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Featured Why is God omnibenevolent?

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by TheLostCoin, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    Based on the reasons that, people argue, philosophically and logically speaking, God exists, I have yet to find a compelling philosophical argument as to why God is pure good and not evil.

    Couldn't it be possible that He created us for sadistic enjoyment, to watch people burn for eternity, and lie about the Love He has towards us? Why should we believe that He is all Love and not pure evil?
     
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  2. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    Has God done something evil to you?

    (FYI, there is an implicit assumption in your question that the standard for evil exists apart from God, which diminishes his sovereignty.)
     
  3. “Paisios”

    “Paisios” Sinner Supporter

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    John 3:16?

    My own experiences with God convince me of His benevolence, though I fear that doesn’t help you much. Perhaps others will give better answers.

    (Friend, it seems you are going through a rough time spiritually right now, from what I have seen in some of your posts. I pray that you come through this darkness to find light and joy. You are in my daily prayers.)
     
  4. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    But how do we know it's not the opposite - that God is the source of evil and that anything good is the absence of God, and that all things good are subject to His evil?
     
  5. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    That's not relevant to the question.
     
  6. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    How do we know that it's all not a plot to make sure that most of the world burns for ever, and that is His REAL intent? That He tells the truth to achieve a mostly negative outcome?
     
  7. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    So far you're just playing word games. How do we know God isn't a toaster? How do we know circles aren't squares? How do we know we know?

    Maybe there is more to your question, but I won't be able to tell until you engage.

    Of course it's relevant. You're asking about "evil". Do you even know what evil is? Answering the question would indicate to me what you think evil is.
     
  8. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    I'm playing word games as you are. If we believe that philosophically God's existence can be argued for, the attribution of Him being a source of all goodness and pure good - Good itself - is just a premise that has no logical connection, which was the point of my original argument. So why, logically, is God good?

    And God can't be a toaster because that would imply that creation existed before God, which doesn't logically make sense. And squares can't be circles because the labels we apply don't change their essence.

    Based on the laws of physics and our perceptions, there cannot be a "square circle" because the essence of being a square (having four corners and four sides) is different than the essence of being a circle (having no corners and no sides).

    It's the same logical fallacy that "Could God make a rock so heavy that He couldn't move it," because the very essence of a rock is something which has a finite mass and can move via force. If you make a rock that can't possibly be moved, it would cease to be a rock, and fall into something without mass like Time or Space.
     
  9. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    I appreciate it. I'm kind of trapped spiritually in Sheol where I am right now, with no way of figuring out how to escape.
     
  10. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    There are actually many people that believe this.
    And they believe that way because of a misunderstanding of God and Scripture.
    I know God is good, because He who cannot lie said so.
    Either you can believe God's Word or not.
    And if the view that God is evil is correct, just eat drink and be merry for there is nothing worth anything.

    I choose God and life.
     
  11. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    Do you believe that? I don't.

    You haven't made an argument. You asked a question. That's my point. The reference to a toaster was rhetoric. You do understand rhetoric, don't you? It means I wasn't asking for a specific answer about toasters. I was asking you to clarify your thoughts. Right now all I have is a meaningless question.

    From your perspective? I don't know. What is "good"?
     
  12. “Paisios”

    “Paisios” Sinner Supporter

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    How do I know? I don’t. But I don’t understand God to be vindictive and legalistic, and my experience has not suggested Him to be such. In the end, I guess, for me this is where faith enters - a belief and assurance based on the best knowledge I have, even when I can’t know beyond any doubt. And all that I hear, see and have understood about God backs it up...I could be wrong and deceived. I feel for you - I have had such doubts and concerns at times, too.

    But even if so, to quote Puddleglum in CS Lewis’ The Silver Chair,
    “I’m on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.”
     
  13. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    If that's the case, you're probably better off talking with a pastor, a Christian friend, someone close to you about what's really bugging you rather than debating on the Internet.
     
  14. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    "to watch people burn for eternity" - this is a mis-teaching - and yes, sadly because of some teach this many do not come to the Lord .... shame on those who make our Loving God out to be a terrorist. NO He did not create us for sadistic enjoyment.

    No loving God would get any enjoyment out of torture, people are absolutely correct when they state this.

    In the end the lost, satan and his minions will be totally destroyed along with the earth. God will then make everything new and we will dwell with Him on the new earth ... a world without sin for eternity. Amen!

    Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . . You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet."

    Psalm 37:9-10

    9 For the evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait for the LORD shall inherit the land.

    Psalm 37

    10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more;
    though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

    Psalm 37

    20But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

    Psalms 92

    12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

    Psalm 104

    35Let sinners be consumed from the earth And let the wicked be no more.Bless the LORD, O my soul. Praise the LORD!

    Psalm 145

    20The LORD keeps all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.

    Matthew 3

    12His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

    Matthew 13

    30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

    Revelation 14:11

    11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ....

    Revelation 20:9

    9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

    2 Peter 3

    7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    2 Thessalonians 1

    9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

    God is Love! Amen.
     
  15. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    That's the second time I've heard this quote.
     
  16. “Paisios”

    “Paisios” Sinner Supporter

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    Sorry if it isn’t helpful. I found The whole Narnia series useful, but I especially liked the whole book The Silver Chair when it came to matters of faith in times of trouble. A single quote doesn’t do the book justice, but it does seem to catch the spirit of it.

    (Edit: I don’t have any good answers for you, but I wanted you to know you’re not alone in worrying about such things. I have been there in the past, so kind of understand. I wish I had a better idea of how I got through it, so I could explain it to you better.)
     
  17. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    I was just being as much of a syllogistic snob as you were my friend.

    Fine.

    Even though it's the case that humans have an intuitive sense of what is good and evil - regardless if you are a Utilitarian or a Kantian -

    Let's define evil in this case as "allowing suffering to occur so much that it outweighs the lack of suffering in this world and the next world."
     
  18. TheLostCoin

    TheLostCoin A Lonesome Coin Supporter

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    What's really bugging me is the world we live in, and how Graceless it is. Nobody - and if not nobody, than 99.999% of people - don't even come close to living like Christ, and as such, there's nobody to go to for help or leadership.
     
  19. Resha Caner

    Resha Caner Expert Fool

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    OK. This seems somewhat a utilitarian definition. You're comparing the suffering of one group to another group. I'm not sure what groups you're comparing, but maybe we don't need to clarify that.

    What we are still lacking, though, is a judge - a statement of who or what is the standard - a point I noted in my first post. So, I'm going to assume 2 things:
    * You are judging God's actions for this exercise.
    * It is left to the individual to decide what is and is not suffering. If they say they're suffering, then they're suffering.

    If you disagree, please clarify.

    I thought the Bible was pretty clear that the world always has been and always will be this way. Though that's an "on the average" statement. My experience is that everybody has their good days and bad days.
     
  20. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Does not seem that He would send His Son to suffer and die for us if His intentions were less than good.
     
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