Why is Reformed Church in America in decline?

Radagast

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I'm not kidding. And you didn't answer the question. I'm not asking you to rank denominations from more- to less- liberal.

My claim was: Like the PCUSA, the RCA is at the liberal end of the spectrum. Like the PCUSA, it contrasts with smaller, more conservative, denominations at the other end.

I stand by that claim. Indeed, I understand that the RCA is formally connected to the PCUSA (along with the ELCA and the UCC). And that's all I want to say about the RCA at this point.
 
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Charlie V

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I will point out, for the record, that I, personally, am liberal.
I wish what you are saying is true.
My family has been in the Reformed Church for generations. My grandparents were founding members of our congregation.
I am part of the church, despite their being conservative. I'm the most liberal member of the congregation, surrounded by very conservative people, and I consider the founding body more conservative than our congregation, which is more conservative than my community. I personally would like my denomination to become liberal, and feel like I'm a liberal cog in a very conservative machine. I'm astounded that anyone would see the denomination as liberal. If it were true, I'd think it's a compliment, but it's not true.
 
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Charlie V

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My claim was: Like the PCUSA, the RCA is at the liberal end of the spectrum. Like the PCUSA, it contrasts with smaller, more conservative, denominations at the other end.

I stand by that claim.

I'm not asking you to back down on any claim. I'm asking you to clarify, because i don't know what you mean.

What do you mean that it is on the "liberal end of the spectrum"?

What, in the theology, is liberal?
 
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Charlie V

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Maybe a specific question would help.

Is the RCA's interpretation of Christ's death and resurrection liberal? Yes, or no. If yes, explain. If no, please give me an example of a theological point in which they are liberal.

"They're liberal because they're liberal and I stand by my answer and they're more liberal than others" isn't an answer, because it doesn't explain to me what you mean by "liberal" from a theological standpoint.
 
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Charlie V

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I'll even give this example, although I'm embarrassed to admit this:
Many in my congregation and in my denomination take a literal view of Genesis, and the story of Adam and Eve. That's embarrassing to me, because I personally consider literal Genesis to be an allegory.

Is the literal interpretation of Genesis as believed by the RCA, liberal or conservative?
 
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Charlie V

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Actually, I thought of ONE area that the RCA may be thought (by some) to be liberal (to me it's just normal): ordination of women as ministers. I'm so used to it I actually forgot some see that as liberal. I see ordination of women (outside of Roman Catholicism which is its own thing) as just normal and not liberal or conservative.
 
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hedrick

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It's hard to assess questions like this. The PCUSA, of which I'm a member, has made confessional statements throughout the 20th Cent. That allows someone to trace development of our doctrine. Many other mainline churches haven't done that. So officially their standards are the historical ones. But that doesn't mean that ideas haven't changed.

As an outsider, that means I have to accept the judgement of actual members. However I do that understanding

* denominations generally have congregations whose orientation differ; that means that one person's experience in their own congregation doesn't necessarily indicate the whole denomination

* there are some signs pointing to being on the liberal end. They're not definitive, but it's enough to pose the question. The RCA ordains women. It's a member of the more liberal of the two international Reformed bodies. It's in full communion with the PCUSA. It recently adopted the Belhar Confession.
 
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JM

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Church of God in Christ

In 1965, the CoG had 425,000 members. In 2012, the membership was 5,499,875, an increase of 1,194 percent.

Presbyterian Church in America

In 1973, the PCA had 41,232 members. In 2013, the membership was 367,033, an increase of 790 percent.

(Note: The Presbyterian Church in America was founded in 1974 by conservative members of the Presbyterian Church in the United States who rejected that church's merger with the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A.)

Evangelical Free Church of America

In 1965, the EFCA had 43,851 members. In 2013, the membership was 372,321 , an increase of 749 percent.

Assemblies of God

In 1965, the AoG had 572,123 members. In 2013, the membership was 3,030,944, an increase of 430 percent.

African Methodist Episcopal Church

In 1951, the AME had 1,166,301 members. In 2012, the membership was 2,500,000, an increase of 114 percent.

Southern Baptist Convention

In 1965, the SBC had 10,770,573 members. In 2013, the membership was 15,735,640, an increase of 46 percent.

Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod

In 1965, the LCMS had 2,692,889 members. In 2012, the membership was 2,163,698, a decline of 20 percent.

Source: FactChecker: Are All Christian Denominations in Decline?
 
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Charlie V

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I actually took a hiatus from Christianity not long ago, because of the rampant conservatism. I felt that by accepting political candidates that promoted war, that failed to care for the poor and the sick and favoring economic policies that favored the rich, they were washing the outside of their cup while the inside was dirty. I can't imagine someone leaving because of liberalism, but I view liberalism as, caring about the sick and poor and treating minorities as equals, and most of the time, opposing such things as war, the death penalty and torture. In short, compassion. I see religious liberalism as seeing God as a God of love and mercy, and not a God of vengeance against people we don't like. Unfortunately it seems conservatism as I've described has taken over much of Christianity, especially in parts of the United States.
 
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JM

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Pure speculation on my part, no research behind this thought, but I would venture to guess a sizable portion of the decline for LCMS had to do with conservative Lutherans leaving due to liberalizing going on in from the inside of upper management. Just a hunch tho.

That seems likely.

The other day on The Briefing it was pointed out that liberalism is really another religion and not Christian. It was pointed out that liberal Christians tend to follow cultural trends and not lead culture, to Christ or anything. They are just sheep following the latest trend.
 
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FireDragon76

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LCMS and liberal are two words I don't often see going together. Frankly I would be dubious of that narrative. LCMS are an inwardly focused church, and their version of Lutheranism has a higher barrier to entry, I think that would explain the decline better than the bogieman of liberalism.

The LCMS's big weakness if anything, is their turn to fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Bible churches grow on trees, and if you gravitate towards biblical inerrancy as the sine qua none, as the LCMS has for decades, then there's not much reason to be in the LCMS aside from German-American heritage. Jaroslav Pelikan was right when he said that the LCMS had become too much like baptists, one reason among many he left the church.
 
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LCMS and liberal are two words I don't often see going together. Frankly I would be dubious of that narrative. LCMS are an inwardly focused church, and their version of Lutheranism has a higher barrier to entry, I think that would explain the decline better than the bogieman of liberalism.

The LCMS's big weakness if anything, is their turn to fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Bible churches grow on trees, and if you gravitate towards biblical inerrancy as the sine qua none, as the LCMS has for decades, then there's not much reason to be in the LCMS aside from German-American heritage. Jaroslav Pelikan was right when he said that the LCMS had become too much like baptists, one reason among many he left the church.

After reading your post I realized LCMS is the conservative branch of Lutheranism. Thank you for the correction, and you're probably right, liberal Lutherans leaving LCMS for the liberal mainstream Lutheran sect is more likely the situation.
 
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FireDragon76

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After reading your post I realized LCMS is the conservative branch of Lutheranism. Thank you for the correction, and you're probably right, liberal Lutherans leaving LCMS for the liberal mainstream Lutheran sect is more likely the situation.

It's not really just conservative-vs-liberal like the differences between PCA and PC-USA. There are also differences that have nothing to do with the responses to contemporary culture.

The general trend is for both churches to be losing people due to the growth of "religious nones", specifically problems retaining young people, especially after confirmation. And also because of uncertainties about mission in a post-Christian world. As Hedrick has pointed out in the past, all the traditional Protestant churches have had trouble articulating why involvement in a church is important in the modern world.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I think you should take a look into the Episcopal Church USA, one of the most traditional in terms of worship style with one of the most liberal theologies out there today.

A few rogues aside, the preponderance of TEC is traditional both in worship and theology. Perhaps you confuse social issues with theology? True, we tend to run socially liberal on the national church level, but I think you'll find our theology very traditional. Oh, and my own parish has grown each of the last three years in members, pledges, and giving. :clap:
 
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It's not really just conservative-vs-liberal like the differences between PCA and PC-USA. There are also differences that have nothing to do with the responses to contemporary culture.

The general trend is for both churches to be losing people due to the growth of "religious nones", specifically problems retaining young people, especially after confirmation. And also because of uncertainties about mission in a post-Christian world. As Hedrick has pointed out in the past, all the traditional Protestant churches have had trouble articulating why involvement in a church is important in the modern world.

I can only speak on this for local Churches that I attended years ago on a regular basis (as I lack time to keep up with current trends in Christianity), but I remember at the time in a majority of those Churches, a severe lack of people that were around my age (in my 20's). Often if there were people around my age, they were married (I was single then) which made fellowship and social activities...lonely. One of the Churches where there were a few somewhat near my age, all of them could be described as a close tight-knit group not especially friendly to outsiders. I can totally understand why Churches are making cultural changes, like the incorporation of more modern sounding praise and worship, changes in outward representation such as wearing casual cloths and these types of things. These all spring from what Hedrick and you have pointed out about the trouble of articulating, of having an impact and significance to a post modern world. I am unsure what to make of the whole situation, only that the Gospel has always been the remedy in all ages.
 
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FireDragon76

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Contemporary worship is mostly window dressing on the problem, though, and may even be a turnoff, in some cases, for younger people sensitive to inauthenticity.

I think one possible solution is to emphasize the value of community, that people don't face the big questions in life alone, that they have some kind of touchstone for their lives.

But I also recognize the Gospel is central. The secret is how to make it comprehensible in a world where people are no longer particularly focused on the issues that drove Luther and Calvin. And I think that involves focusing on Jesus story as God's story about himself, and how that story can relate authentically to the experiences of real people.
 
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Silmarien

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A few rogues aside, the preponderance of TEC is traditional both in worship and theology. Perhaps you confuse social issues with theology? True, we tend to run socially liberal on the national church level, but I think you'll find our theology very traditional. Oh, and my own parish has grown each of the last three years in members, pledges, and giving. :clap:

I've noticed this too. I've been attending an Episcopal church for almost a year now, and while it is certainly socially liberal, the theology is very orthodox. We've had sermons about Atonement theology and the Incarnation, and a couple of weeks ago the priest tore apart the liberal social gospel reading of Matthew 25. No inerrancy, but a lot of correctives about what Christianity really teaches.

I attend an Orthodox church too, and while there are significant differences in emphasis, the theology itself is not terribly different.
 
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I haven't found a fairly conservative church that actually teaches doctrine and equips the members to defend the faith. We raised our children in Arminian churches; I can't sit through Arminian sermons any longer. A pastor said something to the effect that a person shouldn't be disappointed if he prays for a loved one to be saved and it doesn't happen, because even God can't save that person! Why not, I ask. Is a person's will stronger than God's? Is Satan stronger than God?

Why don't "Christians" desire an understanding of doctrine? People weren't even discussing it in the Bible studies I've attended.

As for the decline in several denominations/congregations, I think young people want more entertainment and larger congregations. I want less loud music and less theatrics, no coffee shops, etc. Certain denominations that were once overly conservative are becoming less interested in encouraging a conservative lifestyle. Smiley shrug.gif
 
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