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Why is pornography wrong?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Na Nach Oi!, Apr 11, 2017.

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  1. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    This isn't about "anti-sex" theology--it's about pornography specifically. And some of how we understand the Bible on a moral level comes not just in what we 'think' it says, but also in how we approach it on a perceptual and a hermenuetical level.

    Personally, I think God is all for 'sex'---as He created it to be expressed in the relationships for in which He intended it, and it obviously wasn't merely for procreation but also for recreation and expression of love between a husband and wife.

    Sure. But I'm not here to dispute what the typical conservative superficiality may or may not be ................

    Yes, but that mistake doesn't thereby alleviate the contention that an interest in porn is bad for the Christian.

    Sure, but each interpretation of an individual biblical statement has its own contextual structures and reasons as to what makes it right or wrong (or unknown). Simply because some sex-related interpretations (like those of St. Augustine) were wrong in the past doesn't mean that the porn issue is subject to similar evaluations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  2. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    So, how does consuming PORN help to make a person become more consecrated to God, sanctified by the Spirit and actively living in holiness before the face of God? And when we consider that Jesus paid the price for us on Calvary, that is, He literally bought us--both body and soul--then our bodies are no longer simply ours to decide what to do with.
     
  3. Torino

    Torino Junior Member

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    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is a serious question, so I'll give you a serious response. I'm assuming you're a man, so if that is the case then you'd know how strong the male sex drive is. A lot of guys need a release regularly, and if they don't get this it gets to the point where many of them can't think or function properly. Sometimes it has been suggested that the guys just masturbate and have the release without using porn, but for most this isn't enough - there has to be at least some visual female stimulation. Using porn also isn't fully satisfying, but there is no guarantee you're going to find a good wife, so it is the best holdover easily available for a lot of men. I know of a lot of guys who are unmarried, and sexual pressure builds up to the point they can't think or function, and it affects their work performance, etc. Up to around age 30 for most men it's pretty rough. Porn is an aid in getting this out of your system temporarily so you can get back to work.

    People who advise such men to just do nothing are, frankly, out of touch with reality.

    Now understand I am not saying that this situation JUSTIFIES pornography. You didn't ask me to justify it. You asked me how porn can help a man live in better consecration to God, so I gave you the above example of how it is an aid in "getting the poison out" thereby clearing the mind and allowing the man to get back to his priorities.
     
  4. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    I hate to say this but everything you just stated is 'bull'. And how do I know this, you may ask? I know this (and I DO know this), because I've been 'those men' and I fully understand the emotional disconnect between feeling that you need something very strongly and realizing at the same time...that can't ever 'really' happen the way you think you'd like it to...that is, speaking as a common man.

    So, you can dispense with the so-called social lessons. You're not dealing with a neophyte, Torino.
     
  5. Torino

    Torino Junior Member

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    Calling my response "bull" isn't sufficient. I see the experience of guys I personally know, of when I was in the Army, and even my own experience on one hand, and on the other hand I see your empty claim that what I'm claiming is "bull".

    It'd be great if you could take some effort to be more convincing.

    Edit: Beyond that, if you weren't looking for anecdotes, what exactly were you looking for when you asked how something like porn could help one's walk with God? Or was this a disingenuous question from the beginning?
     
  6. redstang281

    redstang281 New Member

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    I think we're in agreement on what you said above. I'd just like to ask you honestly, are you sure you are really seeking Jesus for the definition of sin or are you still being influenced by theology which may or may not be correct. Are you taking an unbiased look as I am tried to do?

    I agree. I'm just not sure that just looking at a picture of a naked lady is contrary to being holy and noble.

    I'm presuming to speak in Jesus name? I'm just a Christian man trying to figure out the word of God. I never claimed to be a prophet or anything.

    Not sure why I gave you the impression I'm not serious about my opinion? Maybe you just feel my points not valid because they are contrary to modern conservative Christianity to a certain degree and you're not able to think outside the box even for a second.

    Because I feel that the church has a lot of incorrect views on sex that is very harmful. I enjoyed discussing that so that I can hopefully get to a correct view myself and encourage others to do so.

    My position on the porn topic is that having sexual thoughts, fantasies or viewing nudity and watching sexual videos are not sinful necessarily. But there are valid reasons not to look at commercial pornography that have been mentioned by others here and I agree with. That same reason also extends to many of the products we purchase food, clothing, cell phones that are made under bad circumstances that require abuse of other people.

    You've mentioned this a few times now. This view is not in the Bible though. Where is the verse that supports your view on this? God did make Eve for Adam, that was why he made her. I don't see how desiring someone sexually takes away their value. What about your wife? Is it ok to sexually desire your wife or are you taking away her value too?

    Being a virgin in Revelation is considered one of the admirable virtues they posses, which makes them a better gift. Yes of course to marry someone who is a virgin is a great gift, I'm not saying it isn't. But I still think it's a bit of a leap or jump to then say well if you do not provide your future spouse with the best possible gift you can give them then you are sinning.

    Also is there anyone who being a healthy young single person does not have sexual thoughts about some other person at some point? I'd be surprised if there's anyone who doesn't have sexual thoughts about someone they are engaged to even people who are saving sex for marriage.
     
  7. redstang281

    redstang281 New Member

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    So we can not do anything in life unless it is about being more consecrated to God? We can't go to the beach, or ride a bike, or go play golf.
     
  8. redstang281

    redstang281 New Member

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    Why not? Theologians can't be wrong anymore? Look at all the denominations we have today that can't agree with each other, someone is wrong on some things.
     
  9. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    That's a Red Herring. Keep the eye on the ball, brother Redstang. We're talking only about porn here...nothing else.
     
  10. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    You really are new, aren't you? Sure, different theologians can be wrong about different things. I have never been one to contend that various ones aren't. But, this isn't to say that Christianity needs to allow itself to become Hefnerized or that we should at least listen to Hefner and his ilk as if they have much, if anything , legitimate from which we can learn.

    Just because some theologians might be wrong doesn't mean that some Skeptics are right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  11. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    When I said 'bull,' it wasn't pertaining to the fact that we men struggle a heck of a lot with this issue. In fact, knowing what I know, I have a lot of sympathy. But, this isn't to say that just because the struggle is strong that we can thereby give ourselves some moral allowance.

    I'm just getting warmed up.

    No, it's not a disingenuous question; it's a question that is specifically meant to challenge you to consider how incongruous it is for us to say, on the one hand, that porn or the use of porn is morally permissible for the Christian, and on the other hand, that the Bible's contents don't really give us moral contexts that actually do permit it.

    So, where would you like to begin with the subject? How about starting with what the Bible shows to be the parameters that Jesus Christ as Lord expects us to abide by so as to live within God's Will as it pertains to sexual matters.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  12. Torino

    Torino Junior Member

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    2PhiloVoid,

    I agree we can't give ourselves moral allowance on the basis of the struggle. This is why I said I am not trying to justify it (in that reply I made). Instead, I was responding to your question with one way it is conceivable that porn could be helpful in one's walking uprightly in life (assuming it's a permissible activity, which I believe it to be. If you believe otherwise, of course my example isn't going to be acceptable to you because our starting points are at odds.)

    "and on the other hand, that the Bible's contents don't really give us moral contexts that actually do permit it." - Well, this is basically what the thread's topic is, and where the disagreement lies.
     
  13. ronandcarol

    ronandcarol Member

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    God created the Garden of Eden, with Adam and Eve communing with Him daily, completely naked. There was no shame or porn as we know it today. BUT, as soon as they sinned they quickly found something to cover up their nakedness. You can rationalize that any way you like.
    ronandcarol
     
  14. Ave Maria

    Ave Maria Ave Maria Gratia Plena

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    Pornography is wrong because it objectifies the men and women in pornography. It turns them into mere objects to be used for a person's sexual pleasure. It is also wrong because it usually leads to masturbation which is, in and of itself, sinful.
     
  15. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    I confess, that I do naturally have a biased view, because I see a world groaning under the burden of sin and it tempts me to speak against it. In saying this, through reading 1 Peter this morning, I have been reprimanded: my service has been motivated by a passion of my own flesh (specifically anger), which does not assist Jesus Christ to be liberated.
    Are you able to give an example of a holy and noble reason that someone would do this?
    When you became Christian, you must have understood that you are called to be a light in the world (Matthew 5:14).

    When worldly people see you and the badge that says "I am Christian", do you not expect that they perceive you to represent Jesus Christ, as an opportunity to judge the reality of The Gospel as it applies to them? When you speak to make assertions in that capacity, you are speaking assertively in His name. When you do so without His explicit permission, you are doing so presumptuously (eg, Jeremiah 23:21-22).

    I would like to share with you 1 Peter 4:11, because that pierced me too, this morning.
    Fair enough. If you would like to press on with me in my repentance, I will make better effort and maybe we will overcome this. Would you kindly not think of me in stereotypes though? TY :) :wave:
    You have heard my reasons for maintaining a different view.

    I only seek your honest, unbiased opinion, whether this behaviour that you describe "having sexual thoughts, fantasies or viewing nudity and watching sexual videos" is the sort of behaviour that you imagine Jesus Christ will have participated in? What about any of His 12 disciples?
    This view is in the bible, in fact, but I am prevented from publishing this due to the wisdom in Matthew 25:9, Proverbs 11:13, Matthew 13:11, Matthew 11:25 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2.

    I am not to deny you a cup of water in His name though, so I will suggest you very solemnly consider Matthew 5:28 and Romans 1:28 as being the lawlessness at work in Matthew 24:12, creating the society described in Luke 21:23 and this is what I am describing - our world this day is such that Romans 1:27-28 (Isaiah 4:1) - why? It is because women do not perceive that men actually love them. Whenever they see men looking at them, they know the man is mentally masturbating. Actually, there is more of a connection in the soul from their female companions, and when they open that door, they find more satisfaction there.
    :sorry: I have never been married, thus you might be best to inquire the POV of your own wife.
    Well, it's all rather argumentative at this point. Fundamentally though, the issue is that Christians acknowledge the fact that The Holy Spirit lives within us, and Romans 8, specifically Romans 8:13 explains that there is contention/struggle to gain our will, actions, mind and words, between our fleshly desires and the desires of The Holy Spirit.
    It begins when we open the door to indulge in the desires of the flesh rather than the spirit, and this is largely why I have condemned the irresponsible, demonic nature of public media. It is not The Holy Spirit of God that lusts after the desires of the flesh nor tempts us to sin, but it is of The Holy Spirit of God to see the person inside and connect with the heart - serving, loving, coming to know who it is that exists as an earthly vessel.
     
  16. redstang281

    redstang281 New Member

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    This is not a red herring. I'm not attempted to distract from the original topic, I'm drawing a comparison. I'm sure you didn't miss my point, I'm guessing you are trying to be misleading in your reply here so you can avoiding addressing my real point.

    You said porn is bad because it doesn't help you become more consecrated with God. My point is many things are also not not helping you become more consecrated to God but no one considers them bad, so why should porn be bad for the fact that it also is not consecrating to God.
     
  17. redstang281

    redstang281 New Member

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    Now you are resorting to being condescending?

    Whoever is right should be measured by the weight of their argument not by who they themselves are or what conclusion you think they are working towards.
     
  18. Torino

    Torino Junior Member

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    Redstang281, I'm out brother. 26 pages, and it's the same arguments I've seen elsewhere.

    It was refreshing to have come across you, and EmethAlethia. Peace to you and yours.
     
  19. redstang281

    redstang281 New Member

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    God does not have a lot of laws regarding sex.

    Leviticus 18 is the most comprehensive list.

    All of the laws listed can be summed up in the following catagories:

    1) Do not commit incest
    2) Do not sleep with a married woman
    3) Do not have a woman during her period
    4) Don't do anything with an animal
    5) Don't do gay stuff

    Jesus didn't add anything new to the list, but he did point out that if you lust/desire to have another mans wife the fact that you want to do it you are guilty of it.

    Augustine started a chain of anti-sex theology that went through the Catholic church and even the protested church. Because of that most Bible translations placed the word woman in Matthew 5:28 but really the word can be either wife or woman. The Tyndale Bible verse below reads wife. The context makes more sense as wife because this verse actually echoes Exodus 20:17. Not to mentioned if the word were really supposed to be wife then why would it be ok to lust after your own wife. Also how would you commit adultery with an unmarried women?

    28 But I say vnto you that whosoeuer looketh on a wyfe lustynge after her hathe comitted advoutrie with hir alredy in his hert.

    Man has added many things to the list. Pornography and premarital sex are not on the list. Lust in itself is not a bad thing, it only becomes bad when you lust for something you can not have because it belongs to someone else. When you have a sexual fantasy you don't necessarily even want to actually plan out and do what you're imaging.
     
  20. redstang281

    redstang281 New Member

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    Thanks, unfortunately for me I am a glutton for punishment and more stubborn then I should be.

    Send me a private message so we can exchange email address or something. We may be able to help each other further explore this topic in the future.
     
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