Why is everybody so afraid of Islam/Muslims?

[conamer]

People should do a little research. Do you know the 5 pillars of Islam? They have nothing to do with harming anyone and are 100% what Islam stands on (Hence the name pillars) THere are sick people that use Islam as a tool for their wickedness the same way the KKK uses Christianity for it's purposess. It does not mean that they represent the true meaning of the religion. I think if 2 billion people went on a murderous rampage of Christians and Jews, we would be in a lot more trouble then we are.

How many were killed in 9/11? How many have been killed in the Iraq/Afganistan invasion? The numbers are waaaay lopsided. The US has literally killes millions of Iraqi people in both wars. No Iraqi people were in the planes, no WMD were found. Who are the invaders? Who are the killers? How would you feel if the Iraqi army had tanks in D.C.? WOuld you fight? I would

Muslims target and kill Muslims in far greater numbers for not being Muslim enough of being the wrong kind of Muslim and will continue to do so long after we are out of Iraq.

Spate of car bomb blasts in Iraq kills 70, injures hundreds, raising sectarian fears

Blast aftermath: Parachinar death toll climbs to 43 – The Express Tribune

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

It's funny how our liberal friends want to white wash Islamic history while holding Christian history against today's Christians as if the every offense was committed by Christians today.

Actually, there are plenty of atrocities committed by Christians today that I don't need to bring up the violent history of Christianity.

But it's funny that you complain about me holding historical Christian violence over Christians today when all your side is doing is holding historical Muslim violence over Muslims today.

Hypocrisy much?

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

The first pillar is jihad.

I would think that by now you would get tired of lying about Islam.

The first pillar is Shahadah, a statement of testimony that professes monotheism and acceptance of Muhammad as the messenger of G-d.

Ašhadu an lā ilāha illá l-Lāhu (wa ashhadu 'anna) Muḥammadan rasūlu l-Lāhi.

There is no god except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

Where, exactly, is Jihad in that?

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

You said you weren't interested in Muhammad's life

For the purposes of THIS discussion. Since the Qu'ran is the FOUNDATION and HOLIEST, MOST SACRED WORK in Islam, I'm going to start there, and then AFTER you show me some proof in the Qu'ran that Islam is inherently violent, we'll move on to the Hadith and Sira.

But first, I want the Qu'ran. Can you supply it, or are you just pulling this all out of your toches and can't actually prove that the Qu'ran is violent?

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Pretty much. If you look a few pages back, you'll see he even denies how the Muslims treated those they conquered, or if it really happened, it was justified because the Muslims were so much more enlightened than the Christians.

I'm not sure where I denied how they treated the people they conquered. All I did was cite historical fact about what the conquering Muslims did when they conquered a country.

However, I will say that for the purposes of this discussion, any violence on their part during that time is irrelevant, because the Christian armies were even more inhumane to their enemies and conquered peoples (which is pure historical record). Since nobody wants to talk about the violence of Christian armies, we won't bother with the violence of the Muslim armies.

Now, if you'd like to be fair and discuss BOTH...then we'll talk.

In all honesty, he comes off as a guy who has an axe to grind against Christianity and is using a discussion about Islam to do so.

While I do have many bones to pick with Christianity, I'm not picking them in this thread.

 

[conamer]

For the purposes of THIS discussion. Since the Qu'ran is the FOUNDATION and HOLIEST, MOST SACRED WORK in Islam, I'm going to start there, and then AFTER you show me some proof in the Qu'ran that Islam is inherently violent, we'll move on to the Hadith and Sira.

But first, I want the Qu'ran. Can you supply it, or are you just pulling this all out of your toches and can't actually prove that the Qu'ran is violent?

I have given much information in link that quotes the Qur'an and Hadith and quotes from the horses mouth(page 39, 40). If you don't wanna look at them it's not my problem. Also several historical liks too. Nor is it my problem you refuse to put the Qur'an in context by using the Hadith as counless Islamists and unbelievers alike use.

You want to view Islam through your bubble.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

(Yeah I know it's been a few pages since my last post )

Actually, there are plenty of atrocities committed by Christians today that I don't need to bring up the violent history of Christianity.

Like what? The only ones I can recall off the top of my head are abortion clinic bombings, the cover-up of paedophile priests in the Catholic church and Jehovah's Witnesses denying their children proper medical care.

Terrible as those things are, they're quite widespread among modern Muslims, especially in the Middle East. Here at least they're considered wrong - when we hear of the same things happening over there we barely bat an eyelid.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

I have given much information in link that quotes the Qur'an and Hadith and quotes from the horses mouth(page 39, 40). If you don't wanna look at them it's not my problem. Also several historical liks too. Nor is it my problem you refuse to put the Qur'an in context by using the Hadith as counless Islamists and unbelievers alike use.

You want to view Islam through your bubble.

No, I want to view it as Muslims view it, not as you say they have to view it. My Muslim friends, for example, rely on scholars for the Hadith and Sira, but have never themselves read it. They only read the Qu'ran, and according to them most of their fellows do the same.

But I'm not watching a million and one propaganda videos. All I'm asking is for you to post some verses from the Qu'ran. Like this.

Surah Al-Fatiha 1-7
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, The Beneficent, the Merciful. Owner of the Day of Judgment, Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured. Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

See how hard that was? It was pretty easy, and now everyone can see exactly what verse we're talking about.

And you keep claiming the verses are overflowing, so you should be able to present them easily. Right?

I'll even help and give you an online Qu'ran to quote from: Quran Explorer

 

[rturner76]

The first pillar is jihad.

Are you being serious or silly? If you really think that is the 1st pillar then that explains a lot about why you seem to hate these people so much. For the record the 1st pillar is a proclimation and this is the translation

"THere is no God but God, Muhamed was his messinger" If you follow a different prophet you would replace Muhamed with the name of that prophet like Moses or Jesus etc. FOr Jews and Christians.

A real Muslims know in the Quran it describes Jews and Christians ans "People of the book" It also says in the Quran if you believe in one God and the last day you may see paradise. That sounds peaceful to me. A jihadist is not a Muslim, they are just that, a Jihadist, they worship war and bloodshed. Not the true and living God of Abraham Issac and Jacob. Like the other 2 Billion.

I know it's hard to come down off the top of the supiriority hill people have built for themselves but if one can humble themself enough to realize we are ALL God's children, and sinners seeking God's help. We will not always feel so high and mighty. At least I try to work on it. We all have to face our maker ad I don't want to have to answer for being the judge of my neighbor when I don't even know him.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

(Yeah I know it's been a few pages since my last post )



Like what? The only ones I can recall off the top of my head are abortion clinic bombings, the cover-up of paedophile priests in the Catholic church and Jehovah's Witnesses denying their children proper medical care.

Terrible as those things are, they're quite widespread among modern Muslims, especially in the Middle East. Here at least they're considered wrong - when we hear of the same things happening over there we barely bat an eyelid.

Christian parents beating their children for mispronouncing words...a Christian pastor commanding his congregation to beat his son and his son's boyfriend as they came to church...the links are all over the other thread about the Qu'ran burning.

 

[rturner76]

Surah 43:63-

Sahih International
And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me.

Here the Quran says listen to what Jesus said. Is this your enemy?

Surah 43:61


Muhsin Khan
And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a ... Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore ... Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient ... )! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah ...

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Christian parents beating their children for mispronouncing words...a Christian pastor commanding his congregation to beat his son and his son's boyfriend as they came to church...the links are all over the other thread about the Qu'ran burning.

Again, those things are common practice among many Muslims. We've had a couple of cases here in the UK were teachers in Islamic schools were imprisoned for beating their students. When Qu'rans are burned over here, there's a great deal of fuss and controversy about it. When Bibles are burned in the Middle East, no-one is punished.

Like I said, the difference is that these things are regarded as wrong over here. Over there they are not. More worryingly, when we hear about such things happening in the Middle East we just seem to accept it - it's like we expect them to act that way.

 

[conamer]

Surah 43:63-

Sahih International
And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me.

Here the Quran says listen to what Jesus said. Is this your enemy?

Surah 43:61


Muhsin Khan
And he ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)] shall be a ... Resurrection) [i.e. 'Iesa's (Jesus) descent on the earth] . Therefore ... Day of Resurrection). And follow Me (Allah) (i.e. be obedient ... )! This is the Straight Path (of Islamic Monotheism, leading to Allah ...

Allah is not the God of the bible nor is Isa Jesus. The only unforgivable sin in Islam is to believe God had aso. The the bible it is ant-Christ to not believe in the Son. Exact oposite.

 

[conamer]

Again, those things are common practice among many Muslims. We've had a couple of cases here in the UK were teachers in Islamic schools were imprisoned for beating their students. When Qu'rans are burned over here, there's a great deal of fuss and controversy about it. When Bibles are burned in the Middle East, no-one is punished.

Like I said, the difference is that these things are regarded as wrong over here. Over there they are not. More worryingly, when we hear about such things happening in the Middle East we just seem to accept it - it's like we expect them to act that way.

Just burn a Qur'an to see how peaceful Islam is, you don't need to look inside it-although it helps.

 

[rturner76]

Muslims target and kill Muslims in far greater numbers for not being Muslim enough of being the wrong kind of Muslim and will continue to do so long after we are out of Iraq.

Spate of car bomb blasts in Iraq kills 70, injures hundreds, raising sectarian fears

Blast aftermath: Parachinar death toll climbs to 43 – The Express Tribune

So do you think that the Muslims that are doing the bombings are in the majority or an extreme few or somewhere in between? I think it is an extreme few when you compare it to the 2 billion Muslims worldwide. Maybe it's just me but 2 billion people is a lot to condemn for the actions of even 10 or 20 thousand jihadist soldiers.

As a side note, do you know any Muslims? Have you had a conversation with any. How about Muslim children? Are they also a threat? A 5 year old at the elementary school here in in a city in the midwest. Should I be alarmed? There is a large SOmali community in my city. How should they be dealt with? SHould we start to process them at Git-Mo?

WHat do we do about this problem?

 

[rturner76]

Allah is not the God of the bible nor is Isa Jesus. The only unforgivable sin in Islam is to believe God had aso. The the bible it is ant-Christ to not believe in the Son. Exact oposite.

You're wrong about anti-christ.

Anti-christ is one who comes in the name of Christ but is really doing the work of the devil. THAT is Anti-Christ.

Muslims believe Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, they don't believe he is God.

They are mono-theists who believe what all the prophets said from Noah to Jesus and they add one, Muhamed. They still believe in one all powerful God so I don't see how they could be talking about some other God. THough many Christians like to pretend they worship a different one so they can feel better about themselves and glorify themselves with their choice of semantics. 1=1 If they say "listen to what Jesus said" how can they be worshipping a different God?

What they have is a different understanding of that God. A different theology, a different dogma, a different, world view. Not a different God, how can there be 2 different Gods?


EDIT:
HOWEVER, You are of course welcome to believe that which you prefer to believe. I jus am trying to show that we are not so different. I believe that all human beings are God's children and we all seek to have a relationship with God. Some have a different way of relating than others. If it will get you closer to God than who am I to question that persons beliefs? I think we should spend more time trying to understand each other and less time trying to condemn each other.

Peace my brother in Christ. THough I defend Muslims rights to be who they are, I myself am a Christian now.

 

[disciple2011]

Yes, I've heard that excuse proffered by people of foreign lands as well.

And yet, the United States is a little over 223 years old. And Christianity a little over 2000 years old.

Do you think the conflicts in the middle east and between the Muslim factions are all due to influence by Christendom and the United States?

Do you truly believe that any religion is the root of the conflicts of the world?

Me I say its the stinkin' humans to blame. But then I am a realist.

 

[disciple2011]

So, we deserved 9-11?! We earned it!? Thousands of innocents deserved to be blown to pieces for what others have suffered in other countries, and all that is exclusively due to us!

Sounds like the rhetoric Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson spewed against us, shortly after the tragedy happened. No one can be surprised...



You Are Despicable. And a sinful insult to those who lost loved ones on September 11, 2001!
I can see your alleged experience in the middle east served you well. You hate us as much as they do. And for the same excuse.

No one deserves death.

But when humans stick with the ideal of vengeance, then that is what you tend to get.

We fouled up their lives, they foul up ours and we foul up theirs more.

You know what the next step is.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Again, those things are common practice among many Muslims.

That's my entire point, though. These things can be found in ANY religion pretty commonly. It's not the religion's fault these things happen, it's man's fault, because man is inherently violent and bad. Man will find any vehicle to justify their evil actions, be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu.

But in today's world it's only Muslims that are treated as horrible people when they commit such atrocities. Christians get a pass for doing the same things.

Like I said, the difference is that these things are regarded as wrong over here. Over there they are not. More worryingly, when we hear about such things happening in the Middle East we just seem to accept it - it's like we expect them to act that way.

That's also part of my point. Muslims in the Western world are a clear contrast to Muslims in the Middle East. It's not Islam, it's the region. The Middle East is just a naturally harsh region, so anything that exists in that region is liable to be harsh and violent. That doesn't mean we condemn the ideology, it means we work on finding ways to fix it.

 

[SmellsLikeCurlyFries]

Allah is not the God of the bible nor is Isa Jesus. The only unforgivable sin in Islam is to believe God had aso. The the bible it is ant-Christ to not believe in the Son. Exact oposite.

Prove the bold, please. You keep making the claim but never support it.

And I'm still waiting for some Qu'ran verses.