Why is Messianic Judaism considered Judaism if they believe in Jesus?

[ToBeLoved]

Those two are the headings of everything in the Torah and prophets.

How do you love G-d? the Torah explains how'
How do you love your neighbor? The Torah explains how.

Those are the commandments, all which fall into one of the two headings or categories that Yeshua said were the 'greatest'.

But you said that Jesus' words explained it in full. Now you are saying that the entire Old Testament explains it? So then why would Jesus not quote the Old Testament verses. He quoted the Old Testament all the time, but did not do that in the case of all the 10 commandments..

 

[visionary]

But you said that Jesus' words explained it in full. Now you are saying that the entire Old Testament explains it? So then why would Jesus not quote the Old Testament verses. He quoted the Old Testament all the time, but did not do that in the case of all the 10 commandments..

Good grief, He is talking to Jews who know it like a song... you don't have to sing the whole song for people to know what song you are singing.

 

[BukiRob]

Good grief, He is talking to Jews who know it like a song... you don't have to sing the whole song for people to know what song you are singing.

This is so spot on.... people need to STOP reading scripture and interjecting a gentile spin on it... people NEED to start reading with an understanding WHO the audience was when Yeshua was speaking. Its crazy how people will twist and distort to support a view that simply is not there.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is so spot on.... people need to STOP reading scripture and interjecting a gentile spin on it... people NEED to start reading with an understanding WHO the audience was when Yeshua was speaking. Its crazy how people will twist and distort to support a view that simply is not there.

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I do not think it was a bad question at all and I think that you are reading into it by taking for granted that it was already known and that is why Jesus would not have clarified it.

Jesus knew all of His words were going to be written down and I believe He chose them perfectly, not just at that moment, but that they would be recorded eternally.

 

[Shimshon]

I'm sorry that you feel that way. I do not think it was a bad question at all and I think that you are reading into it by taking for granted that it was already known and that is why Jesus would not have clarified it.

Jesus knew all of His words were going to be written down and I believe He chose them perfectly, not just at that moment, but that they would be recorded eternally.

Actually, I believe they are being recorded 'internally' within our hearts.

 

[Open Heart]

Exactly. Which is my point of why the Son of God came.

However, they have said the Old Covenant is superior so I'm giving them a chance to speak on why they feel it is.

Well it had a different purpose. The torah never mentions eternal life. The New Covenant is here to save us from eternal death. I keep the Old Covenant simply because God gave it to me and I love God.

 

[visionary]

I believe the keepers of the commandments and having faith in Yeshua is the path to sainthood. Here are the saints.. Here are they that keep the commandments and have the faith of Yeshua.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe the keepers of the commandments and having faith in Yeshua is the path to sainthood. Here are the saints.. Here are they that keep the commandments and have the faith of Yeshua.

Where is that in the Bible? I haven't heard that before.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well it had a different purpose. The torah never mentions eternal life. The New Covenant is here to save us from eternal death. I keep the Old Covenant simply because God gave it to me and I love God.

The entire premise of the Old Testament was that God was not with us the way He is in the New Covenant. We have God's Holy Spirit residing in each of our hearts. That couldn't have happened before Jesus death and resurrection, but somehow He did all of this to point us back to what we had before? Dying to forgive our sins and then pointing us back to the Law that no one could keep? Jesus said that He brings a NEW and BETTER covenant for ALL PEOPLE. Believe in Jesus but not what He died to give us.

 

[visionary]

Where is that in the Bible? I haven't heard that before.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Open Heart]

We have God's Holy Spirit residing in each of our hearts. That couldn't have happened before Jesus death and resurrection

Actually they DID have the Holy Spirit:
Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[visionary]

The entire premise of the Old Testament was that God was not with us the way He is in the New Covenant. We have God's Holy Spirit residing in each of our hearts. That couldn't have happened before Jesus death and resurrection, but somehow He did all of this to point us back to what we had before? Dying to forgive our sins and then pointing us back to the Law that no one could keep? Jesus said that He brings a NEW and BETTER covenant for ALL PEOPLE. Believe in Jesus but not what He died to give us.

It could have been the experience of the entire crowd at Mount Sinai.. but alas only 70 got that privilege...

 

[seekingsolace]

A noteworthy observation about verses supporting keeping commandments. There are many commands littered throughout the NT, so it stands to reason these could be the ones referenced.

Also the Holy Spirit in the OT was not a permanent indwelling.

Just my observations, continue ladies and gents. I have no intention of debating.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I think that it is referring to all believers who persevere through the tribulation period and remain faithful. Most Christians keep the commandments of God as they were given by Jesus. The word saints has been used throughout the New Testament to describe Christ's own. What is the original language world used for 'saints'?

 

[ToBeLoved]

It could have been the experience of the entire crowd at Mount Sinai.. but alas only 70 got that privilege...

You think that the people on Mount Sinai had God in their hearts? All the people on Mount Sinai had the tablets. I don't get how you are responding to what I said about what we have received in the New Covenant?

 

[Shimshon]

You think that the people on Mount Sinai had God in their hearts? All the people on Mount Sinai had the tablets. I don't get how you are responding to what I said about what we have received in the New Covenant?

God definitely expected the people of Yisrael to house the Words he spoke in their hearts.

Deut 30
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"

13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"

14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.​

Where do you get that the children of Yisrael where never able to be led and moved by the Spirit? We were created to stumble, AND to be redeemed. We are the example for you gentiles who will have the same mercy and grace poured out upon you. You who even though were not called to be God's people are given a chance to become one, even though your sins are as scarlet you will be called 'my people' IF you repent of your sins, just like us. In this way we are no different. We are all saved by faith through grace. Before and After the coming of Messiah, it all hinged on faith. If not, why did God state in the OT that 'the righteous will live by faith'? Or do you believe there were none righteous before the coming of Messiah?

 

[ToBeLoved]

God definitely expected the people of Yisrael to house the Words he spoke in their hearts.

Deut 30
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"

13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"

14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.​

Where do you get that the children of Yisrael where never able to be led and moved by the Spirit? We were created to stumble, AND to be redeemed. We are the example for you gentiles who will have the same mercy and grace poured out upon you. You who even though were not called to be God's people are given a chance to become one, even though your sins are as scarlet you will be called 'my people' IF you repent of your sins, just like us. In this way we are no different. We are all saved by faith through grace. Before and After the coming of Messiah, it all hinged on faith. If not, why did God state in the OT that 'the righteous will live by faith'? Or do you believe there were none righteous before the coming of Messiah?

I am not talking about housing His word in the people of Israel's hearts. I am talking about a specific thing that, but I am speaking specifically about the New Covenant where He has said that He will write His Word on our hearts.

Jeremiah 31:27-34

A New Covenant

27“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast. 28“As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the LORD.

29“In those days they will not say again,
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

30“But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.

31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Writing His Word on our hearts is one of the premises of the New Covenant.

 

[Shimshon]

Writing His Word on our hearts is one of the premises of the New Covenant.

Then I guess you're going to have to ask yourself why God commanded the children of Yisrael to have God's Torah to be 'on' and 'in' our hearts.

Deuteronomy 6:6 CJB
6 These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart;

​

Deuteronomy 11:18 CJB
18 Therefore, you are to store up these words of mine in your heart and in all your being; tie them on your hand as a sign; put them at the front of a headband around your forehead;​

If you notice, the new covenant did not change the Torah, it changed the way the Torah was written. Before Messiah he commanded it be placed in and on our hearts. He commanded us to write it ourselves. The new covenant is made with the same people, and the same laws, but this time he says that 'He' will write them on our hearts. And He will put then in our hearts. This is done by grace through faith. By Messiah. This transformed the Torah through fulfillment. Before he commanded it be placed in and on our hearts, now he commands that we allow Him to write it there. Because as we know, the law is spiritual.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then I guess you're going to have to ask yourself why God commanded the children of Yisrael to have God's Torah to be 'on' and 'in' our hearts.

Deuteronomy 6:6 CJB
6 These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart;

​

Deuteronomy 11:18 CJB
18 Therefore, you are to store up these words of mine in your heart and in all your being; tie them on your hand as a sign; put them at the front of a headband around your forehead;​

If you notice, the new covenant did not change the Torah, it changed the way the Torah was written. Before Messiah he commanded it be placed in and on our hearts. He commanded us to write it ourselves. The new covenant is made with the same people, and the same laws, but this time he says that 'He' will write them on our hearts. And He will put then in our hearts. This is done by grace through faith. By Messiah. This transformed the Torah through fulfillment. Before he commanded it be placed in and on our hearts, now he commands that we allow Him to write it there. Because as we know, the law is spiritual.

There is a big difference of having His Words on your heart and having God Himself write His Word on our hearts. I think that you are making way too lightly of this part of the New Covenant.

Also, it is not just the Law, but His entire Word.

As far as your statement that the New Covenant was made with the same people and the same laws, that is not true. The New Covenant is for ALL the Old Covenant was not. Jesus redefined the Law because no one could keep it. He fulfilled the Law and then made it new.

To prove that point there were no dietary restrictions, nor was circumcision demanded, so definately new.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then I guess you're going to have to ask yourself why God commanded the children of Yisrael to have God's Torah to be 'on' and 'in' our hearts.

Deuteronomy 6:6 CJB
6 These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart;

​

Deuteronomy 11:18 CJB
18 Therefore, you are to store up these words of mine in your heart and in all your being; tie them on your hand as a sign; put them at the front of a headband around your forehead;​

If you notice, the new covenant did not change the Torah, it changed the way the Torah was written. Before Messiah he commanded it be placed in and on our hearts. He commanded us to write it ourselves. The new covenant is made with the same people, and the same laws, but this time he says that 'He' will write them on our hearts. And He will put then in our hearts. This is done by grace through faith. By Messiah. This transformed the Torah through fulfillment. Before he commanded it be placed in and on our hearts, now he commands that we allow Him to write it there. Because as we know, the law is spiritual.

I am not arguing that the Torah is not the Word of God. What I am saying is that there was always to be a New Covenant when the messiah came. The Old Covenant was in effect for a long time that is Biblical history, no one is agruing that.

But to accept that Jesus is the Messiah and then not to believe His Words is confusing to me. Even Jeremiah spoke of a New Covenant that was coming in the Old Testament. How can that be denied than? How can the case be made that the New Covenant and to overcome sin is the entire reason that Jesus came.

To see it otherwise does not make sense to me because it is written in both the Old and New Testaments.