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Why is earth's AGE important to you?

oikonomia

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The question I posed in this thread is "Why is the AGE of the earth important to you?"

It should be important I think that Christians recognize the pre-adamic career of Satan
as to why he so opposes man. This stripping of the Devil naked as to his motives and schemes
is important in the church co-overcoming with Christ.

From man's creation it was ordained he guard God's interests on the earth.
 
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oikonomia

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"Now if you object to "became" there,..."

According to my Hebrew text, the word here that is used is "תֹ֙הוּ֙ ṯō-hū" or "formless" and "וָבֹ֔הוּ wā-ḇō-hū, "void". The earth didn't "become anything. It was formless and void of life.
The play on the sound of words is indicative of divine judgment.
Comparing it to Lot's wife, the word used in Gen 19:2 is "וַתְּהִ֖י wat-tə-hî" meaning "and she became". Two completely different words (Gen 19:2 is a conjunctive phrase). (Please check BibleHub's Hebrew Text.)
Do you read and write ancient Hebrew?
According to a couple of sources from translators the verb is the same.
But I'll research your objection.

Author Custance, Donald Barnhouse, GH Pember, G. Bryant Rotherham are a few Hebrew language scholars who
point out "became" is an admissable rendering of the passage.
I mean scholars unlike myself who can translate ancient Hebrew to English.

I have read Donald Whitcomb's book "The Early Earth" as a vigorous criticism of anything but a YEC view of Genesis as you'd like.
It is not as if I have not been exposed to a vigorous defense against Destruction / Reconstruction.
While some good points have been raised, I am going to stick with the earth being found waste and void by the seer because
of a pre-adamic divine judgment.

I see that you are using the Revised Common Version (which I appreciate your referencing). According to one website that talks about the RcV, it states:
I am using the Recovery Version for the most part. The software of the website I think has a way of making references link to
some English Version kind of automatically.

King James will do if anyone prefers.
What comes from the mouth of God is like His own heart - pure, righteous, orderly, peaceful.

KJV - Does the spring, out of the same opening, gush forth the sweet and the bitter? (James 3:11KJV)

The first thing God spoke in Genesis was to repel the darkness.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Genesis 1:3)

John illusion to this in John 1:3 indicates something of light and life overcoming an opposing force.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (John 1:4KJV)
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (v.5)

Here we have God overcoming the opposing force of darkness.
This gives us ground to believe the darkness in Genesis was indicative of Satan's opposition to divine life, light, and orderly purpose.

The Apostle Paul's illusion to Genesis concerning Christ shinning into our hearts is along the same line - God overcoming that which is anti-God.


Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts to illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 4:6RcV)

"...the RCV aims to make updates to words and phrases so that they are better understood by the everyday reader who may not read the Scriptures with the aid of commentaries. Care has been taken so that changes to the text are not theologically motivated. " (The Holy Bible: Revised Common Version (RCV).​
Renown New Testament Scholar F.F. Bruce I think would not so recommend the RcV as reliable if it were a loose paraphrase.

Refer to comments on the Recovery Version at Comments on the Recovery Version

-------------------------------------------------

England

I have read with interest the copies of translations of New Testament epistles in the Recovery Version. This is a version which I had not previously met. The version seems to me to be an accurate and fairly literal rendering of the Greek. The user of this version will get a precise impression of what the sacred text says.

With all good wishes:
Yours Sincerely,
F.F. Bruce
---------------------------------------------------------
While I appreciate what efforts might have gone into this translation, updating things to fit our common language is not always helpful as one can see by the above example. As much care that might have been taken, the best of people are still people at best. As this example shows, there is a vast difference between the earth being "formless and void" verses "became..." It is always useful to look at the original translation which many study tools allow you to do.
It is "useful" you say. But you may do so selectively to confirm what you already believe. This can be "traditional flavor" reading sometimes rather than delving into what is really revealed in Scripture. I am not immuned

Reading a good English translation we notice that God plainly tells us that He did not create the world in such a state.
Three rednerings below of Isaiah 45:18.

Berean Standard Bible
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens—He is God; He formed the earth and fashioned it; He established it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

King James Bible
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

New King James Version
For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Genesis verse 2 seems to me to describe conditions that existed before God created the earth.
The land was buried beneath the death waters.
It is a hint of the Son of God resurrecting from the dead I believe.

All life commenced on the land after it had been made to appear from beneath the death waters.
It was raised on the THIRD day. You see God is way, way ahead of us. And Christ the Son of God is central to the whole
revelation of the entire Bible.

And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear; and it was so.

And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas; and God saw that it was good.

And God said, Let the earth sprout grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit according to their kind with their seed in them upon the earth; and it was so.

And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed according to their kind, and trees bearing fruit with their seed in them according to their kind; and God saw that it was good.

And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. (Genesis 1:9-13)


As the life came out of the land as the writer indicates so our own divine life came out of the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3RcV)

The divine life which we will enjoy for eternity came to us through the resurrection of Christ on the third day.
His resurrection is our regeneration. And even as far back a Genesis this gospel was being announced to us in the account of
the six days there.

The negative symbols of the SEA is of sin and death and the fallen world. And it is no accident that at the end of the
Bible not only there is no more death. But there is no more SEA. So the Scripture is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.
The SEA burying the land beneath it from under which the land was raised on the third day points to Christ overcoming death and
him who has the might of death - the devil. (Hebrews 2:14)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (rev. 21:1,2)
 
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The question I posed in this thread is "Why is the AGE of the earth important to you?"

It should be important I think that Christians recognize the pre-adamic career of Satan
as to why he so opposes man. This stripping of the Devil naked as to his motives and schemes

is important in the church co-overcoming with Christ.

From man's creation it was ordained he guard God's interests on the earth.
Recognizing the pre-adamic career of Satan does not lead me to believe that he had to exist before creation week. It is my presupposition that angels were created on day one. It is clear by day seven that the design of everything is to worship God alone and the motives of the devil to rebel was based on jealousy.

As far as the disagreement I had with you for saying that the church crushes the head of the serpent, I think I get your point anyway and maybe it's not worth arguing over. You were saying that it is through the cooperation of Christ as head of the church that this pictures his people corporately crushing the serpent's head. I think that makes sense actually.
 
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oikonomia

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Recognizing the pre-adamic career of Satan does not lead me to believe that he had to exist before creation week. It is my presupposition that angels were created on day one.
Okay. I always on the lookout for brothers who cannot believe in the unspecified interval yet are astute to the church's spiritual
warfare.
It is clear by day seven that the design of everything is to worship God alone and the motives of the devil to rebel was based on jealousy.
So true. This rebel starts out as a loser and ends as an everlasting total defeated loser.

As far as the disagreement I had with you for saying that the church crushes the head of the serpent, I think I get your point anyway and maybe it's not worth arguing over.
It should be examined. If you have the urge to inspect it further go ahead.
I would ask you to read soon the story of Gideon's small army in Judges starting in chapter 7 on.

What do you think this account could mean to us today?
You know the things written in the Old Testament were for our admonition and serve as examples to us.

You were saying that it is through the cooperation of Christ as head of the church that this pictures his people corporately crushing the serpent's head. I think that makes sense actually.
Amen. May the Lord have mercy on us. The tide of the world is reaching higher and higher around the believers.
We need His speaking clearly as to a practical way to go forward.

I may write more on this latter.
 
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HarleyER

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The play on the sound of words is indicative of divine judgment.

Do you read and write ancient Hebrew?
According to a couple of sources from translators the verb is the same.
But I'll research your objection.

Author Custance, Donald Barnhouse, GH Pember, G. Bryant Rotherham are a few Hebrew language scholars who
point out "became" is an admissable rendering of the passage.
I mean scholars unlike myself who can translate ancient Hebrew to English.

I have read Donald Whitcomb's book "The Early Earth" as a vigorous criticism of anything but a YEC view of Genesis as you'd like.
It is not as if I have not been exposed to a vigorous defense against Destruction / Reconstruction.
While some good points have been raised, I am going to stick with the earth being found waste and void by the seer because
of a pre-adamic divine judgment.
In the 50+ years that I have been a Christian, I never gave Genesis 1-11 any thought. I just accepted it. But I must admit if you would have asked me, I would have probably said I believed in theistic evolution. That was before we did an intense Bible study on Genesis 1-11 last year. If one wants to be true to the scriptures, there is no doubt about creation being a literal seven days.

I remember two weeks after I came to a saving knowledge of Christ arguing with the pastor's wife that the Virgin Birth took place simply because that is what the Scriptures tells us. Genesis 1-11 isn't any different.

I like F.F. Bruce but even the best of Christians goes off the rails sometimes. As far as the Recovery Bible, I did some research. This alone would make me skeptical of this translation.

What GotQuestions.org has to say about the Recovery Bible:

The Recovery Version of the Bible is a direct English translation of the Scriptures, produced and published by Living Stream Ministries, part of the Local Church movement. The relationship between the Local Church and the Recovery Version of the Bible may or may not raise questions about its trustworthiness, depending on how one views this particular group. At the very least, one should be cautioned to treat the specific translations and footnotes of the Recovery Version with caution, if not a large dose of skepticism.​
The Recovery Version is presented as a formal translation, and most analysts would agree that it uses an extremely literal approach. From an objective standpoint, the text follows reasonably closely to accepted manuscripts of the Bible, with some editorial license in which ones to follow. In some cases, this results in the use of phrases that are nearly meaningless in English. The book also includes extensive footnotes—so many that they could be fairly described as a commentary. The Recovery Version has raised some caution flags over particular translated passages, as well as the content of these footnotes.​
The general opinion of Witness Lee’s theology is mixed, and the same goes for the content of the Recovery Version. Both feature confusing and sometimes contradictory accounts of doctrines such as the Trinity and human nature. According to supporters of Local Church, this is just a matter of cultural confusion, and taking all of the commentary in context results in an orthodox view of theology. According to detractors, the Recovery Version is the result of beliefs that are either aberrant or conflicted, or both. Also, the fact that the names and credentials of the translators are not publicly available is a legitimate source of suspicion.​
Given that the Bible was not originally written in English, differences between various versions are not necessarily a problem. And, as compared to cult-specific efforts such as the New World Translation, the Recovery Version does not appear to have an overtly biased approach to translation. In fact, its stated purpose is to avoid such bias, resulting in sometimes overly literal phrasing. Then again, there are already English translations aimed at literalness, such as the NASB and the Amplified Bible, reducing the need for translations like the Recovery Version.​
As a lesser-known and lesser-studied version, it would be impossible for Got Questions to adamantly endorse or condemn the Recovery Version of the Bible. However, given some of its widely noted flaws, it should be handled with caution and only in conjunction with other, less worrisome translations. What is the Recovery Version of the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
What GotQuestions says about the Local Church Movement (makers of the Recovery Bible)

There are many people, some of them formerly involved in the Local Church, who are absolutely convinced that the Local Church is a cult, or at least a non-biblical and non-evangelical movement. The more we research the Local Church, however, the more we run into widely divergent views of the movement. Due to the major concerns many people have about the Local Church, we strongly advise you to use the utmost caution and discernment before visiting or joining the Local Church movement. Here are some sites at which you could pursue further research into the Local Church / Witness Lee / Living Stream movement:​
Witness Lee was the protégé of his predecessor, Watchman Nee, a well-known missionary in China. The Local Church movement was founded in China by Nee and brought to America in 1962 by Witness Lee. Thus began a long and strange saga of charges, counter-charges, lawsuits, strife, and misunderstandings between the Local Church movement and the evangelical community that has left much wreckage in its wake, and has yet to be fully resolved. Foremost in the controversy is whether the Local Church is a legitimate movement within Christianity or a cult. Statements made by Lee over the years have caused his organization to be described as a cult by such counter-cult organizations as the Christian Research Institute—under both founder Walter Martin and current president Hank Hanegraaff—and the Spiritual Counterfeits Project. However, a 50-page series of articles in a 2009 edition of the CRI Journal has come out strongly in favor of Lee’s teachings and the Local Church movement.​
The history of the conflict between Witness Lee and his Local Church movement—also known as the “Lord’s Recovery Movement,” along with their publishing arm, Living Stream Ministry (LSM)—and the counter-cult establishment is far too long for a detailed recounting here, but those who are interested in the full story can access it through the CRI website https://www.equip.org/PDF/EnglishOpt.pdf. Since the publication of CRI’s retraction of their former stand, churches and ministries have had to rethink and reinvestigate their stand on Witness Lee and the Local Church.​
For the purposes of this article, the major causes of controversy between the Local Church and the Christian community in the West will be addressed. The concerns raised by counter-cult organizations about Lee’s teachings center primarily on four areas: the nature of God, the nature of man, the legitimacy of evangelical churches and denominations, and the lawsuits brought against Evangelical churches, publishers, and individuals by the Local Church. We will look at them one by one.​
Regarding Lee’s views on the theological doctrines of God and man, the controversy centers around statements which are “red flags” to evangelicals, particularly those in the West. This is an important factor in this discussion because it appears much of the controversy could have been avoided if only Lee and his followers had made an effort to understand the Western Christian culture into which they were moving. Part of the training of Western missionaries sent to foreign countries is sensitivity to other cultures. Unfortunately, in bringing their doctrines to the West, no effort was made to “Westernize” them, and this was the source of much of the confusion, misunderstandings, and recriminations that resulted. For one thing, Lee’s method of teaching—to make radical statements and then balance them elsewhere in his teachings—proved to be antithetical to the Western idea of “say what you mean and mean what you say.” Lee’s doctrinal statements on the nature of God and the nature of man are perfect examples. In one of his messages, he states, “The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism” (Life Messages, p. 164). Naturally, this is enough to inflame Western evangelicals, who proudly affirm the doctrine of the Trinity as it has been passed down from the great theologians of our Western Christian heritage. To judge it to be “grossly inadequate” by Lee raised legitimate concerns about Lee himself. Closer scrutiny of Lee’s teachings elsewhere, however, brings to light that they actually agree with evangelical orthodoxy.​
The same can be said of his teachings on the nature of man. Some of his most inflammatory statements are in regard to what appears, on the surface, to assert the deity of man. In an LSM publication, A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing (p. 54), Lee states, ”My burden is to show you clearly that God’s economy and plan is to make Himself man and to make us, His created beings, God.” On page 53 we read, “We are born of God; hence, in this sense, we are God.” In the same publication, Lee refers to the Triune God as now the ‘four-in-one’ God, with man as the fourth person. Nothing raises a red flag to evangelicals more quickly than any notion that man is God, because we are rightly taught that it is the original lie from the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:5) and is the same lie propagated by cults and false religions such as Hinduism, New Age, and Mormonism throughout history. To the Western mind, at least, imparting the idea of any kind of godhood to those who struggle against the sin nature is disastrous. Western Christians, already steeped in the philosophy of freedom, autonomy, individuality, and the triumph of the human will—and the pride such thinking inevitably produces—need not be encouraged to see themselves as divine. But the CRI researchers found that a closer examination of context and terminology reveals that Lee’s views on the “deification” of man (another unfortunate choice of words and a red flag term) do not really mean that at all. The sentence after the “in this sense, we are God” quote reads, “Nevertheless, we must know that we do not share God’s Person and cannot be worshiped by others.” Herein lies the problem. Putting the two statements together, Lee is essentially saying we are God, but we are not God. It is no wonder that confusion is rampant.​
Regarding the third area of controversy, this is what Witness Lee has said in his own publications about Christians and Christianity: “We do not care for Christianity, we do not care for Christendom, we do not care for the Roman Catholic Church, and we do not care for all the denominations, because in the Bible it says that the great Babylon is fallen. ...​
As one of the LSM leaders expressed it, “We are not out to proclaim that the denominations are Babylon.” However, Lee’s own statement, quoted above, that “we do not care for all the denominations, because in the Bible it says that the great Babylon is fallen,” seems a direct contradiction, whether intentional or not.​
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Ace777

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This corrupted serpent must have had a previous station from which he was judged, condemned, cast out of, descended in morality and
and responsibility prior to the account of Genesis 3:1.
Revelation 12:7 "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him".

Some people say this was at the time of Pangea and the "dragon" was mad at God so he got creation to destroy itself. If we keep reading in Revelation we see that God has redemption all worked out from the beginning of the foundation of the Earth.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”


Yes we have dominion so it is out job to clean this mess up that the devil has made out of God's Creation.
 
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Ace777

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the design of everything is to worship God alone
There is NOTHING better than to worship God because that puts us into alignment with Him, HIs plan and His purpose. We read in Job that God allows satan to test man.

Job 1 "9Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have You not placed a hedge on every side around him and his household and all that he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But stretch out Your hand and strike all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face.”

12“Very well,” said the LORD to Satan. “Everything he has is in your hands, but you must not lay a hand on the man himself.”

Genesis 3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

God has confidence in us and He allows us to be tested. He wants to redeem the Earth and we are a part of that redemption.

There is controversy but many believe Job was written before Moses. Or was a part of the "oral tradition".
 
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oikonomia

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Revelation 12:7 "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him".

Some people say this was at the time of Pangea and the "dragon" was mad at God so he got creation to destroy itself. If we keep reading in Revelation we see that God has redemption all worked out from the beginning of the foundation of the Earth.
I would want to know if you wish to converse with me or just report what "some people" say?
The timing of the expulsion of the accuser is just before the last 3.5 years of this age.

This must be the case because we are told that he has come down in great rage and has "a short time" left to do his worst.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:12)

The "short time" here is not the last six thousand years human history but the "a thousand two hundred and sixty days" mentioned in
verse 6.


And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:6)

No need to assign this period to the theorized existence of Pangea

Having said that, that is not to say throughout human history Satan has been opposing the total body of God's people on the earth.

This is indicated by the scene in heaven of the dragon standing ready to devour the stronger component within the Woman of universal brightness. That is he has always be opposed to the stronger part, the overcomers, from coming forth from the total body of God's people.

And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth.
And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. (Rev. 12:1-3)

The scene is seen in heaven to demonstrate it is a constant principle since the first generation of God's people on earth - starting with Adam and Eve.

In principle the stronger component is WITHIN the total body of God's people as she is in pain to deliver the remnant of overcomers
who will possess the authority to be co-kings with Christ.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

This Universal Bright Woman is not Israel alone. Nor is she the Virgin Mary. Nor is she only the New Testament Church.

1.) The major part of her body is clothed in the saints of New Testament grace as the sun.
a woman clothed with the sun, (v.1b)

2.) Subject to her - under her feet is the age of the Law. The law is a reflection of the nature of Christ so it is seen as the reflecting moon.
and the moon underneath her feet, (v.1c)

3.)
She is crown with the patriarchs of the Old Testament time before the law was given. They are the exalted heroes of the faith in pre-law times. and on her head a crown of twelve stars; (v.12e)

The Woman of universal brightness signifies the totality of God's people on earth in the dispensation before the law, during the law, and during the church age.

Within the total body of God's saints there has always been a stronger component who fights the spiritual warefare - this is the man-child
The original stronger one among all of God's people winning the victory on behalf of all God's saints is the Son of God - Christ.
Therefore it is not wrong to seen Jesus Christ must be the stronger man-child who is PART of the Woman yet also distinctly brought forth
from her midst.

The corporate man-child is not the individual Christ but the Christ wrought into His overcoming ones.
They have not loved their soul lives unto death but have been saturated and permeated with the life of Jesus.

It is evident that not only Christ is assigned to reign over the nations in the millennium with an iron rod to shepherd them.
But to those who overcome, they TOO are awarded the co-rulership with Him to be co-kings.

Christ is the strong Shepherd - And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; (Rev. 19:15a)

To the overcomers Christ grants them too to shepherd the nations as He has received.
And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (REv. 2:26,27)1


This man-child is therefore the corporate overcoming stronger component among all of God's saints.
In other words they are the NORMAL recipients of grace.
They are not above the standard of the believers. Rather they are simply AT the expected standard.

It is abnormal that saints of God should not be overcoming ones - "more than conquerors" (Rom. 8:37)
But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us. (Romans 8:37)


It is God's purpose that ALL of the saved eventually be conformed to the image of Christ the Firstborn Son.
So the overcomers are not an elite. They are those who only attained to what they were suppose to attain to through
Christ's all-sufficient empowering grace.

In fact the normal attitude of victorious Christians should be that they are unworthy and only did what was commanded of them
to do.

So also you, when you do all the things which are ordered you, say,
We are unprofitable slaves; we have done what we ought to have done. (Luke 17:10)


Just before the last three and one half years of this age a REMNANT of overcomers will
be resurrected and raptured to the throne of God as the long expected man-child

The far greater majority of defeated saints left upon the earth will pass through the testing of the great tribulation.
But God will supply them. And from even their midst others will be martyred and granted to reign with Christ in the millennium.

Our enjoyment of grace until then is to learn to reign in life over our fallen natures through Christ.
Such faithfulness will cause the amplification of ability as we taste the powers of the age to come.

. . . have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, (Heb. 6:4b,5)


It is therefore not insignificant that we learn to enjoy the indwelling Jesus Christ to allow His Spirit
to furnish us with self-control. For he who reigns over his own spirit is in God's eyes stronger than a protector of a whole city.

He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty; / And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city. (Prov. 16:32)
 
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oikonomia

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In the 50+ years that I have been a Christian, I never gave Genesis 1-11 any thought. I just accepted it. But I must admit if you would have asked me, I would have probably said I believed in theistic evolution. That was before we did an intense Bible study on Genesis 1-11 last year. If one wants to be true to the scriptures, there is no doubt about creation being a literal seven days.
I believe in seven days. I do not teach a Day Age theory.

I like F.F. Bruce but even the best of Christians goes off the rails sometimes. As far as the Recovery Bible, I did some research. This alone would make me skeptical of this translation.
The Recovery Version is avery good translation in more languages than just English.
And jut like Scoffied included notes in the Scoffield Bible JN Darby included notes in the Darby New Translation and Ryrie has notes in the Ryrie version of the Bible and many teachers included their study note in a Bible so Witness Lee has the right to have his notes included in the RcV.

I have no yet read all this post. I hope I am not going to just come to some dust thrown up into the air.
I mean finding critics for some reason on the Internet of anything is quite easy.

Those easily impressed should remember the Lord's words.
Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets. (Luke 6:26)

For a cheerful defense of many criticism of the local churches and of the late brother Witness Lee I include
the apologetics ministry to deal with serious objections of brought up by some Christians. Look over the articles
all Berean type seeking brothers and sisters.

Sheperding Words

Shepherding Words – From the co-workers in the Lord’s recovery in North America

Defense and Confimration of the Gospel (a PDF)

https://contendingforthefaith.org/pdf/concerning our teachings.pdf

Affirmation and Critique (A theological journal)

Affirmation & Critique - A Journal of Christian Thought

What GotQuestions.org has to say about the Recovery Bible:

The general opinion of Witness Lee’s theology is mixed,​
Point out the two or three MOST striking cases of "mixture" please.
I mean what you yourself have ascertained as destructively "MIXED" bad teaching of the late Witness Lee.

and the same goes for the content of the Recovery Version. Both feature confusing and sometimes contradictory accounts of doctrines such as the Trinity and human nature.​
In your next post could you point out in any footnote or translation in the Recovery Version what you consider your MOST
bothering "CONFUSING" or "CONTRADICTORY" doctrinal stance on either the Trinity or the human nature of man in the
publications of Witness Lee?

I have been fellowshipping with the local churches for about 50 years since 1974.
I never looked back to the denominations and found exactly what I was looking for in Christian oneness.

Please indicate why I should be concerned having both written to and spoken to Brother Lee on occasion and
sat under many messages given by him when he was alive.

Where are your most serious concerns ?

According to supporters of Local Church, this is just a matter of cultural confusion, and taking all of the commentary in context results in an orthodox view of theology. According to detractors, the Recovery Version is the result of beliefs that are either aberrant or conflicted, or both. Also, the fact that the names and credentials of the translators are not publicly available is a legitimate source of suspicion.​
In your next post of two please point out the "abberant" teaching from the local churches which concerns you the most.
Don't save your most striking example for latter down the road.
Please let me see it up front first.

However, given some of its widely noted flaws, it should be handled with caution and only in conjunction with other, less worrisome translations. What is the Recovery Version of the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
What is an example of your noted flaw which you consider very serious in the Recovery Version of the Bible published by
Living Stream Ministry?

You invite those who have quetions to ask. So I hope you know something first hand that you could
indicate as a problem with my Recovery Version Bible in its translation of in the study notes mostly authored by
Witness Lee.

Let's start with the footnotes or translation about the Trinity or about the nature of man.

I too can cut and paste long paragraphs. I'd rather we had more discussion one on one from our own thoughts.
As for publication by the late Witness Lee I suggest instead of lifting quotes here and there you go
to SPECIFIC publications where that particular subject matter was dealt with.

Many publications are online to read.
Concerning the Parts of Man and/or the Trinity specifically -

The Three Parts of Man and the Dispensing of the Triune God CWWL, 1984, vol. 5Witness Lee

The Triune God's Revelation and His Move CWWL, 1994–1997, vol. 3God's EconomyWitness Lee

The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man CWWL, 1990, vol. 1TrainingWitness Lee

The Truth concerning the Triune God and Crucial Points of Truth and Practice CWWL, 1975–1976, vol. 1Witness Lee


See www.ministrybooks.org
 
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oikonomia

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Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets. (Luke 6:36)

We give no occasion of stumbling in anything that the ministry may not be faulted,

. . .
Through glory and dishonor, through evil report and good report; as deceivers and yet true;

As unknown and yet well known; as dying and yet behold we live; as being disciplined and yet not being put to death; (2 Cor. 6:3,8,9)
 
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oikonomia

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Who here thinks that if the Apostle John were to appear somehow speaking and writing to the Christian public
there would be no Google searched articles sorely critical of his ministry? and that from mainline Christianity - NO criticisms and rumors?

If the Apostle Paul we somehow to be able to take a time machine and speak to the Christian public today,
how many Christians think on the Internet there would only be glowing positive recommendations of his ministry from Christians?
 
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Ace777

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I would want to know if you wish to converse with me or just report what "some people" say?
NO ONE questions Pangea. The discussion has to do with connections. Yes LOTS of people question if the two events are connected. Although it is the YEC people that claim they are one and the same. You seem to think this is an either or situation and I am saying they can both be true because we are talking about two different events. That seem to be connected in some way. But according to entanglement everything is connected no matter how far apart in distance or time.

So you have four choices. One they are connected, Two they are one and the same, Three they are not connected of Four none of the above.

In Science we have the singularity and God says that He is one. DEuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD". So all is one and all is connected in God. Science can not really tell us what a singularity is so I can see where people would have trouble seeing the connection between two similar events.
 
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HarleyER

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I believe in seven days. I do not teach a Day Age theory.


The Recovery Version is avery good translation in more languages than just English.
And jut like Scoffied included notes in the Scoffield Bible JN Darby included notes in the Darby New Translation and Ryrie has notes in the Ryrie version of the Bible and many teachers included their study note in a Bible so Witness Lee has the right to have his notes included in the RcV.

I have no yet read all this post. I hope I am not going to just come to some dust thrown up into the air.
I mean finding critics for some reason on the Internet of anything is quite easy.

Those easily impressed should remember the Lord's words.
Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets. (Luke 6:26)

For a cheerful defense of many criticism of the local churches and of the late brother Witness Lee I include
the apologetics ministry to deal with serious objections of brought up by some Christians. Look over the articles
all Berean type seeking brothers and sisters.

Sheperding Words

Shepherding Words – From the co-workers in the Lord’s recovery in North America

Defense and Confimration of the Gospel (a PDF)

https://contendingforthefaith.org/pdf/concerning our teachings.pdf

Affirmation and Critique (A theological journal)

Affirmation & Critique - A Journal of Christian Thought


Point out the two or three MOST striking cases of "mixture" please.
I mean what you yourself have ascertained as destructively "MIXED" bad teaching of the late Witness Lee.


In your next post could you point out in any footnote or translation in the Recovery Version what you consider your MOST
bothering "CONFUSING" or "CONTRADICTORY" doctrinal stance on either the Trinity or the human nature of man in the
publications of Witness Lee?

I have been fellowshipping with the local churches for about 50 years since 1974.
I never looked back to the denominations and found exactly what I was looking for in Christian oneness.

Please indicate why I should be concerned having both written to and spoken to Brother Lee on occasion and
sat under many messages given by him when he was alive.

Where are your most serious concerns ?


In your next post of two please point out the "abberant" teaching from the local churches which concerns you the most.
Don't save your most striking example for latter down the road.
Please let me see it up front first.


What is an example of your noted flaw which you consider very serious in the Recovery Version of the Bible published by
Living Stream Ministry?

You invite those who have quetions to ask. So I hope you know something first hand that you could
indicate as a problem with my Recovery Version Bible in its translation of in the study notes mostly authored by
Witness Lee.

Let's start with the footnotes or translation about the Trinity or about the nature of man.

I too can cut and paste long paragraphs. I'd rather we had more discussion one on one from our own thoughts.
As for publication by the late Witness Lee I suggest instead of lifting quotes here and there you go
to SPECIFIC publications where that particular subject matter was dealt with.

Many publications are online to read.
Concerning the Parts of Man and/or the Trinity specifically -

The Three Parts of Man and the Dispensing of the Triune God CWWL, 1984, vol. 5Witness Lee

The Triune God's Revelation and His Move CWWL, 1994–1997, vol. 3God's EconomyWitness Lee

The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man CWWL, 1990, vol. 1TrainingWitness Lee

The Truth concerning the Triune God and Crucial Points of Truth and Practice CWWL, 1975–1976, vol. 1Witness Lee


See www.ministrybooks.org
"Please indicate why I should be concerned having both written to and spoken to Brother Lee on occasion and
sat under many messages given by him when he was alive. Where are your most serious concerns ?"

I also hate posting long posts. But did you read the post from GotQuestions which details the concerns of Witness Lee and Watchman Lee? Simply put, they hold a mixture of trinitatian and modalism. They are not true trinitartians. This was branded as heresy at an early church council.

As far as speaking falsely against someone, one might also remember the following:

Matthew 7:15
“Be on your guard against false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.

Christians are too quick to accept anyone who calls themself a Christian.
 
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oikonomia

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I also hate posting long posts.
You can just post a short one based on your own experience.
Otherwise it is too vague, too general.

But did you read the post from GotQuestions which details the concerns of Witness Lee and Watchman Lee? Simply put, they hold a mixture of trinitatian and modalism.
That's old incorrect gossip. I heard it in 1978 from "The Bible Answer Man" Walter Martin.
And his predeccessor Hank Hannegraff did what Martin should have done and studied the messages of Lee carefully.
And Hannegraff of Christian Research Institute (CRI) dedicated an entire issue of their magezine to set the record straight.

"We Were Wrong" We Were Wrong! Hank Hanegraaff (From the President) (A Reassessment of the “Local Church” Movement of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee) - Christian Research Institute

Also members of Fuller Theological Seminary also did a requested in depth study of Lee's writings and
sought to set the record straight that whatever else problems had with the local churches there was nothing
unorthodox about Lee's or Nee's expounding on the triune God.


"An Open Letter" Fuller Theological Seminary — An Open Letter

They are not true trinitartians. This was branded as heresy at an early church council.
You don't know what you're talking about. You're passing on gossip, long debunked gossip from
"The Godmen" by Neil Duddy and "The Mindbenders" by Jack Sparks, books long ago shown as fallacious and slanderous.

Read "Modalism, Tritheism, or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God" by Ron Kangas.

Modalism, Tritheism, or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God – Contending for the Faith


As far as speaking falsely against someone, one might also remember the following:

Matthew 7:15
“Be on your guard against false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
That is true. And you are not able yourself to indicate false teaching in any of the study notes of the RcV.
And you hate to write long articles suddenly so you have an excuse not to write a reasonably concise valid criticism
of anything.

It doesn't have to be too long IF you know what you're talking about. But you don't. You're passing on long debunked gossip
of a few that tried snd failed to discredit Witness Lee.

Brother Lee and Brother Nee are gone now. And the critics will have to find someone else to blame for
the ongoing flurishing of the local churches.

These two men spoke the same thing essentially. And men tried to draw a artificial wedge between Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.
They whitewashed the tombs of the prophets. I mean they spoke evilly of Nee while he lived. And then after his death some
changed their attitude to venerate him as a hero. Many Christian bookstores have books by Watchman Nee.
And though an effort has been made to blackball Witness Lee when he spoke the same things, his teachings are more
and more seeping through to be used by some of Christianity's popular ministers.

I do not always fault them for this because the truth is the truth. And like you many were just misled.

Then when his co-worker came to the Western world some circulated
evil reports about him.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous," (Matt. 23:29 King James)


You may be young and not realizing how you are being led astray this way.
But you don't have to take my word for it if you read some of Open Letter or We Were Wrong by researches outside of
the circle of publishers of Lee's and Nee's books.

We should judge not by appearance but with righteous truthful accuracy.
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge the righteous judgment. (John 7:24)

Christians are too quick to accept anyone who calls themself a Christian.
Are you suggesting that Witness Lee was not a Christian?
Are you suggesting that Watchman Nee was not a Christian?

No I did not read your You Have Questions website. I have been hearing those rehashed wrong slanders for many years.
The result of your mentioning them here is that some seeking people will be curious and soon find that both the Bible and servants of
the Lord like Witness Lee are misrepresented today.

You're just not able to clearly point out yourself problems with the nature of man or the Trinity in
any message on the subject matter by Witness Lee.

You said you didn't agree with the RcV's rendering of Genesis 1:2.
But that doesn't have anything to do with the three-oneness of God or the tripartite nature of man.
And it doesn't put into question anyone's salvation as a Christian believer.
 
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oikonomia

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NO ONE questions Pangea. The discussion has to do with connections. Yes LOTS of people question if the two events are connected. Although it is the YEC people that claim they are one and the same. You seem to think this is an either or situation and I am saying they can both be true because we are talking about two different events. That seem to be connected in some way. But according to entanglement everything is connected no matter how far apart in distance or time.

So you have four choices. One they are connected, Two they are one and the same, Three they are not connected of Four none of the above.

In Science we have the singularity and God says that He is one. DEuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD". So all is one and all is connected in God. Science can not really tell us what a singularity is so I can see where people would have trouble seeing the connection between two similar events.
Sorry Ace77. My comment was unnecessarily defensive. Another poster got me into a defensive mood, not you.

Maybe I'll take it up latter. I mean singularities and Pangea and things like that.
 
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Revelation Lad

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The age of the earth is important because it speaks to the accuracy of the Bible and who God is.

Those who see the period of 6 days as unrealistic by scientific standards should admit the scientific standard (Einstein's relativity) does require different measurements of time (observers with different frames of reference will get different measurements of time). They may object to the extreme nature of the differences, but they should admit the Bible would be wrong if it agreed with man's calculations. They should also admit the first 24-hours are objectively correct. I'm pretty sure if Euclid or Plato described the first 24-hours of the universe correctly, the rest of what they said would be given consideration, not dismissed out of hand.

The problem with the old earth is it is inevitably linked with evolution. It would be difficult to believe one should worship a God who used, or tolerated millions of years of death as the means of preparing the planet for man.
 
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Job 33:6

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The age of the earth is important because it speaks to the accuracy of the Bible and who God is.

Those who see the period of 6 days as unrealistic by scientific standards should admit the scientific standard (Einstein's relativity) does require different measurements of time (observers with different frames of reference will get different measurements of time). They may object to the extreme nature of the differences, but they should admit the Bible would be wrong if it agreed with man's calculations. They should also admit the first 24-hours are objectively correct. I'm pretty sure if Euclid or Plato described the first 24-hours of the universe correctly, the rest of what they said would be given consideration, not dismissed out of hand.

The problem with the old earth is it is inevitably linked with evolution. It would be difficult to believe one should worship a God who used, or tolerated millions of years of death as the means of preparing the planet for man.
Are you aware that Genesis and the old testament shares an ancient isrealites cosmology, and that it doesn't reflect a scientific or plainly historical account of events?
Screenshot_20240406-173921~2.png
 
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oikonomia

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The problem with the old earth is it is inevitably linked with evolution. It would be difficult to believe one should worship a God who used, or tolerated millions of years of death as the means of preparing the planet for man.
I don't have that difficulty. Not knowing how vast the universe is or how vast time itself is doesn't diminish my
faith in God or in His eternal purpose.

When one sperm cell fertilizes a egg isn't it maybe a million others seemed useless?
Naturally we might think God was wasteful and only needed to eject a few sperm cells into the female uterus.

The significance of the result of that ONE successful sperm with that ONE egg makes all the difference.
And we have to marvel at the Creator's ability, knowledge, and know-how.

Big space doesn't dampen my worship of God.
Neither does the prospect of big time hamper my worship of God.
 
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Revelation Lad

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I agree with "big space." I don't believe "big space" is ever separated from "big time" meaning billions of years. So the significance of the one fertilization, according to the theory, is insufficient to explain what we see today. The initial miracle is the beginning of a string of innumerable deaths leading to the species we find today.
 
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oikonomia

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I agree with "big space." I don't believe "big space" is ever separated from "big time" meaning billions of years. So the significance of the one fertilization, according to the theory, is insufficient to explain what we see today. The initial miracle is the beginning of a string of innumerable deaths leading to the species we find today.
Let me clarify my post. I am not advocating macro evolution which I would consider just as much a miracle.
And I believe the seven days of Genesis was shown to the seer in the manner in which God wanted it to be seen.

I know by faith that God created the universe. (Heb. 11:3)
I think both big space and big time are probably all our senses can ascertain apart from revelation to faith.

Do you know how old the creation is? I don't.
I think I know by my senses that it is at least 74 years old. ( I was born in 1949 ).
Aside from this I must depend on God's revelation. He created it in the beginning (Gen. 1:1).
 
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