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Why is it that....

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by tigersnare, Jul 23, 2003.

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  1. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist
    Help me understand your religion and the reasons why you do some of the things you do.


    1. Why do you pray to anyone other than god?

    2. Why do you confess your sins to a priest?

    3. Why are you taught Mary was born without sin?

    4. Do you belive you are the only church that leads to eternity with God? (This one seems obviously crazy, but I've actually been attacked with it before).

    I am a Christian, I go to a Non-Denonmenation Church, and I'm a firm believer in the word and the directions of the holy spirit.
     
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  2. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,247
    Catholic
    1. Why do you pray to anyone other than god?

    Because the word "pray" simply means "to ask". So if I ask you to pray intercessorially for me, as directed by St. Paul, then I've just prayed to you.

    2. Why do you confess your sins to a priest?

    Because we are told to confess our sins to one another.

    3. Why are you taught Mary was born without sin?

    Because she was. This is taught by referencing the Scriptures and what is taught in Tradition, the two foundations upon which the Catholic Christian faith is built.

    4. Do you belive you are the only church that leads to eternity with God?

    We believe that we have the fullness of the Truth, but not that we are the only Christians on the planet, nor do we think that we are the sole heirs of heaven. Catholics view their faith as a journey. You don't get to heaven just because you're Catholic, you obtain heaven by obeying God, through Jesus Christ.

    I know those are short answers, and may not have helped much, but I'm sure other people will expound on this as well.
     
  3. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist


    Which scriptures are these?
     
  4. Bastoune

    Bastoune Well-Known Member

    +47
    Catholic
     
  5. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,247
    Catholic
    Luke 1:28 for starts, there is also the Biblical type of Mary as the Ark of the New Convenant and the Biblical type of Mary as the Second Eve (Eve who was born free from sin). These are all further clarified by the teachings of the Early Church Fathers.
     
  6. artnalex

    artnalex Well-Known Member

    +65
    Catholic
    tigersnare,
    the teaching that Mary is sinless is not a new one. In fact, it has always been taught as such. People like Martin Luther and Calvin also believed in her perpetual virginity and her sinlessness.

    As for scriptural passages, I will get some and post them tonight, when I get home from work. But before I do my research, ask yourself if Jesus could have been associated with sin in any way. Because if Mary was sinful, then Jesus would have had the stain of Original Sin as well. Remember, Catholics do not believe that Mary was without Original Sin because of her own doing. We believe that God made it so. we do believe that her acceptance of God's will is what made her sinless the rest of her life. But again, I will get you some scriptural text to help elucidate the point.
     
  7. artnalex

    artnalex Well-Known Member

    +65
    Catholic
    Ooops, I guess others beat me to it.
     
  8. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist
    I know this is not the place for a debate, and that here we can only agree to disagree. So I will just ask another question about Mary.


    If Mary was sinless as you say she was by making parrells between her and the Ark of the Covanent, why does Paul say "all fall short of the glory of god"? If she was sinless, why would she also fall short?


    Also, let me see if I understand this correctly, although Mary was born of man and would by the law inherit the sinful nature, you say she was saved by grace of god from the sinful nature? Just seeing if I have this right.
     
  9. artnalex

    artnalex Well-Known Member

    +65
    Catholic
    Yes, Paul does say that all have committed sin, however, the Catholic Church teaches that it was not a blanket statement - for if it was, then Jesus would have sinned too, right. And we beleive that Jesus never sinned.
     
  10. Benedicta00

    Benedicta00 Well-Known Member

    +816
    Catholic
    Private
    1. Why do you pray to anyone other than god?

    We don't pray to anyone but God. We request that the saints and Mary pray for us and with us and we "pray" in the sense that we ask them to pray for us. We "pray" to God for our needs to be met and to know his will, we only pray to God in that sense and no one else. We do not believe that anyone else has the power to answer Prayers, we only believe God answers prayers but we do acknowledge that the prayers of the righteous prevails much so we believe the saints who are in heaven beholding the beatific vision, prayers are more effective than one who has not yet made to heaven yet.

    2. Why do you confess your sins to a priest?

    Because that is what Jesus told us to do.

    John 20: 21 (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

    A priest has the authority given to him by Christ through the bishop who ordains the priest which is a successor of the apostles.

    3. Why are you taught Mary was born without sin?

    Because we adhere to the teachings of the apostles and they taught and believed this.

    4. Do you belive you are the only church that leads to eternity with God? (This one seems obviously crazy, but I've actually been attacked with it before).

    We believe the Christian Church is the only Church that is the path to eternity and we believe that a Christian who is not in the Catholic Church by no fault of their own is still part of the Church, they are just not one in union with us on matters of certain truths.

    We also believe that God can save anyone he wills through Christ so we do not limit salvation to anyone. God is not bound by his sacraments, he can save who ever he wills.

    I am a Christian, I go to a Non-Denonmenation Church, and I'm a firm believer in the word and the directions of the holy spirit.

    Good for you. Do you think it is the Holy Spirit leading you to seek a better understanding of Catholics? He works in mysterious ways you know. ;)
     
  11. Benedicta00

    Benedicta00 Well-Known Member

    +816
    Catholic
    Private
    She was preserved from sin at her conception. We do not believe that she was not able to be sinless other than by the grace of God. God saved her from sin but he did at her conception, the rest of us he did after ours.

    At the same time she was conceived, by a singular grace from God he saved her from original sin. That is what we believe. It was not by her own works but by the grace of God.




    Yes he at the very same moment of her conception God preserved her from the sin of Adam before it ever reaches her. He saved her before it reached her, he saved us after it reached us but in both cases, we both, Mary and us inherited the sin.
     
  12. artnalex

    artnalex Well-Known Member

    +65
    Catholic
    Michelle,
    I would check that. She did not inherent any sin at all. No Original sin and no personal sins (venial or mortal). Sinless in all regards.
     
  13. Credo

    Credo broken

    +142
    Catholic
    Married
    I certainly hope that you would not include Jesus in with the "all" that fall short of the glory of God. Assuming that you would not include Jesus, I will then say that there are exceptions to this statement, true? If there is an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one can argue that there is also an exception for the New Eve (Mary).

    An excerpt from Catholic Answers:

    ...what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11)...
    Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.


    Here's a link to the page in it's entirety. Tigersnare, please take the time to read it with an open mind, not preconceived notions.
    http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

    God Bless!
     
  14. Bastoune

    Bastoune Well-Known Member

    +47
    Catholic
    Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 ("All have sinned")

    (From www.scripturecatholic.com)

    Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

    Rom. 3:23 - "all have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

    Rom. 3:23 - finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "pantes."

    1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all ("pantes") have died, and in Christ all ("pantes") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

    Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all ("pantes") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

    Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "polloi," not "pantes." Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

    Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

    Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

    Psalm 53:1-3 - "there is none that does good" expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people "good."

    Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, "No one is good but God alone." But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says "The good man out of his good treasure..." So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

    Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

    Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary's Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb).

    Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

    By the way, Tigersnare, we don't mind questions here on this forum! So ask away, you won't be told to leave!
     
  15. Benedicta00

    Benedicta00 Well-Known Member

    +816
    Catholic
    Private
    I mean it in a analogy sense to illustrate a point that she would have inherited it by way of her being born to the human race like the rest of us if God did not intervene.

    Many Protestant thinks that if she was sinless then she would have had to have been divine or that her parents were sinless, etc. I am only trying to point out that she was like the rest of us part of the human race cut off from God born to parents who were also born with original sin only she was saved at her conception from original sin and any stain or consequence of it because God wanted it that way.
     
  16. artnalex

    artnalex Well-Known Member

    +65
    Catholic
    Ok.
     
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