WHY is pre marital sex a sin?

tall73

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Notice that sex does not equal marriage, here.

Also notice that the injunction about him never being able to divorce her does not mean that she is required to marry him. That would still be up to her father. (Exodus 22)

And this would not apply to widows or women who had been divorced, either. (No virginity, no bride price.)

Also, if we are getting our mores from ancient Israel, we are doing a horrible job. lol

You will note I did not endorse the Israelite way of doing things, but the law came from God, not just Israel. It was given to them in their context however, which I think is what you are getting at.

Even in this case if the union was formed it was a one flesh union for life, and he in particular had no way to dissolve it.


Again, it does not endorse sleeping around before marriage in case any were still hoping to endorse that (not implying you are in any way).
 
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Rhamiel

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we are created with minds, there is NOTHING wrong with seeking out the reasons behind things!

we should not shame our someone for asking questions
she is a dear sister in Christ and should be treated as such


sex before marriage is a sin, we know this both from Divine Revelation and from our own reason

In Genesis 2:24 it talks of man and wife becomeing one flesh

sex helps to form a bond between two people, and such a joining should not be done lightly
God made Adam and Eve as the prototypical husband and wife, Jesus Himself talks about them when the question of divorce is brought up


so sex, becomeing one flesh, is something that should only be done with a person who you give yourself fully to, so to really give yourself fully you should have nothing between you, and that is done in a marriage
between Christians, marriage is more then just a sexual relationship, though sex is an important part of it
it is more then a social relationship
even though the family is the basic building block of a society
it is a SACRAMENTAL relationship "what God has joined together let no man tear apart"
and as Christians, we should submit to the Church and be married with the Church as a witness
though from a true sacramental stance, it is the couple who officiate the Marriage, the minister is just there as a witness

now if people were off in Saudi Arabia or some other desolate land and you did not know when you would be able to find a priest to officiate a marriage, that would be one thing, but in a country where it can be easy to find a priest, a couple who intend to be married have no excuse for not being married in a church
 
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seeingeyes

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You will note I did not endorse the Israelite way of doing things, but the law came from God, not just Israel. It was given to them in their context however, which I think is what you are getting at.

I gotcha. Just a little humor and the end there. :)

Even in this case if the union was formed it was a one flesh union for life, and he in particular had no way to dissolve it.
The union would not be formed by sex though. That's the point I was trying to make.

“If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins." (Ex 22:16-17)

In this example, there is sex that results in a loss of virginity (which must be paid for), but the question of marriage is still to be determined.

Scripturally, sex does not equal marriage.


Again, it does not endorse sleeping around before marriage in case any were still hoping to endorse that (not implying you are in any way).
My virginity is a shadow of a memory at this point, so there's no purpose in advocating that. ^_^
 
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tall73

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Well, sister, I can't really speak with a Catholic voice, and I no longer look at sin "as a list of actions to avoid", and even if I did, I find the arguments about why pre-marital sex should make the list to be rather circular (fornication is sin, pre-marital sex is fornication. Why? Because pre-marital sex is sin so it must be fornication! Ugh.).

But if you allow me to side-step that particular mess, we can examine how our sexual choices can be governed by the two most important laws that Jesus gave. (Without exclamation points. ^_^)

I can see the danger of a list mentality. On the other hand the New Testament does contain some specific imperatives. Do you see value to those specific commands?
 
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tall73

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I gotcha. Just a little humor and the end there. :)


The union would not be formed by sex though. That's the point I was trying to make.

“If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins." (Ex 22:16-17)

In this example, there is sex that results in a loss of virginity (which must be paid for), but the question of marriage is still to be determined.

Scripturally, sex does not equal marriage.

Yes, it is an interesting example. The text does not say the father could refuse, but it follows from the bride price, taken the other laws. It would be a terrible spot for him to be in. Who would want to give her to that person, yet on the other hand given their views at the time she might not be able to find anyone else to marry, and may have difficulty supporting herself.

Sex does not equal marriage. But Paul does say you can become one flesh with a prostitute. So sex in itself does not equate to marriage, you are not married to the prostitute. But you have made a bond that was designed for marriage with the prostitute, and that is said to be a sin by Paul.

My virginity is a shadow of a memory at this point, so there's no purpose in advocating that. ^_^
Well, I assume some could do it out of something other than personal interest! But I understand the humor nonetheless.
 
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J0SHUA

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It is a beautiful, sacred thing meant only for a husband and wife. They come together as one out of love, loyalty, and devotion. That's how God made and intended marriage and sex. Pre marital sex is throwing all of the meaning down the drain just to have a good time. It doesn't matter if it harms others or not. It's contradictory to how God intended. Since God's intentions are His law and are righteous, going against his intentions is immoral and sinful.
 
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tall73

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The union would not be formed by sex though. That's the point I was trying to make.

The one flesh union appears to be a reality of sex per Paul.

However, I agree that at it's truest level it is entered into willingly, giving oneself, sacrificing love.

Which is why Paul considers the prostitute example a misuse of the one flesh connection.
 
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seeingeyes

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I can see the danger of a list mentality. On the other hand the New Testament does contain some specific imperatives. Do you see value to those specific commands?
That's a bit off topic, here, but I'll answer briefly (forgive me, OP!) and if you want to discuss further, just start a new thread and shoot me an invite. :)

So one of my boys smacks the other and I command, "Don't smack your brother". Then he pinches his brother and I make a new command, "Don't pinch your brother." Then he bites his brother and I make yet another command, "Don't bite your brother", and I add, "Don't poke your brother, don't shove your brother, don't steal your brother's stuff, don't call your brother names, don't make faces at your brother", and so on and so forth.

But it is still possible for him go against my will even without breaking any of my commands, because what I want is for him to love his brother.

The list is good, but the list is not the point.
 
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NannaNae

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For those who believe that pre marital sex is a sin - can you please explain why?

I don't need verses claiming it is sinful - I want to know why it is sin. For example - is it sin because it harms someone in a very specific way? How is it inethical? Specifics required.

here is my opinion and results of my study into why God hates men and woman so much... ;P


God created ADam, Adam was adam and eve together ..God seperated Eve from Adam. ....God created the system of SEX in that the act is the two become one flesh again , and that is the real meaning of Married . the two become one flesh. these family connections raise the best most spiritually connected and healthy families .
the only way to separate that bonded/marriage/ union is by death.
separation , loose living and or sowing oats, casual whatever .. and any subsequent new partners = adultry
Adultry releases death into the world and or is proof of a convenient with death. I really do believe that the act releases an actual entity of death into the world and it is going to get someone in that persons life.
covenants with death are what sin is .
not 3/4 of the stuff people call" sins " which are just social issues.
because to Christians all thing ( not of death ) are legal but not everything is beneficial. because real real real christians wouldn't do things which release death into the world. they wouldn't covenant with death !

Lying = falsely accusing others of crimes or such is proof of a covenant with death.
stealing is proof of some kind of a covenant with death.
etcetc.
the Big ten are all proof of covenants with Death= judging good and evil / being their own God in their own minds .
and these acts and others all release death into their own world. but that death means someone in that persons life will reap that death on some level . usually it is blood of innocent not always is it the person doing the sinning. Sometimes it is JUST death of a family. and lost children .

covenants with death is opposite of a covenant with life.
and covenants/Worship of Life or Death can not coexist in the same person.
that is how I see it!
 
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Hetta

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the only way to separate that bonded/marriage/ union is by death.
separation , loose living and or sowing oats, casual whatever .. and any subsequent new partners = adultry
Or divorce.
Adultry releases death into the world and or is proof of a convenient with death. I really do believe that the act releases an actual entity of death into the world and it is going to get someone in that persons life.
What you believe is pretty scary and non-scriptural.
real real real christians
Which I would guess only you and a select few are.
Lying = falsely accusing others of crimes or such is proof of a covenant with death.
stealing is proof of some kind of a covenant with death.
etcetc.
the Big ten are all proof of covenants with Death= judging good and evil / being their own God in their own minds .
and these acts and others all release death into their own world. but that death means someone in that persons life will reap that death on some level . usually it is blood of innocent not always is it the person doing the sinning. Sometimes it is JUST death of a family. and lost children .
Scripture needed.
 
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tall73

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That's a bit off topic, here, but I'll answer briefly (forgive me, OP!) and if you want to discuss further, just start a new thread and shoot me an invite. :)

So one of my boys smacks the other and I command, "Don't smack your brother". Then he pinches his brother and I make a new command, "Don't pinch your brother." Then he bites his brother and I make yet another command, "Don't bite your brother", and I add, "Don't poke your brother, don't shove your brother, don't steal your brother's stuff, don't call your brother names, don't make faces at your brother", and so on and so forth.

But it is still possible for him go against my will even without breaking any of my commands, because what I want is for him to love his brother.

The list is good, but the list is not the point.

Alright, it is a big issue and I have had enough law threads to last a lifetime, but just wanted your take. Thanks!
 
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tall73

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Adultery = fornication.


On the fornication question, let's take a look at I Corinthians 6:9.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

If you equate fornicators with adulterers, why would he need to list them separately?

Here the underlying word for fornicators is πόρνοι while adulterers is μοιχοὶ.

Perhaps you could say that fornicators are not spelled out as those having sex before marriage here, and it may be up to whoever claims it is to say it comes under the meaning of πόρνοι. That would be fair enough.

But it does not seem they would be limited to only adulterers or there would be no need to use the more precise πόρνοι following fornicators.

Or to put it another way, whatever Paul means by πόρνοι here, he is not equating it with only adulterers. (Some think the term πόρνοι is broad and could include adulterers but would not be limited to them. )
 
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tall73

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Rhamiel

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we are created with minds, there is NOTHING wrong with seeking out the reasons behind things!

we should not shame our someone for asking questions
she is a dear sister in Christ and should be treated as such


sex before marriage is a sin, we know this both from Divine Revelation and from our own reason

In Genesis 2:24 it talks of man and wife becomeing one flesh

sex helps to form a bond between two people, and such a joining should not be done lightly
God made Adam and Eve as the prototypical husband and wife, Jesus Himself talks about them when the question of divorce is brought up


so sex, becomeing one flesh, is something that should only be done with a person who you give yourself fully to, so to really give yourself fully you should have nothing between you, and that is done in a marriage
between Christians, marriage is more then just a sexual relationship, though sex is an important part of it
it is more then a social relationship
even though the family is the basic building block of a society
it is a SACRAMENTAL relationship "what God has joined together let no man tear apart"
and as Christians, we should submit to the Church and be married with the Church as a witness
though from a true sacramental stance, it is the couple who officiate the Marriage, the minister is just there as a witness

now if people were off in Saudi Arabia or some other desolate land and you did not know when you would be able to find a priest to officiate a marriage, that would be one thing, but in a country where it can be easy to find a priest, a couple who intend to be married have no excuse for not being married in a church


I feel like I was kind of unclear when I wrote this, I was crunched for time and I kind of rushed this response, if anyone needs me to clarify things please just ask
 
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Setyoufree

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For those who believe that pre marital sex is a sin - can you please explain why?

I don't need verses claiming it is sinful - I want to know why it is sin. For example - is it sin because it harms someone in a very specific way? How is it inethical? Specifics required.

It's sin because it's based on selfishness with no commitment.
 
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Matariki

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For those who believe that pre marital sex is a sin - can you please explain why?

I don't need verses claiming it is sinful - I want to know why it is sin. For example - is it sin because it harms someone in a very specific way? How is it inethical? Specifics required.

My understanding is that marriage is a long term commitment, sex on the fly can lead to a whole host of problems from STD's to unwanted pregnancies, and not to mention psychological problems with self confidence, worth and sense of equality. The carelessness, the disregard (and disrespect) and the harm that is inflicted is the sin here.

Marriage denotes loyalty, care, support, equality and maturity. I personally don't believe that marriage is defined by a symbolic, formal event like a wedding. I have meet couples that have been together for years, decades even without being married. In my book because they have shown that amount of commitment to each other for that long, they might as well be married. If a couple observes the tenants of marriage (whether they are legally married or not) then they are not in sin.
 
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