luke 22:31).

In summation, God owes Satan nothing; Satan owes God an eternity of debt which will result in His eternal suffering in separation from the presence of God in the lake of fire (Revelations 20:10). We owe a debt to God, and Christ's pays this debt to His Father.

To answer your question about the significance of Christ's sacrifice in light of His resurrection, this is no less true of our sacrifice. The primary difference is that Christ did not deserve nor need to die. But when we die or are sacrificed as martyrs we too will be resurrected and thus are no less "privileged" than Christ in this regard; we sacrifice nothing more than He does. But certainly we sacrifice much less, because Christ left the glory of His Father (John 17:5) for our sake, and was humbled in the form of a man and a servant (Philippians 2:8) to receive the wrath of God on account of a rebellious and wicked people who deserve nothing but God's justice. So we sacrifice nothing more than Christ, but we receive much more, as we gain Him and He gains the ability to express His love to us forever (regarding our gain as His in His incommensurable grace); Christ's sacrifices much more, and receives only the joy of our reception of Him, that we may enjoy Him forever (John 17:24).
 
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Xavier Cane

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I've heard from Christians before a lot of reasons why the death of Jesus is important and how he sacrificed himself for the good of all of us. I've read many different explanations for the method. I don't quite understand how most of them work with the belief that Jesus then rose from the dead, though.

I understand it in terms of the traditional reading of the crucifixion - that God sacrificed Jesus to Satan as part of a literal deal with the devil, trading him for humanity (which he acquired after Adam and Eve accepted his deal back in Eden), but that God tricked the devil by bringing Jesus back to eternal life, fulfilling the deal but leaving the devil with nothing. ( Based on Mark 10:45 and 1 Timothy 2:5-6) That interpretation of events makes sense to me.

But it's my understanding that modern Christianity has generally done away with that traditional interpretation and come up with new ways to view the crucifixion, and has largely been replaced with Satisfaction and Substitution based interpretations. But I don't understand how the resurrection of Jesus fits within those, and I was hoping someone would be able to help explain it to me.

His death is what purchased salvation for the world, not his resurrection. The resurrection was never in doubt, it ratified his death. At the point of His death, Jesus Cried out - It is Finished - it was then when the Spirit of God who dwelt in the Most Holy Place, broke through the veil of the temple, signifying that Jesus satisfied Gods broken law, and at man could now approach God without having a mediator, such as a priest, Jesus is our high priest and mediator! Amen, Praise God, I can approach God wherever I am, because the wall of separation is gone. Glory Hallelujah
 
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From an Article on the Sufferings of the Cross...I'm not the originator of this, Mp

About a decade ago, reading Jim Bishop’s The Day Christ Died, I realized that I had for years taken the Crucifixion more or less for granted — that I had grown callous to its horror by a too easy familiarity with the grim details and a too distant friendship with our Lord. It finally occurred to me that, though a physician, I didn’t even know the actual immediate cause of death. The Gospel writers don’t help us much on this point, because crucifixion and scourging were so common during their lifetime that they apparently considered a detailed description unnecessary.

So we have only the concise words of the Evangelists: “Pilate, having scourged Jesus, delivered Him to them to be crucified — and they crucified Him.” I have no competence to discuss the infinite psychic and spiritual suffering of the Incarnate God atoning for the sins of fallen man. But it seemed to me that as a physician I might pursue the physiological and anatomical aspects of our Lord’s passion in some detail.

What did the body of Jesus of Nazareth actually endure during those hours of torture?

This led me first to a study of the practice of crucifixion itself; that is, torture and execution by fixation to a cross. I am indebted to many who have studied this subject in the past, and especially to a contemporary colleague, Dr. Pierre Barbet, a French surgeon who has done exhaustive historical and experimental research and has written extensively on the subject.

Apparently, the first known practice of crucifixion was by the Persians. Alexander and his generals brought it back to the Mediterranean world — to Egypt and to Carthage. The Romans apparently learned the practice from the Carthaginians and (as with almost everything the Romans did) rapidly developed a very high degree of efficiency and skill at it. A number of Roman authors (Livy, Cicer, Tacitus) comment on crucifixion, and several innovations, modifications, and variations are described in the ancient literature. For instance, the upright portion of the cross (or stipes) could have the cross-arm (or patibulum) attached two or three feet below its top in what we commonly think of as the Latin cross. The most common form used in our Lord’s day, however, was the Tau cross, shaped like our T.

In this cross, the patibulum was placed in a notch at the top of the stipes. There is archeological evidence that it was on this type of cross that Jesus was crucified. Without any historical or biblical proof, Medieval and Renaissance painters have given us our picture of Christ carrying the entire cross. But the upright post, or stipes, was generally fixed permanently in the ground at the site of execution and the condemned man was forced to carry the patibulum, weighing about 110 pounds, from the prison to the place of execution.

Many of the painters and most of the sculptors of crucifixion, also show the nails through the palms. Historical Roman accounts and experimental work have established that the nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists (radial and ulna) and not through the palms. Nails driven through the palms will strip out between the fingers when made to support the weight of the human body. The misconception may have come about through a misunderstanding of Jesus’ words to Thomas, “Observe my hands.” Anatomists, both modern and ancient, have always considered the wrist as part of the hand.

A titulus, or small sign, stating the victim’s crime was usually placed on a staff, carried at the front of the procession from the prison, and later nailed to the cross so that it extended above the head. This sign with its staff nailed to the top of the cross would have given it somewhat the characteristic form of the Latin cross.

But, of course, the physical passion of the Christ began in Gethsemane. Of the many aspects of this initial suffering, the one of greatest physiological interest is the bloody sweat. It is interesting that St. Luke, the physician, is the only one to mention this. He says, “And being in agony, He prayed the longer. And His sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.” Every ruse (trick) imaginable has been used by modern scholars to explain away this description, apparently under the mistaken impression that this just doesn’t happen. A great deal of effort could have been saved had the doubters consulted the medical literature. Though very rare, the phenomenon of Hematidrosis, or bloody sweat, is well documented. Under great emotional stress of the kind our Lord suffered, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can break, thus mixing blood with sweat. This process might well have produced marked weakness and possible shock.

After the arrest in the middle of the night, Jesus was next brought before the Sanhedrin and Caiphus, the High Priest; it is here that the first physical trauma was inflicted. A soldier struck Jesus across the face for remaining silent when questioned by Caiphus. The palace guards then blind-folded Him and mockingly taunted Him to identify them as they each passed by, spat upon Him, and struck Him in the face.

In the early morning, battered and bruised, dehydrated, and exhausted from a sleepless night, Jesus is taken across the Praetorium of the Fortress Antonia, the seat of government of the Procurator of Judea, Pontius Pilate. You are, of course, familiar with Pilate’s action in attempting to pass responsibility to Herod Antipas, the Tetrarch of Judea. Jesus apparently suffered no physical mistreatment at the hands of Herod and was returned to Pilate.

It was then, in response to the cries of the mob, that Pilate ordered Bar-Abbas released and condemned Jesus to scourging and crucifixion. There is much disagreement among authorities about the unusual scourging as a prelude to crucifixion. Most Roman writers from this period do not associate the two. Many scholars believe that Pilate originally ordered Jesus scourged as his full punishment and that the death sentence by crucifixion came only in response to the taunt by the mob that the Procurator was not properly defending Caesar against this pretender who allegedly claimed to be the King of the Jews. Preparations for the scourging were carried out when the Prisoner was stripped of His clothing and His hands tied to a post above His head. It is doubtful the Romans would have made any attempt to follow the Jewish law in this matter, but the Jews had an ancient law prohibiting more than forty lashes. The Roman legionnaire steps forward with the flagrum (or flagellum) in his hand. This is a short whip consisting of several heavy, leather thongs with two small balls of lead attached near the ends of each. The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across Jesus’ shoulders, back, and legs.

At first the thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutaneous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by subsequent blows. Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue. When it is determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner is near death, the beating is finally stopped. The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement, wet with His own blood.

The Roman soldiers see a great joke in this provincial Jew claiming to be king. They throw a robe across His shoulders and place a stick in His hand for a scepter. They still need a crown to make their travesty complete. Flexible branches covered with long thorns (commonly used in bundles for firewood) are plaited into the shape of a crown and this is pressed into His scalp. Again there is copious bleeding, the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the body.

After mocking Him and striking Him across the face, the soldiers take the stick from His hand and strike Him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into His scalp. Finally, they tire of their sadistic sport and the robe is torn from His back. Already having adhered to the clots of blood and serum in the wounds, its removal causes excruciating pain just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage, and almost as though He were again being whipped the wounds once more begin to bleed. In deference to Jewish custom, the Romans return His garments. The heavy patibulum of the cross is tied across His shoulders, and the procession of the condemned Christ, two thieves, and the execution detail of Roman soldiers headed by a centurion begins its slow journey along the Via Dolorosa.

In spite of His efforts to walk erect, the weight of the heavy wooden beam, together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. He tries to rise, but human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance. The centurion, anxious to get on with the crucifixion, selects a stalwart North African onlooker, Simon of Cyrene, to carry the cross. Jesus follows, still bleeding and sweating the cold, clammy sweat of shock, until the 650 yard journey from the fortress Antonia to Golgotha is finally completed. Jesus is offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild analgesic mixture. He refuses to drink. Simon is ordered to place the patibulum on the ground and Jesus quickly thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moves to the other side and repeats the action, being careful not to pull the arms to tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement. The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes and the titulus reading, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews,” is nailed in place.

The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The Victim is now crucified. As He slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain — the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves.

As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet. At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.

It was undoubtedly during these periods that He uttered the seven short sentences recorded:

The first, looking down at the Roman soldiers throwing dice for His seamless garment, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

The second, to the penitent thief, “Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise.”

The third, looking down at the terrified, grief-stricken adolescent John — the beloved Apostle — he said, “Behold thy mother.” Then, looking to His mother Mary, “Woman behold thy son.”

The fourth cry is from the beginning of the 22nd Psalm, “My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?”

Jesus experienced hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins -- a terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart. One remembers again the 22nd Psalm, the 14th verse: “I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.”

It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain. Jesus gasps His fifth cry, “I thirst.” One remembers another verse from the prophetic 22nd Psalm: “My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou has brought me into the dust of death.” A sponge soaked in posca, the cheap, sour wine which is the staple drink of the Roman legionaries, is lifted to His lips. He apparently doesn’t take any of the liquid.

The body of Jesus is now in extremes, and He can feel the chill of death creeping through His tissues. This realization brings out His sixth words, possibly little more than a tortured whisper, “It is finished.” His mission of atonement has completed. Finally He can allow his body to die.

With one last surge of strength, he once again presses His torn feet against the nail, straightens His legs, takes a deeper breath, and utters His seventh and last cry, “Father! Into thy hands I commit my spirit.”

The rest you know. In order that the Sabbath not be profaned, the Jews asked that the condemned men be dispatched and removed from the crosses. The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary.

Apparently, to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: “And immediately there came out blood and water.” That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that Our Lord died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

Thus we have had our glimpse — including the medical evidence — of that epitome of evil which man has exhibited toward Man and toward God. It has been a terrible sight, and more than enough to leave us despondent and depressed. How grateful we can be that we have the great sequel in the infinite mercy of God toward man — at once the miracle of the atonement (at one ment) and the expectation of that triumphant morning.

Are you moved by what Jesus did for you on the cross? Do you want to receive the salvation Jesus purchased for you at Calvary with His own blood? Then keep reading.

Of course He is a mediator of a better covenant just read in the Book of Hebrews Chapters 5-9 you might come away with a better understanding of the price that was paid on Calvary...

Blessings,

Mp
 
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Greg J.

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This thread tl;dr, so just a few quick thoughts.
I understand it in terms of the traditional reading of the crucifixion - that God sacrificed Jesus to Satan as part of a literal deal with the devil, trading him for humanity (which he acquired after Adam and Eve accepted his deal back in Eden), but that God tricked the devil by bringing Jesus back to eternal life, fulfilling the deal but leaving the devil with nothing. ( Based on Mark 10:45 and 1 Timothy 2:5-6) That interpretation of events makes sense to me.
Neither God nor Jesus ever sacrificed anything to Satan (Hebrews 9:14 and others). God doesn't make deals with Satan, either—in the way you seem to be thinking (like it appears to some in Job). Compared to God, Satan as no power, no standing, no rights, and has earned (and continues to earn) capital punishment. It's better to be confused about why God has allowed Satan to live at all (for which Jesus gave an answer). The only rights Satan has are to exist and to be punished. Everything he chooses to do is "illegal."
But it's my understanding that modern Christianity has generally done away with that traditional interpretation and come up with new ways to view the crucifixion, and has largely been replaced with Satisfaction and Substitution based interpretations. But I don't understand how the resurrection of Jesus fits within those, and I was hoping someone would be able to help explain it to me.
Jesus died so that we could die with him. God raised him from the dead so we could be raised with him. That's a more mechanical view that is consistent with several other ways the issues can be understood.
 
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DingDing

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Why is the crucifixion so meaningful when the rise of Jesus means he sacrificed very little?

Easy for you to say. So when were you last tortured and then crucified for the crimes/sins of others? And when did you rise from the dead after that?
 
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J Stone

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You have to understand sin. To question the crucifixion. Sin is Selfishness, God is love, love is selflessness. People crusify them selves, family members and friends every day; even generations down the road as a direct result of sin. Sin kills love on earth but love is infinite in heaven. Love can also supress sin on earth with repentance. That is why our judgments towards sin can get us a one way ticket to hell. Only God can judge; that's why he says "who ever is without sin throw the first stone". Sin impairs judgment to where dark becomes light and light becomes dark. Jesus looks bad and the killer is released from custody over Jesus's being chosen for release. You see how he died for our sins. Sin will kill you, your family, your friends; it already killed God. Repent and help others repent to selflessness (love) or prove me wrong.
 
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Greg J.

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Re: Why is the crucifixion so meaningful when the rise of Jesus means he sacrificed very little?

Jesus had suffered his whole life, not just six hours on the cross (Isaiah 53:3).

However, thinking it cost him very little is backward. It cost him everything.
 
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Serving Zion

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Hi there, and congratulations! - This is an excellent first topic to choose :)

In the book of Revelation, we are told that war broke out in heaven and the angel Michael (Daniel 12:1) fought to overcome the dragon (Revelation 12:7-8). It was by the blood of the lamb that the dragon was overcome, and that is why heaven has been united in service to the holy one (Revelation 12:9-13).

It is interesting and educational to understand Revelation 12:11.

Why and how did they overcome the dragon by the blood of the lamb?

Interlinear translates:

And they have overcome him by reason of the blood of the Lamb and by reason of the word of the testimony of them and not they have loved the life of them unto death.

I would like to draw your attention to the word "διὰ" or dia - that is translated "by reason". When I examine this word on biblehub.com, it shows that the fuller meaning of this word in the original text contains such concepts as "by the instrumentality of", "on account of", "by reason of", and "for the sake of".

Do you wonder as I also have, why and how the blood is so central and crucial to their fight against the dragon? God is not with nor for, those who shed innocent blood. (Deuteronomy 19:13, 2 Kings 21:16, Jeremiah 7:5-7, Exodus 23:7).

This goes to show that heaven is consolidated in it's support of humanity through the blood of Jesus, where humanity takes side in reverence to His innocence (Acts 4:12).
I understand it in terms of the traditional reading of the crucifixion - that God sacrificed Jesus to Satan as part of a literal deal with the devil, trading him for humanity (which he acquired after Adam and Eve accepted his deal back in Eden), but that God tricked the devil by bringing Jesus back to eternal life, fulfilling the deal but leaving the devil with nothing. ( Based on Mark 10:45 and 1 Timothy 2:5-6) That interpretation of events makes sense to me.
This is a dangerous assumption that wrongly weakens God's image, makes Jesus look like a victim, and really goes against the essence of Genesis 3:14.

John 14:30-31 states that Satan had no power over Jesus. Satan did not demand Jesus' blood as a ransom for our salvation. Matthew 27:25 shows that Jesus' blood was demanded by the people who called Jesus a heretic. There is no scripture that shows Satan had any lawful claim to demand Jesus' life, or that the arrangements under Moses' covenant were not satisfactory for forgiveness and salvation.

One of the positive outcomes for us and for God, is that now we can worship in spirit and truth (John 4:23) directly with God through Jesus, and we do not need to approach God through an appointed earthly priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-25, 1 Timothy 2:5, 1 John 2:1). Also, because we have approval from God directly this way, we represent the authority of Jesus Christ in greater numbers across the globe (John 1:12-13).
But it's my understanding that modern Christianity has generally done away with that traditional interpretation and come up with new ways to view the crucifixion, and has largely been replaced with Satisfaction and Substitution based interpretations.
The original teaching is one of substitution though. It is a two-way substitution. He gave His life to purchase our life from the wages of our sin. Under such covenant, He pleads our case against the accuser before YHWH (Hebrews 10:14), and because we action obedience to God (Matthew 7:21, Isaiah 54:17), we represent Jesus on earth to carry forth His Messianic mission. (1 Corinthians 6:20, Luke 9:23, Revelation 17:14).
But I don't understand how the resurrection of Jesus fits within those, and I was hoping someone would be able to help explain it to me.
It is not clear to me why you have said this. Could you explain a bit more detail of the problem, the incompatibility, as you see it?
 
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faroukfarouk

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There is one reason that stands out to me especially, as far as why the death of Christ (in addition to the resurrection) is so significant.

To understand, I think first it's important to get some questions out in the open, the sorts of questions that believers might sometimes have in secret but not want to admit out-loud for fear of sounding blasphemous. But I will admit them here.

How can God understand what fear is like, if God can never be defeated?
How can God understand what it is like to be faced with doubt, if God knows everything?
How can God understand the emotional pain of humans, if God doesn't feel emotions the way we do? If God doesn't even cry?

In other words, how can God really understand humans, and how hard we have it, if the hardships we face never apply to Him? How can He understand how significant it is when a human overcomes temptations, if God never has to overcome anything like it?

If you really analyze a lot of the criticisms and doubts from nonbelievers, you might notice that most of them harbor these underlying doubts. You will see/hear it all the time.

"How can a loving god ____________?"
"Why does a loving god allow ________?"
"Why would God ________?"

They look at the world and see how screwed up it is, or they look at their own lives and feel hurt and flabbergasted.

So this is just one of the layers in meaning in John 14:6, "Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life," and then,"No one comes to the Father except through me." One layer of meaning is salvation, but another layer of meaning is in understanding. Through Jesus, and everything that Jesus experienced, including facing the pain and fear of death itself, we understand that God understands us.

When God split off a part of Himself, manifest in human form as Jesus His Son, this was a demonstration in terms that humans would be able to truly understand, of God's understanding and empathy for us.

Jesus faced temptation, both to abuse His power and also to refuse God's will.
Jesus had to struggle with negative emotion, including wrath, fear and sorrow. Jesus flipped over tables, Jesus cried, Jesus feared, Jesus felt frustration at the hardness of heart that so many people had, and before His dying breath, Jesus even experienced what it felt like to be "forsaken" (despair, abandonment).
Jesus experienced humiliation and physical agony during the torture He received.
Jesus experienced the pain of betrayal by His own disciples (best friends, in human emotional equivalent experiences).

Jesus is in essence the part of God who has firsthand experience of what it is like to be human, yet is still divine and perfect. Pretty much no matter what you have been through in life, you don't have to have any doubt that Jesus completely understands what you have been through and what you are going through now. Jesus' empathy is both divine and human simultaneously, as one of several aspects of His gift to you.

So this is part of why when we stand before God when our time comes (for each of us), if we are saved, then Jesus will confess on our behalf before God (Matthew 10:32). And through Jesus we are able to come to God the Father.
TurtleAnne:

I think it all goes to prove how wonderful the Incarnation is (John 1.14). Christ is the believer's Great High Priest, who is passed into the heavens (Hebrews 4.14) ; He Who became flesh, suffered at the Cross in the flesh and is now risen and interceding for His people (Hebrews 7.25).
 
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Jack Isaacks

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I understand it in terms of the traditional reading of the crucifixion - that God sacrificed Jesus to Satan as part of a literal deal with the devil,

From where in hell--and I'm not being profane--did you get THAT notion?

This is nowhere NEAR the traditional Christian understanding of the Crucifixion.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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